Home heating automation

techdiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121461590#Comment_121461590

No, I had manual trvs installed prior to hive. To your point regarding the pin length, if that was an issue wouldn't the hive trv fail to shut off the radiator valve when turned off too, because they can shut them off the radiator valve (thus meaning the radiator does not get warm when the boiler is on) when I turn off the valve in the app? This means that mechanically the pin is long enough to be shut off by hive and it's the calibration and algorithm that is at fault with hive not the physical devices.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121461633#Comment_121461633

Thats what's puzzling. If you can have other radiators in the zone heating, and one definitely closed to the heating flow, stone cold when off in the app, but once turned on, remains on if you manually or in the app set its temperature well below its current measure. What was the brand of manual TRVs, if you've kept any of the heads.

techdiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121461946#Comment_121461946

The manual ones are Myson Petite:

https://pjnolan.ie/product/myson-petite-trv/

The thing is, regardless of the type/make of the manual trvs, the hive valves that are capable of closing the radiators when turned off in the app just not when running on a schedule for HOD.

I'm just running a test again now. I've turned every trv off in the hive app and boosted the heat in both zones. As expected none of the radiators are warming up. So this says to me that the hive algorithm is either broken by a firmware update (as I have seen other on reddit complain about the same thing) or it has never worked properly in the first place.

As I type this the same valve that lost calibration upstairs has once again lost calibration again and wants to be calibrated again for the 3rd time. I have removed and re-seated it a number of times and each time the calibration works only to reset a few days later. These are just too much bloody work when they should simply just work. I'll give them a week to see if there is any improvement but after that I'm sending them back.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

deezell

No problem. When you boost the heat with the zone stat, of course the boiler runs and the zone valve opens, so, as the TRV can close the valves fully on OFF, it would seem then that when they're part of a zone, they only soft close as if to reduce the flow sufficiently to allow the radiator cool to its next lower temperature in the schedule. Can you insert an OFF in the schedule, or just a virtual off as in a very low temperature. This is all you can do in the Tado, set a time slot to 5°, or manually hit the off button.

It does look like a software quirk, perhaps an attempt to reduce battery consumption by not hard closing the valves at the higher torque required to seal them.

The Myson petite anyway are standard M30 1.5, no thread adapters or pin adapters required according to the Tado chart, which I'd expect applies to all standard size trvs. We probably haven't heard the end of this.

Mr Velo

With all of this room automation etc, does it not mean that the boiler is coming on more often - burning more oil than actually getting up to heat and ticking over? Again, I have no clue about this stuff but I'm thinking it would be the case?

Redriddick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121461357#Comment_121461357

One CH and one HW

techdiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462490#Comment_121462490

In theory it shouldn't as the only the radiators that call for heat will draw heat thus reducing the requirements on the boiler on each pass. In reality that doesn't really work for me as at least with Hive the system is all over the place. Coming on and off very regularly.

Even aside from the crap firmware that doesn't properly close the valves once the reach the target temperature, part of the problem is the nature of trvs measuring room temperature is in no way accurate. They claim there is a "special algorithm" to do the temperature measurement but unless they have ideal conditions (which lets fact it very few homes have), they are going to be well off. The right way to do this is to have a mobile mini thermostat for each room that informs the trvs and not relying on the trvs themselves for the temperature measurement.

It's disappointing as the core hive system is brilliant but these trvs are just not fit for purpose and people are probably just not realising the inefficiency of them in real world environments.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462067#Comment_121462067

I wonder if it's trying to maintain a bypass flow in that zone in the absence of a specific bypass radiator. I know that heating-therory-101 says that you're supposed to have a bypass rad with no TRV on it, but few I would think do this in practice. The net effect of fully closing off a zone (with no others open) is that the water pressure backs-up in the heat-exchanger and the boiler can go into a thermal trip.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462598#Comment_121462598

Do you not have an offset or remote sensor option with those TRV's? My z-wave TRV's have both an offset (so I can set some with a positive offset if they are under windows) and they also allow a remote sensor within the room to act as the primary temperature source for that TRV. So that's two method used by other vendors to offset the inaccuracies of measuring a room temperature from an obscure location.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121460950#Comment_121460950

Should also have asked, does your heating have a wall stat, and do you wish to remote control of HW also

techdiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462709#Comment_121462709

That would make sense in theory if it was only 1 valve that remained opened but they all do.

I do have bypass rads on both loops with no trvs in any case.

techdiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121462724#Comment_121462724

Nope, no remote sensor and no offset.

The only remote sensor is the main thermostat for each zone but not per valve.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121460950#Comment_121460950

You can replace your EPH with any CH plus HW kit, Tado wireless starter kit, Hive Mini (or Active) CH plus HW kit with hub, or Drayton Wiser Kit2. As you only want to turn on the CH remotely, you could do this with a €10 smart socket and free internet app. Wire a plug to the CH NC terminal of your eph, then you can switch it on from anywhere like you would a table lamp, with a timer set on the app.

Redriddick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121463410#Comment_121463410

Thanks for the reply. I have a number of smart sockets already and the smartthings app, also controlled by Google homes. I could possibly wire in a smart plug somewhere alright

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121463602#Comment_121463602

It's likely your eph 2 zone has hard wired timer out to the CH on terminal, and not a 3 pole volt free relay. In this case it is OK to wire a volt free smart switch or relay from the eph Live to the CH on, bypassing the eph timer. I would hesitate to use a smart socket, as the live pin of any plug used to bridge live to the CH on terminal will become live when the eph CH timer activates, and were you to unplug this plug from the smart socket there is a danger of shock from the 3 pin plug live pin. Using a hard wired smart switch or relay gives a safer installation.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121460959#Comment_121460959

I looked at this boilers installation manual, its very much and advanced boiler, with myriads if add on options and bus controls. It does, however, still have a basic switched live boiler call link between live and terminal 1 of connecter 96.

Bridging this with an external timer relay will fire the boiler, assuming the internal timer is set to on. Your Danfoss rx2c wireless receiver would control the zone valves for HW and CH, these valves in turn would jointly supply a switched live to terminal 1 connecter 69 of the viessmann, which will then fire provided it's timer is set. The Danfoss has no timing function, and can easily be replaced by a smart controller to supply timed lives to the zone valves. You would set the Viessmans internal timer to always on, or configure it out of the system, I'm guessing the former would be easier, the latter will require quite a bit of understanding of the Viessman configuration. I'll link the manual.

Because the cylinder thermostat is presumably also wireless to the Danfoss receiver, (check this), you could retain the Danfoss for this function, wiring its HW live out via the HW relay of your new smart controller, or vice versa, the HW out of the new controller into the Com terminal of the Danfoss HW channel. The Danfoss CH channel live out is diverted to the CH out of your new controller, and your new smart wireless stat installed.

None of this requires any tinkering with the wiring of the Viessman, as it is still fired by the zone valves. previously under the control of the Danfoss (which is still used to relay the HW cylinder stat control). As timing for HW and CH has now been moved before the valves, rather than inside the boiler, it is only a case of setting the boiler timer to always on. It will only fire when the independent HW and CH timers of the new receiver are on, and their stats are closed. I'd recommend the Tado wireless starter kit as a replacement, or the Hive mini CH plus HW kit.

1710 Vitodens 200-W B2HB B2KB 35kW Installation and Service Instructions.PDF

Redriddick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121463766#Comment_121463766

Thanks again. I installed the eph timer and zoned the system a few years back myself. I'd prefer the hard wired option too, would u have a link to a suitable one?

deezell

Something like this, put it in a single wall socket box beside the eph.

https://amzn.eu/d/j5cakW1

One that works remotely by WiFi, and not just locally.

Redriddick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465101#Comment_121465101

I have the eph wiring centre in the hotpress so could possibly fit it in there

Redriddick

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121465101#Comment_121465101

That's the wiring centre

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121466070#Comment_121466070

Yes. A connector strip in a plastic box, there should be room for the device there, and L and N to power it. You can actually create schedules with those smart plug/relay apps, cheap remote heating controller.

Yellow_Fern

Does any one have a system with an outdoor sensor with open therm that is rock solid and recommended?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121473262#Comment_121473262

OT only really works if you have direct HW boiler, or seperate boiler HW flow and return with internal boiler diverter valve. Also, a single OT zone, as its not possible to join two OT thermostats. Honeywell Evohome system does have some ability afaik to address the boiler by OT while switching zones and valves. Trvs controlled rooms in a single main zone should also benefit from the single OT call to the boiler. I don't see any reason this shouldn't work with Tado OT.

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121474035#Comment_121474035

Thanks a ton for the detailed info. I have an Ideal Independent 15 boiler on S plan with two heating zones and the water, and solar thermal. If I understand you correctly, the gas wont work with open therm but maybe the immersion? Immersion counts as direct? I don't use the immersion but it would be nice to have it set up online a as a back up. I was looking into getting a module to connect the solar thermal to the web via Germany. I notice on the Vbus website they have outdoor sensors depicted https://www.vbus.net/#/

I am not into extreme home automation, at least not right now but I would love reduce my bills as much as possible and maybe have a sensor here and there for alerting me to post delivery or water leaks.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121474760#Comment_121474760

Well with solar thermal, the best solution is to have the timer on your HW controller set until later in the day, to allow the thermal do the heavy lifting of getting the cold tank up to some useful temperatures in the winter, and probably fully heated in summer. The HW zone should have a stat on the tank, so it will cut the boiler when the tank stat temperature is reached. This won't prevent the thermal from continuing to contribute, as it's coil is in the bottom and gets first dibs on the incoming cold water. If you find the water is not up to scratch first thing in the morning, set the HW timer for a modest burst, 30 mins maybe, then if there's a bit of solar, it will preheat before the next timer burst. Heating water by electricity is three times the price of oil/gas, avoid, unless you have a night rate of about 12c/unit.

When you say the immersion may work with opentherm, you're not understanding what opentherm is about. It's an algorithm which reduces the temperature of central heating water flow as a function of the thermostats target temperature. So the boiler not only knows the CH is calling for heat, but it has a read of the room temperature and the required target temperature. This data allows it to modulate the boiler burning so as i the heat the rooms, but yet maintain the lowest flow and return temperature, the purpose of which is to keep the boiler in optimum condensing mode and save a few euro. This flow temperature is insufficient for HW, direct or otherwise, so during HW demand, direct or to the cylinder, the boiler will need to output for HW at 60°+, to ensure recovery heat transfer in an indirect cylinder, and to prevent legionella in the HW circuits. With single zone CH and direct HW OT connected boilers, the direct HW temperature can usually be set from the HW setting in the app.

A boiler operating in OT can be forced back into dumb in demand firing by simply wiring the HW zone valve volt free relay across the digital OT terminals. A short on these is interpreted as a normal dumb call for heat.

As you have two CH zones, it would be difficult to implement OT for your CH unless you investigate the Evohome option, complex and expensive. What controller and stats do you currently have on your 2 CH and HW zones?

Yellow_Fern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121474961#Comment_121474961

That is highly informative. Maybe I am speaking without wisdom but it really seems the tech is not mature by the sounds of it.

I have a Climote. Basic system but it suits me fine mostly. I presumed Climote can't modulate but I don't even know this. I have an upstairs and downstairs adjustable EPH thermostat, I presume wired. I am planning to do some serious alterations in in 1-2 years so I may be able to lay more wires if it helps.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121478033#Comment_121478033

Climote gone bust, so you might want to change you controller and stats for something smarter. Hive, Drayton wiser, or Tado would fit the bill. Your Climote was installed in place of a three channel EPH controller? Thus using the original EPH upstairs/,downstairs mechanical stats, and using the Climote as a 3 channel timer. Climote app access is set to disappear, there have been no buyers for the companies subscription client database.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/1019/1411829-liquidators-appointed-to-heating-firm-climote-ltd/#:~:text=The%20High%20Court%20has%20appointed,plan%20could%20not%20be%20agreed.

gillamandango

Got some help here with a Hive install previously, many thanks. Am getting confused doing another one on a conventional boiler, no separate hot water. Using the plate below and having trouble patching. Hardly as simple as Blue to N, Brown to L and Black to Slot4?

To me it looks like the live in with the earth, then a L/N and a switched live back out to the boiler, which is on the opposite side of that wall.

Thanks in advance.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121491602#Comment_121491602

Is there a sketch of the terminal wiring on the outside of that timer? Maybe a picture looking down on the terminals, it's hard to figure where the 5 wires are terminated, and which are joined. It looks like an APT timer. These are normally , from the top N, L in, L out and Earth. The wires in your image appear to be brown and black to 3, both blue to 2, and a single brown to 1, with 4, earth, empty.

There's 5 wires , so you'd assume there's L and N in, and L and N out. The N are tied together, and one L is switched by the timer. If the boiler requires a permanent live to operate correctly, the live in would be directly linked to a permanent live out, and a switched/timed live would also go to the boiler to fire it, that accounts for 5 wires, as you surmised This switched Live would normally be the black wire, but its hard to tell whats going on on on that timer unless you test the terminals with a meter of a phase test screwdriver to see which is permanent live in, which is switched live by the timer. Once you know this you replicate the connections of the 5 wires to the hive.

What brand is this timer? picture of the front , and the diagram, if its there. Operate it while off the wall and see which wires are permanent live and what are timed live.

gillamandango

Apologies, it was buried internally on the timer switch.

1 - L In - Black/Brown

2 - N In - Blue

From the board with the Earth. L In Black then out to Boiler

3 - N Out - Blue

4 - L Out - Brown

Seem to go to the Boiler outside

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121492223#Comment_121492223