Home heating automation

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121421766#Comment_121421766

But meantime, in the zone created for the wired stat, check that its heating controller is set to itself, and not the extension kit, otherwise it's only a sensor for the extension kit. I've read quite a few posts where your issue occurred when installing one wired and one wireless stat, the advice always seems to be have support add it. I've had no issue installing two wired, they both became zone controllers by default. It should be possible to make the wired stat a zone controller from the app, though I've yet to see it described. Programming the actually stat using key presses and screen responses is not east.

Perhaps also delete the devices, then add the wired first, set it as a TRV controller. Then add the extension kit stat and the extension kit in that order, see if you have a choice of two zone controllers showing.

Buck250

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121421853#Comment_121421853

Thanks. I've contacted Tado so hopefully they'll sort it.

I tried deleting the devices and adding again. Good thinking but unfortunately didn't work.

Silver-Tiger

@deezell Just reading the last few pages and you come across as a bit of a hero!

Very similar situation to @Buck250 so maybe you can pay it forward also!

I'm a monkey when it comes to heating but have everything else in my home smart so want to move over. I have the below set up. Main unit(pic 1) wired under the boiler (Baxi). Two Thermostats (Pic 2) in the hall and the landing and i don't use them.

Could i order the below and have some sort of decent set up?

Could i order the below and have some sort of decent set up?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/tado%C2%B0-Smart-Radiator-Thermostat-Starter/dp/B098B4KP2B/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=10RQOJYX6CXG&keywords=tado&qid=1701105154&sprefix=tado%2Caps%2C78&sr=8-1-spons&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.23648568-4ba5-49f2-9aa6-31ae75f1e9cd&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1

https://www.amazon.co.uk/tado%C2%B0-additional-Smart-Thermostat-intelligent/dp/B01BWUH8W4/ref=sxin_14_recs_zoco_stores_brand_identity_bs?content-id=amzn1.sym.ecc1ecf8-8d1c-4bbd-b655-da936e24b538%3Aamzn1.sym.ecc1ecf8-8d1c-4bbd-b655-da936e24b538&crid=10RQOJYX6CXG&cv_ct_cx=tado&keywords=tado&pd_rd_i=B01BWUH8W4&pd_rd_r=354b3950-f17d-4572-ac0e-56bd8d4cd63f&pd_rd_w=BTUaR&pd_rd_wg=q3zpN&pf_rd_p=ecc1ecf8-8d1c-4bbd-b655-da936e24b538&pf_rd_r=MBFY9YSJV3F8N9D78YVV&qid=1701105154&sbo=RZvfv%2F%2FHxDF%2BO5021pAnSA%3D%3D&sprefix=tado%2Caps%2C78&sr=1-5-0723f66e-ff99-43ba-a202-1be1089a8603&th=1

Grumpypants

I'm looking for some advice. I have the smartzone.ie / Alarm.com thermostat and hot water controls.

I just got the email that smartzone is going into receivership and a bit concerned the app stops working and I can't turn on hot water.

Is there something relatively easy to swap out. It would be great to have a panel on the wall that lets you control the hot water and not be reliant on the apps.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121425148#Comment_121425148

So you have a two CH zone system, no HW control. The controller is a 2 zone EPH R27 rf with the EPH wall stats connected wirelessly to the controller, no wired connection. This limits your replacement to a similar setup, wireless wall stats to a two zone receiver, or two single zone receivers.

The Tado system is limited in that there can only be one wireless stat to their receiver. And only one extension kit receiver in a system. Other zone stats must be wired. The extention kit also has a HW relay which is surplus to your requirements as I assume your HW is direct from the boiler.

it may be possible to fudge this limitation by installing wired Tado stats as receivers, with sensor wireless stats used as the measuring device, but this would be costly and confusing, though it is perfectly possible to turn a wired stat into a non temperature measuring device used entirely to act as a relay to fire the boiler, or open zone valves, while some other devices (smart TRVs or sensor stats). provide the wireless switching instructions.

Far easier just to purchase two smart stat and receiver kits of another brand, and one hub for Internet app access. The hive mini single zone starter kit with hub plus the add on hubless version with stat and receiver is probably ideal, and best value.

This, for €115

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-white-grey/150pv

and this for €60

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/hive-mini-wireless-heating-smart-thermostat-hubless-white-grey/681pv

and you're sorted.

You can also buy their original Active versions of the above for €150 plus €99, with a more solidly engineered wall stat.

If you wish to add smart TRV control to some radiators, Hive also have these.

If you fit enough smart TRV's, you can of course combine your two zone system into a single logical zone with just one wireless stat and receiver starter kit, the TRVs effectively give you multiple zones. In this case you could operate with multiple TRVs on all the rads, with even a single tado wired stat configured solely as a relay to open both zone valves and call the boiler whenever a TRV opens for heat. The kit you linked would partially achieve that, but you would need a good deal more TRVs. I'd advise the Hive two zone as best suited to convert your system to smart app control, the two receivers are very simply wired in place of the EPH controller, and you can add TRVs after.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121426509#Comment_121426509

Do you pay a monthly €10 sub? Have got the alarm components of this system or just the heating controller. Can you post a few pics of the parts of the system you have, wall stat(s), controller, and any other bits wired to valves or the boiler. It's not immediately clear how this American HVAC thermostat has been adapted for European mains switched heating. There are no installation diagrams that might show how it's connected. The alarm.com site shows the stat multi terminal wiring typical of US low voltage controlled HVAC systems, not applicable here I assume you have a single heating zone. Is your HW from a cylinder, and is it separately controlled from the app. The smartzone.ie site shows what looks like a receiver controller unit as part of a heating only package. If your system is indeed a standard 2 zone plumbed CH and HW system, it would be relatively easy and inexpensive to replace it with a smart CH plus HW receiver and CH stat. All the smart systems with HW control generally use their apps to set HW heating schedules, their receiver units at most might have a HW boost button, but no interface to set timers or a single one off time other than via the app.

Grumpypants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121426832#Comment_121426832

Thanks for the reply. I've a standard 2 zone heating (one upstairs and one downstairs , both controlled by their own thermostat) plus separate hot water to a big cylinder in the hot press. All three are controlled separately in the app. But you do get the wall mounted thermostat for each heating zone, just not for hot water, that's 100% in the app.

I've the whole system, Monitored alarm and heating for €29 I presume that includes the €10 they would charge for heating only.

I'll try take to pictures in the morning. But the central box and thermostat shown on the website is the one I have. https://smartzone.ie/heating-controls-special-offer

I do remember the installer adding a new temperature sensor to the hot water tank that reads the temperature near the top and taped up the old dial that was on it.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121426918#Comment_121426918

From the plumbing side of things, you obviously have a 3 zone S plan system, each zone, 2 CH and HW, supplied by a motorised valve, in turn actuated by a control voltage from that 'central' controller box. The two wall thermostats are probably wirelessly connected to the controller, as is the cylinder temperature sensor.

Did this system replace a previous standard electronic three zone timer controller, possibly with basic wired wall stats, or perhaps wireless but non Internet ones which just linked to the older timer controller?. It sounds like the cylinder stat was a manual wired one, before replacement by the sensor (wireless?) one. I've not come across this brand before on any of the discussions, it seems to be proprietary and very much in-house to smartzone.ie, who don't publish electrical details or sell the components for self install. Their literature implies that the controller box is bound into or maybe even wired into a part of their alarm control system, maybe it takes account of alarms being set to reduce temperatures and deduce lack ofoccupancy, in addition to geolocation from the app, this would make installation of the system bound by the regulations for professional alarm installation, maintenance and monitoring. There's no room for non registered tradesmen or diyers to intefere in this, or install any part of the security hubs or boxes.

The standalone heating offer wouldn't be restricted thus, and I'd say yours is independent of the alarm part sufficiently to replace it with a three zone smart system, the Drayton wiser kit 3 is a one control box drop in solution, but like many of these, HW timing is app only, HW temperature being manually set and forget on your taped up cylinder dial. Manual control at most a boost button on the controller.

The EPH Ember Internet connected system, and the reasonably advanced Honeywell EVO system are the two I know of where HW control uses a wireless sensor to read temperature, and this along with HW timing can be set and scheduled in both their apps, or on their controller panels. The temperature sensor aside, the Ember is not a smart system as such, just an Internet accessible version of their well established zoned timer mainstay. I think it still lacks integration with any of the home control apps and devices, and has nothing clever beyond slot time scheduling. Both systems are however available to buy at the component level, and can be third party installed. The Ember is very much DIY level, its a favourite of heating installers as the electrical and tech install knowledge is minimal, so a plumber can complete an install easily. Heatmiser also supply products for wired and wireless zone control, with add in Internet access, but manual control of HW events from one of the CH wall stats. I've tinkered with this in a new house install for family, the Internet hub not included in the house purchase, so had to be retrofitted, but its pretty disappointing as a smart home products, about the same league as the Ember.

Honeywell EVO has a more detailed install path, though the electrical interface to the zone valves is no more involved than any of the smarter brands.

So I'd conclude by saying you could relatively easily replace the heating control part of your smartzone system. Drayton, Hive, Evo, or Tado if there is existing stat wiring, will all do a smart job, with reconnection of the dial tank thermostat required in most cases. Whether you'd get a sub reduction from smartzone, I couldn't say. This may be moot if they close their support and Internet access.

The receiver may well try to sell the customer base and subscription service off. Alarm.com appear to be an uninvolved supplier to smartzone.ie, they may or may not be involved in the Internet or cloud part of this. I'd expect your heating system to continue to work locally at the very least. The stats and control box are specified as Zigbee devices, I don't know if you've attempted to pick these up on other smart home devices, or on Alexa or Google Home, but you should look into this. I'd relax until you are contacted by the receiver if the worst happens, but they'll almost certainly try and sell off the monitored alarm customer base.

Silver-Tiger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121426800#Comment_121426800

Thanks so much @deezell. I should have noted that pic 1 does control the HW. Zone 1 is CH and 2 is the HW. The Thermostats aren't in use at the moment. 1 wireless thermostat would be fine for downstairs I think. Upstairs is so much warmer due to a poorly built extension downstairs and well built insulated attic conversion Upstairs. Does that change much?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121426999#Comment_121426999

That changes things. You said you have two CH thermostats. These are wireless to the receiver, which is only connected to a single CH zone, so you haven't independent heating if upstairs and downstairs? Maybe you have but your controller is opening both at the same time? It would help greatly if your heating had seperate zones. That way you could heat downstairs without baking upstairs. Alternatively, you can go around all the upstairs rads and trim the lockshield valves on them to limit the hot flow, and thus force more output into the downstairs. If your upstairs rads don't have Thermostatic Radiator Valves, you could invest in having these fitted to cap upstairs heating, and even change the manual TRV valve heads to smart ones integrated into a Tado, Hive or Drayton replacement smart system. For now though you can replace that controller with just the Hive mini (or Active) with HW starter kit, or the Tado wireless starter kit, both have two zone receivers with one CH and one HW relay, a simple drop in for the EPH. I'm curious as to how you have two wireless wall stats, but only one CH channel receiver. Who put this in I wonder.

Silver-Tiger

Firstly thanks @deezell, i've offered my equivalent of buying you a pint in your DMs. The responses are much appreciated.

To answer some of your questions.

You said you have two CH thermostats. - Yeah 2. I've never used them though. It's always been Zone 1 is CH for the house and Zone 2 is the Hot Water BUT the immersion works fine upstairs for the hot water but i never use it. I've attached a pic. When i flick sink and on it will heat the hot water no prob. Could i replace this with a smart unit for the HW and just have downstairs concentrated on the CH?

I'm thinking Smart TRV for the 3 main rads downstairs. 2 in Large kitchen/extension and one in sitting room. I could invest in a few for the bedrooms also.

 I'm curious as to how you have two wireless wall stats, but only one CH channel receiver. Who put this in I wonder. - I knew it was off. I'm guessing the previous owner had a cut himself.

Silver-Tiger

Would any more pics be beneficial for your understanding of this setup?

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121427052#Comment_121427052

I assume the flash timer is for timed heating of the immersion element. Tranferring this timing to control by the EPH or another brand receiver is not possible without an an extra relay, as the immersion element current rating is too high for the contacts of most heating controler timers. Your eph heats HW by the boiler on zone two. Is there a wireless EPH HW thermostat fitted to the cylinder? Or a manual cylinder stat with a temperature dial? Also, when you turn on CH zone one only, does the HW also heat during CH timed events. Have a look around the cylinder for motorised zone valves, or in the vicinity of your boiler, ( oil or gas?).

Silver-Tiger

Right. I'm here years and this is the first time i've looked at any of this. Starting to make more sense to me. Some more pics.

Thermostat downstairs.

Thermostat downstairs when power button is pressed.

Under the hood of the downstairs unit. Clearly Wireless.

Upstairs unit. It sits on the wall beside the hot press.

Under the hood. Wired. And wire goes into the hot press.

Some other pics from inside the hot press beside the immersion. This is where the wire from the wall ends up i think.

EPH box that i didn't know was there.

Silver-Tiger

It's a gas boiler BTW. Pic of underneath attached.

Silver-Tiger

Pic

Grumpypants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121426997#Comment_121426997

Thanks again, these are great replies.

Alarm.com are an American company and I think smartzone just resell their setup. I use the Alarm.com app to control all the alarm and heating/hot water.

KPMG have taken the receivership and said it is being transferred to Alert24. This was in the email about the transfer "Please be aware that by opting out, Action24 will not be in a position to provide you with the Services. In addition, it should be noted that following the completion of the sale, Smartzone will cease to trade and will no longer be in a position to provide any Services to you i.e. the Services available on your Smatzone App will stop working". 

The heating might still work as I have the thermostats that have buttons to turn on off and change the heating. But the only way to do the hot water is to use the app.

For my current set up: I opened up the press and had a look. I think the pumps look like they have been there since day one so may not be part of the Smartzone install?

I turned on the heating and hot water separately and it looks like.

There are two control boxes in the electrical box. These are likely wirelessly connected to the thermostats (and the old fashion dials are disconnected).

The one marked "Upstairs" looks to be connected to that Silver metal box. Maybe a valve?

The one marked "Downstairs" is connected to the pump at the bottom.

The higher-up pump (I can't see a control) but that comes on when the hot water is turned on.

I have an oil boiler out the back for heating / hot water.

The house never had a timer for heating it was always just the round dials with a temp so it was either hot enough and the heating was off or cold enough and the heating would be turned on.

The hot water did have an old timer (the one where you pop out the times you want it on at) but that was removed and blanked off when msartxone installed theirs.

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121427319#Comment_121427319

Two zone system. The upstairs stat is not for CH, its the wireless stat for the HW cylinder, the wires you see are to the sensor on the cylinder,

deezell

The white units are motorised valves, as is the silver box. It looks like a standard S plan plan 3 zone system, with the three control voltages to the valves coming from those small Z Wave receivers, while the source of the HW motorised valve Switched Live is difficult to determine, it might come directly from the central control unit thats illustrated on the smartzone site alongside a stat. Do you have the controller unit on the left in your setup? The grey an orange wires in the wiring box are the live inputs to the motorised valve relays, and the switched live outputs which are combined and sent to fire the boiler. So any valve opening is sufficient to fire it.

Grumpypants

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429178#Comment_121429178

I have that unit but it seems to just be the hub that everything talks to. It just sits on a shelf and is plugged into the router. Other than the ethernet cable it only has a normal 3 pin power plug so I don't think it is hooked up anywhere to the system.

The HW must have a control switch somewhere. I do know there is a temperature gauge at the top of the hot water tank. As the oil heats from the top and the solar tubes from the bottom. The temperature reading from the top is taken pretty high in the system so we usually only get 2 showers or a bath out of it.

Grumpypants

I think I found it. This grey box clicks when I turn the hot water on or off. And when I open it it looks like a temperature gauge and controller switch.

But I guess the main concern is that I couldn't swap this out for a different system. But I guess once I found someone that new there way around these, they prob could do it fairly handy.

deezell

That looks like an insert stat, which just cuts off the HW call for heat when the water heat past a mechanically set temperature on the stat. What's behind the gaffer tape on the front? I'm wondering is there another of those small Z-wave receivers supplying a HW live voltage in response to an app command. There doesn't seem to anything other than a bimetallic thermostat switch on the tank, or is there a little receiver behind the coils of black cable? If that's smarzones handiwork, it all looks a bit home brew-ish. It would however be easy to clear it out and wire in three control voltages from a Drayton kit 3 zone receiver, or a pair of Hive receivers, one CH and one CH+HW.

deezell

There's a little blue receiver alright, I can just about see it. It won't be difficult to wire in three replacement switched live signals.

Silver-Tiger

Thanks @deezell

Based on this advice above

For now though you can replace that controller with just the Hive mini (or Active) with HW starter kit, or the Tado wireless starter kit, both have two zone receivers with one CH and one HW relay, a simple drop in for the EPH

I'm going to order this as Amazon sale is over

https://ie.shop.tado.com/products/wireless-smart-thermostat-starter-kit-v3

Plus 3 TRVS for the Main rads downstairs?

This will enable be to control the home CH and HW through Google Home and control the temp of downstairs? As i said. Upstair is always roasting so not too upset i can't have an extra zone.

Dozz

@Silver-Tiger

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/tado-v3-wireless-heating-hot-water-smart-thermostat-starter-kit-white/141kt

save you a few €

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121429739#Comment_121429739

Yes, for some bizarre reason Tado ie site is in £, so thats about €139. Better and cheaper to buy across the counter in Screwfix for €125, easier returns under warranty also. Buy the TRVs, but put them upstairs, to reduce the heat going upstairs when the stat is trying to achieve desired temperature downstairs. TRVs upstairs will keep a lid on excess heating when upstairs is unoccupied save you € and allow the downstairs to have a better share of the heat flow.

Silver-Tiger

Can these be bought? Seems a good price individually.

https://www.harveynorman.ie/computing/connected-home-en/all-connected-home/tp-link-kasa-smart-thermostatic-radiator-valve.html

This note is off putting though : PLEASE NOTE: YOU WILL NEED TP-LINK TAPO SMART HUB WITH CHIME TO USE ME

deezell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121430359#Comment_121430359

Bare faced Chinese play on the Tado brand and Product. 'Tapo' is not Tado, it's just a cheap electronic TRV valve which requires it's own hub for connection, would not integrate with the Tado app, and there's no knowing what it's quality is like.

Silver-Tiger

Ah!!

Wasn't even aware i was looking at Okey Dokeys when i need Hunky Dorys. Thanks!

deezell

So another mutton dressed as lamb thermostat purveyor has gone into receivership. The Climote company have gone bust and no buyer was found for their base of €30 pa subscription customers needed to service connection to their app.

The stat was quite pretty looking, but behind the facade was a controller which allowed only three timed slots per day, with no scheduled control of the temperature of the main zone, it could only be set at one temperature and left. The other 2 zones were strictly timer only. These stats, like other turkeys, made full use of loose interpretation of the grant qualifying 'single measure solution,' which allowed the most basic of thermostats claiming imagined intelligence and imagined savings on heating, allowed power utilities to offer them free while claiming substantial eu supports and credits, while customers paid annual fees for the ability to edit a crude 3 slot daily timer.

When this nonsense grant was exposed and discontinued (it was responsible for many non internet connected but otherwise efficiently zoned and timed CH and HW systems being reduced to one turgid zone), the company had no sales basis, only its sub. They apparently had an outstanding order of 5000 stats from a single company, which could only have been an energy utility. I don't think they indulged in the fantasy claims of the notorious hub controller, but the product had all the smarts of a Xmas lights timer. There were up to 100,000 of these installed, and probably provided as much automation as some people wanted; on or off, and a pretty app to do the same. Expect a good few to turn up here when the app dissappears.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/1019/1411829-liquidators-appointed-to-heating-firm-climote-ltd/#:~:text=The%20High%20Court%20has%20appointed,plan%20could%20not%20be%20agreed.