Home heating automation

copacetic

Check, yes our heating is ‘on’ 24/7 365 with the same temps pretty much. Occasionally might boost a room during the day in winter when working from home. We do have issues with this in summer mainly as we don’t have window detectors, so if you say open back windows and patio doors on our warm back of the house the cooler wind can cool down say the front hall/bathroom zone and it will kick in. Similarly opening windows to freshen up the house in autumn winter can kick the heating in quite quickly. We’ve 4 ufh zones, one radiatior zone and one hot water zone. We have weekend and weekday temp settings year round and some adjustment from work from home days.

deezell

The Tado 'Open Window Detection' works quite well. I've seen it come on in the kitchen when clearing the smell of burnt toast, or throwing some crumbs out to the birds on a cold morning which let's in a gush of cold air.

copacetic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121698359#Comment_121698359

Check, the heatmiser solution is to put 25€ sensors on each window and pair them to correct zone. For us that’s a lot of ugly sensors and the issue is that it’s the windows in other zones being open that can lead to a different zones heating coming on, but if you link a window to a few zones then you could be stopping heating coming on when you need it , it is an example of something you can’t do without the ‘smart’ hub

https://heatmisershop.co.uk/wireless-window-door-contact-sensor/

matrim

I have a Ember system with a hot water and 1 heating zone.

I got a tado to replace it (wireless receiver and 1 wireless stat for now). When I contact tado about installation instructions they said it wasn't compatible. But I'm sure people here have installed it.

Is there anyone that can give some advice about changing from Ember RF-27 to tado?

deezell

The incompatibility might arise if your system is using an Ember wireless HW thermostat to turn off the HW zone when the cylinder is heated to set temperature. Tado and virtually every other system just use their controller to TIME the HW events, with an optional cyclinder thermostat switch to interrupt the HW heating when the cylinder set temperature is reached. Check what you have, and report back. Also check if you have independent HW heating, with its own zone valve, so HW doesn't heat when CH only is on.

matrim

I have a HW thermostat on one zone of the ember (see pics)

I knew the tado would mean HW was no longer temp controlled but assumed that I could just make that work on a timer

PXL_20240224_172903296.jpg

PXL_20240224_172853787.jpg

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121813047#Comment_121813047

Yes you can do that. You could leave the Ember in place as the temperature control element of the HW system, but that's messy and hard to troubleshoot in the future. All you'll need to do to reinstate local cylinder temperature control is place a mechanical tank stat in the path of the timed live voltage to the HW zone valve. It's right there in the pictures. One of these in place of the Ember probe, twin wire up to the wiring centre box, and insert in the path to the HW valve timer live in.

I note the Ember HW probe is inserted very low, and is set to what looks like 16°? It's hardly acting as an accurate control of HW temperature with those settings, it seems like it only activates when the incoming cold water is below 16°.

matrim

The 16 reading was the current temp at that time as we had just had showers. The target temp is 58

the kelt

Looking for a bit of advice.

In our house 5 years, new build. Installed Nest at the time. 2 thermostats, one for upstairs, one for downstairs, downstairs thermostat also controls hot water (used boost function on downstairs thermostat to heat water)

To be honest haven’t been completely happy with them since day one. Upstairs thermostat constantly drops connection. I’ve already had to replace the upstairs thermostat as it just simply gave up (out of warranty) and this evening the heat link for downstairs just decided to pack it in.

Whats peoples experience in switching from nest to others? Been looking at the Hive system for example as seems most compatible with what I have.

My plan is to replace the downstairs thermostat with a new system (hive or different) and then when the upstairs eventually goes, which it will probably sooner rather than later replace that with an add on to downstairs.

Any advice on best way to go?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835437#Comment_121835437

Only to replace it all in one go and be done with it. The additional hive stat and receiver kit is only €88 exra for the CH mini hubless version for upstairs, You will already have the internet hub when you replace the downstairs CH +HW stat, both will use the same hub.

Pack up the functioning Nest and sell it on, they fetch decent money in the used market.

Nest are a queer fish in terms of communication, as the stat can be wired back (at low voltage) to the heatlink over the original wire pair from an existing wall stat, to receive power and data. Otherwise it uses a mesh network called 'Thread', running over a private WiFi layer called 'Weave' which connects the two devices. Internet connection is achieved with an actual WiFi connection from the thermostat to your router, hence it requires a powered connection using a mains adapter, or else powered from the mains connected heatlink though the old wires as mentioned. With Wifi, It's too power hungry for batteries.

It has an internal rechargeable battery though, so could be placed on a stand sans the power supply and moved about, to be chaged like a phone from time to time.

If wall mounted and wired. It was not a trivial exercise to ensure these wires were identified and fully isolated both ends from previous mains connection to avoid frying the stat, so I guess most installations used wireless connection and the power adapter the keep the stat running.

Dropout on wireless stats is an infrequent issue, you read posts about all brands very occasionally. With hive you can mount it in any reasonable location to control the zone, the tendency was hall and landing for downstairs/upstairs, alternatively livingroom/master bed as a better reflection of where people are. The Hive stats use the low power consumption Zigbee wireless protocol, well tried and tested.

the kelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121835687#Comment_121835687

Took your advice.

Installed the new hive system but cannot for the life of me get it to heat the hot water like I could with the nest.

CH is fine but no luck with the hot water, think I may have to give in and call a sparky.

deezell

HW wire to backplate terminal 3, HW On, and CH to terminal 4, CH On. Did you replace both stats? Did you use the Hive two channel receiver to replace the Downstairs Nest heatlink with HW and CH control. Did you try the app or the receiver HW boost button, and does it illuminate?

al2009

I've an Istabai controller set up, hub with 2 stats and 3 motorised valves, running over 10 years with no issues. Have replaced gas boiler with a heat pump, am using old boiler switch to turn heat pump on and off, looking to add another switch to ramp up set point on call from hot water tank. Went looking for switch from supplier in Cork but they've gone out of business, anyone know any suppliers here or an alternate switch that would work with the system? (have emailed their head office a few times, no response)

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121846423#Comment_121846423

They have an online shop for an additional boiler switch.

https://istabai.com/article/device/boiler-switch

Alternatively, as the existing boiler switch is wireless and calls the boiler (now heatpump) for all three zones, I'm assuming then that the Motorised zone valve relays were not used for this purpose, which is normal when boiler call for heat is wired. In this case you can use the idle relay in the HW zone valve to connect to the heatpump HW specific call for heat. It's a volt free two terminal relay, usually orange and grey wires from the zone valve. Save yourself €85.

al2009

Thanks @deezell that shop link wouldn't let me order anything. I'll have a look at what wires are where, all 3 motorised valves are in use but they are wireless / battery operation. thanks for the assist!

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121850306#Comment_121850306

How strange, they sound like radiator motorised valves adapted to control entire zones?. So you don't have any wires control signals except the output of the single wireless boiler switch. You could just install a timer switch to the the heatpump HW input, or something like a SonOff switch with app control

al2009

Yeah, works very well though, I'll look at sonoff, must check the actuators and see if there is a switch on it for position.

the kelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121843307#Comment_121843307

Thanks, only seen this now.

Only replaced downstairs.

Yes used the hive 2 channel receiver to replace downstairs nest.

Tried both app and receiver HW boost.

Yep it illuminates, I can even hear the click from the receiver but hit water doesn’t boost.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121854474#Comment_121854474

You'll have to check if live is appearing on the HW On terminal. It has happened that the live and neutral in are reversed, which would prevent a switched live to the On terminals but this would affect both CH and HW from operating. Also check if you have exactly linked the correct wires. The nest heatlink would have had bridging wires to the CH and HW NO terminals, while this is internally wired in the Hive receiver. You could hardwire the HW SL to the Live in to confirm that the HW zone valve is opening. Post a pic of the backplate wiring.

the kelt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121854509#Comment_121854509

CD3AB348-05F7-4B5A-8391-FD8A44D0FD31.jpeg

Thanks

bittihuduga

i have a Drayton wiser Thermostat 3 - 2 Heating Zones and Hot Water with vokera boiler. engineer was here today for an annual service and he felt these smart controllers if not used properly can reduce the life of boilers. if they use open therm then it is not an issue. but i dont think drayton wiser is compatible with open therm. anyone using open therm with drayton?

he was suggesting if just one rad calls for the heat, it is not an efficient use of the boiler.

i have 8 smart trvs in the house. so we call the heat depending where we are. now i doubt if its an efficient approach.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121857490#Comment_121857490

He shouldn't worry too much. No boiler that I've heard of can burn at a lower rate, even with OT. They just modulate On/Off. The limiting factor is the upper temperature set on the boiler. OT allows the demand to be modulated to the lowest temperature that still maintains target temperature in the demand zone. The OT equipped thermostat would generally be the only CH device. Other rooms with passive or smart trvs cutting in and out would alter it's response time, and it would increase modulation as demand rises. Ultimately, lowest temperature flow which ensures maximum condensing efficiency would not always be possible unless you were willing to endure lengthy warmup times, so the system would need to operate at a higher temperature for that period of full demand.

With on/off boiler switching, you can easily set the flow temperature low enough to ensure decent condensing recovery of heat, provided its sufficient to heat all zones together.

Your engineer is probably concerned about cycling, whereby the flow temperature rises to the set boiler limit because demand is so low. If that limit is reasonably low, then it will just cycle safely at and under that temperature as the flow cools. Unlike mechanical wall thermostats, smart thermostats can introduce an element of modulation as they monitor the measured room temperature and the rate of change. They will then proceed to call the boiler in short bursts, which mimics the effect of modulation. The thermostat has no knowledge of the flow temperature, but can quickly deduce the duty cycle needed to maintain the set temperature, based on rate of change of the temperature, and will prod the boiler on and off for short periods.

If you are heating HW from your Vokera and it has an OT connection, and is a combi, it is possible to fire it at a higher temperature for HW demand. With a single flow system boiler it should still be possible with OT, usually such boilers have a charge over valve. With a zoned system, say 2 CH an HW, generally OT is only available to the main CH zone. There are only a few smart stat systems that can manage zone switching and handover of OT from one to another, plus accommodation of both zones with two active temperature targets. Adding in smart TRVs really means OT is redundant, as the system equilibrium keeps changing.

Tad0 is particularly good at modulation, and if you have a standard 3 zone s plan valved system, it doesn't particularly pay attention to what each zone is doing, as it will trim its demand for its own zone dynamically, as long as the boiler temperature is not capped so low as to be limited in its actual maximum output. Perhaps that's your engineers concern, a boiler that's coststantly short firing, but there's a difference in cycling on and off as a very high max temperature is exceeded, and modulating on and off while floyoy w is comfortably below the max limit, which you can set anyway. Generally I read that 65° is often used for the boiler limit, sufficient to ensure a reasonable rate of heat if all rads are open, sufficient to transfer heat to a HW cylinder water at about 55-60°, and yet not so high as to stress the boiler if TRV's have restricted the demand. The smart stat calling on behalf of the TRV's should be able to modulate it's cycle based on the TRV rate of rise.

bittihuduga

thank you very much @deezell for the detailed information. i appreciate that. you had also guided me when i replaced my CTC with drayton.

my heating is all over the place with so many individual schedules depending on time of the day. i was worried that with so many different schedules it may impact the performance of the boiler. hence asked here. thanks for the reply

spunkymunky

Hi

I have a Tado V3+ connected to a newly plumbed Ideal Logik combi boiler. We had the plumbing upgraded through and split upstairs and downstairs into zones. The electrician has not wired a tado before and said he tried his best to wire. He wired one zone to the CH and one to the hot water. As follow (Black cable is one zone controller and grey the other)

I can now control the downstairs via the app but cannot control the upstairs zone. Ive searched for how to wire multi zone but cant find anything.

Can anyone advise?

Thanks

WhatsApp Image 2024-03-08 at 15.38.40 (1).jpeg

WhatsApp Image 2024-03-08 at 15.38.40.jpeg

deezell

He's wired a CH zone to a HW timer? Your boiler is a combi, HW on demand so you don't need a HW timer. For CH only with 2 zones, its kind of obvious that you'd need two thermostats, one up and one down. If you didn't originally have a wired thermostat to the boiler, or the general area of those zone valves, then the wireless receiver is ideal, but it only can one wireless stat. You will need to install a second add on wired stat, and connect it to the upstairs zone valve. Are those valves installed upstairs or downstairs? Whichever zone can have a stat conveniently wired to its corresponding zone valve becomes the wired zone, then use the wireless CH On output for the other. The HW relay is redundant, as currently wired it would operate the upstairs zone on a timer, but with no temperature control. If you've noticed a HW timer in your app, this should kick off the upstairs zone valve.

spunkymunky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121867350#Comment_121867350

Thanks deezell. You're a fountain of knowledge here. Makes total sense. Have the wired stat, so will connect that.

The connection to HW kinda worked in manual mode. Once the controller was registered with the boiler, it stopped. Nothing related in the app.

deezell

It's hard on the oul plumbers and heating installers, some of these smart systems can be baffling in their configuration. The not very smart Ember wireless works out of the box and is an exact match for old EPH manual stat and controller installs, so if a customer looks for an App controlled upgrade, its their go to. You won't find too many pushing Honeywell Evohome.

The trade outlet for EPH even has a training classroom where they bring lads up to speed on selected products and systems.

pavb2

Hi all just looking for a bit of advice we have an oil fired boiler replaced about 10 years ago along with a programmer, motorised valves and TRV's. There are 5 rads downstairs, 9 upstairs and a 220 volt thermostat (model srs) which has two wires and controls the upstairs rads only. The programmer can be switched to allow heat downstairs only but downstairs and upstairs switches need to be on to allow heat upstairs ie you can't just have the upstairs radiators on only which isn't necessarily a problem for us.

There's no seperate control for the hot water this heats when the heating is on and an immersion heater for when the heating is off.

The plumber recently balanced the system but the problem I have is that the heat seems to be unevenly distributed too hot in rooms we don't use and not enough heat where we want it. The TRV's don't seem to give much control and the temperature of an individual radiator seems to vary according to how many radiators are on or off rather than by adjusting the individual TRV's.

So would replacing the thermostat and TRV's with smart ones improve things and if so which system to use.

Buck250

Ignore - now solved.

10-10-20

Anybody who's running Home Assistant and has an instrumented DHW cylinder (ie, with multiple temperature sensors installed), you can use this template to calculate the energy of hot water remaining in the cylinder (the delta-T between the cylinder and the cold inlet ("coldtemp")).

In the example below I have a 210L cylinder and four temperature sensors spaced evenly. I then make a kWh calculation for each sensor on the basis of each temperature sensor for quarter of the volume of the tank, then add all four readings together. It's rough enough, but you'll see the heat-loss over the course of a day or a water draw-off event.

// Calculate the energy value in a hot-tank of water.
// Formula: (Volume in L * 4 * Difference in temperature) / 3412 = Stored energy in kW.
// This does not take into account the heating method or efficiency - electric, gas, oil, etc,
        
platform: template

  sensors:

    hot_tank_energy:

      friendly_name: "Hot Tank Energy"

      value_template: >-

        {% set tank_volume = 210 %}

        {% set coldtemp = 15 %}

        {% set sensor_3_f = states('sensor.hot_tank_air_temperature_filtered') | float %}

        {% set sensor_4_f = states('sensor.hot_tank_air_temperature_4_filtered') | float %}

        {% set sensor_5_f = states('sensor.hot_tank_air_temperature_5_filtered') | float %}

        {% set sensor_6_f = states('sensor.hot_tank_air_temperature_6_filtered') | float %}

        {% set hot_tank_energy_sensor_3 = (((tank_volume / 4) * 4 * (sensor_3_f - coldtemp)) / 3412) %}

        {% set hot_tank_energy_sensor_4 = (((tank_volume / 4) * 4 * (sensor_4_f- coldtemp)) / 3412) %}

        {% set hot_tank_energy_sensor_5 = (((tank_volume / 4) * 4 * (sensor_5_f- coldtemp)) / 3412) %}

        {% set hot_tank_energy_sensor_6 = (((tank_volume / 4) * 4 * (sensor_6_f- coldtemp)) / 3412) %}

        {% set hot_tank_energy_total = (hot_tank_energy_sensor_3 + hot_tank_energy_sensor_4 + hot_tank_energy_sensor_5 + hot_tank_energy_sensor_6) %}

        {{ hot_tank_energy_total |float |round(3) }}

      unit_of_measurement: "kWh"

      device_class: energy

If you had three sensors then you would obviously drop a sensor in the calculations but also divide the "tank_volume" by 3 instead of 4.

Enjoy!