BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Taisteal Éireann

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122818219#Comment_122818219

Very unusual indeed to be moving the last departures earlier. With the L2, I would imagine it's to keep the current early departures from the 84. There's currently a 04:30 from Bray to Newcaslte and a 05:00 from Newcastle to Blackrock. This I believe is a hangover from when the 84 used to operate into the city. It was the first bus of the morning along the N11 and would bring a lot of drivers to the depot in Donnybrook. The L1 is getting an earlier departure than present but not as early as the L2! Though, the 133 serves part of that route with an early morning service and is currently the first bus along the N11 in the morning, but will only pick up drivers in County Dublin, not passengers!

cantthinkofausername1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122817491#Comment_122817491

Tbh there should be a new radical route that travels from Hanlons Corner (North Circular Road) to the City Centre as the O route doesn't go directly in the city centre (since it doesn't go into O'Connell Street etc), the 11 change is only temporary until when the O Launches, when the O launches then the 11 would probably only terminate from Mountjoy Square after that

DUBLINBUSGUY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122818891#Comment_122818891

The journey out special to Newcastle via Newtown as a ghost (driver leaves Bray Depot 04:30, straight to Newtown on motorway, departs there at 04:50 for any DB drivers, then operates the 05:00 84 from Newcastle) is listed as a normal 84 trip from Bray to Newcastle following the normal route on the TFI app and RTPI boards. I think this is to do with the very early morning dead mileage being subsidised but I'm not 100% sure on what the agreement or mechanism is that is in place. Also, most times the drivers won't be logged on properly as most wouldn't sign on the 04:30 in the correct way as they don't consider it a service and as they go down the N11 and not the normal route surely this journey is bringing down the KPIs on the route?

It's good to see the early morning departures out of Newcastle being retained as they are used by people going to work. However, the early Saturday morning departure has been dropped. The Sunday service compared to the 84 is astronomically better though. I also don't see any departures marked via Sea Road Kilcoole or an intermediate timepoint named as such on the timetable.

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122818219#Comment_122818219

A 4.20 ex-Bray would probably be a 3.35 out of the gate at my guess, especially at that time of the day. Who knows, maybe GAI will go down the DB road and have the earliest departures operated by a night duty – the way DB schedules are made now, if there are night duties on a bill, then the first departures worked by the new day's duties aren't until 5.00 or so.

trellheim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122819144#Comment_122819144

There has been a tram or bus into town on this route for over 100 years, whatever the route number , and it even used to be a tram route - see No.10 tram history. Not one person has explained how its loss will benefit people living on or just off this bit of the NCR

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122819912#Comment_122819912

They will lose a route, but gain a new one, a high frequency route with the O

Some people on the NCR will love this new O route, while others prefer the old route. Same with the 13 on Griffith Avenue, people lost a direct route into town but gained the N2, which is far less frequent then the O, so arguably the people on Griffith Avenue are much worse off the those on the NCR.

trellheim

But the O doesnt serve where those existing people want to go so whats the point . If there had been a demand for the O route after 100 years there would have been a route serving it at some time, but instead joe punter will have to squeeze onto a single decker electric to one of the other routes - in order to squeeze onto another packed inbound. e.g if you get on an O at Oxmantown road , go two stops and change to a 39a its likely rammed inbound from Blanch . In addition the O goes where there are almost no bus priority lanes or its a single lane , find me a bus lane it can use from Infirmary Road all the way to Sam Beckett bridge , its a little better southside but not much, additionally its being rammed through James St and James Hospital which has no bus lanes AND its mixing with the LUAS onstreet. Firmly believe its crayoning. I may well be wrong here and there is huge suppressed demand like the Elizabeth line in London.

you'll get a few connections thats true because punters have no choice here BUT for most its normally faster to go into town and back out again via whatever method .

I'm an ex-customer of the 13 and losing it along Griffith avenue doesn't discommode anywhere near the same amount of punters. Stand at Upper OCS or Parnell Sq West any evening and look at the packed 46a buses most of whom get off after Phibsboro . By contrast the same on Griffith Av ( a lot of people getting off) didnt used to happen until Ballymun Road which remains well-served by other routes. That is in contrast to what is happening here.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122820823#Comment_122820823

I’m sorry, but your two lines are nonsense. You could say the same about the N4 or any of the other orbital routes. They didn't exist in the past, but they do now and they have been tremendously successful.

The lack of orbital routes has been a big obvious missing part of the bus network. Just because they have been over looked for 100 years isn’t a good argument, in fact it is pretty damning of a poorly designed bus network and lack of integrated ticketing.

I’ve often used the 46a the way the O will be, I’ve often used the combination of the 46a + 1/16/41 to get too and from Phoenix Park and frankly it worked really well and was a very easy to use combination. So I honestly don’t see it as a big an issue as you are making out.

I do have some sympathy that it might be a pain inbound at peak time in the morning. The question being if you get the O a few stops, will you actually be able to get on an already full E or B bus inbound. I think this could easily be solved by say a morning peak time only local route following the 46a route northern section into OCS.

I honestly don’t think you will get any where arguing to keep the 46a and scrap the E/O, they are far too important routes to BusConnects that will carry far more people then the NCR section of the 46a ever would and the changes are too far along already.

trellheim

In a lot of cases the N and S orbitals were served by existing routes - the N2 wasn't but let's see what kind of growth it gets

the old 17 and 18 routes can be seen with a proven demand in the past for outer orbitals and I'm not knocking them , I did argue that the N2 near the park should have gone along a different route but that can be changed.

This is kind of my point re the O route a lot of it has never been served as an orbital because…. there was never any demand , its nearly always quicker to go into town and go back out and I can't see that changing except for forced change brought on by the 46a removal.

To take the O seriously for a moment for any chance at success it would need high capacity and plenty of priority or its not worth it

Is there any plan to lower the road at Macken St Bridge as part of Busconnects, to allow for Double deckers to run the route as it should be run ? No. Nothing in busconnects but plenty of infra for spines.

Is there any plan for new bus priority for the O - specifically for the O at any point along its route ? - not that I can see *(small exceptions - yes, there will need to be a right and left hand turn at Sean Heuston Bridge and traffic signals for a bus added at both ends of Steevens lane, but thats to enable the route to run, not a priority measure , and there will probably be a filter right added to the Infirmary road turn) .

So an 8 min freq electric bus will get snarled in some of the worst traffic hotspots in town purely because of crayoning.

I'm not specifically against it, I just can't see it working and If I'm proved wrong so be it. The O and a route into town from the NCR are not mutually exclusive is my point. You make this point as well. NTA see this also as the 11 is being rerouted to cover once the E launches and I personally believe it should have been the E3 route on a permanent basis as the demand is there. Stand on Hanlons corner all day long , you can see the inbound 39a and two inbound 46a stops. both 46a stops get double the amount of pax the 39a stop gets.

Let's see what gets promised on the doors by the politicians

Tusky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122814782#Comment_122814782

Will the O be a viable route to city centre for people coming from Infirmary Road, or will it likely be too slow/indirect?

The 46a must be one of the busiest routes in the network. It's a huge loss to residents of NCR and asking them to change to a packed 39/B spine is a big downgrade in service. Also, will this mean that tourists will no longer have a direct route to the Phoenix Park?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122826211#Comment_122826211

There will be multiple ways for tourists to get to Phoenix park. The O will be an excellent way as it will pass both Connolly and Heuston Station and connect with every major bus route in the city.

There is also the option of getting the Red Line Luas to Phoenix park + the 99.

As for Infirmary Road it would be as viable as the 46a, but it does mean you have to change along the way. In some ways it will be more viable as it will be more frequent and it will give them the option of heading towards Heuston and switching onto the red line Luas or any of the other many bus routes that pass there and use the quays. To be honest it will likely get them into the City Center much faster then the 46a.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122824281#Comment_122824281

An E3 would make no sense, first of all, do you not care about the people living on the NCR between the A and E route? Surely an A5 or whatever would make more sense?

But also the NCR is far too close to the city for a service like this, the purpose of the lettered routes is for the routes to be scheduled together, with the routes only separating much further outside the city. Being so close, would mess that up.

At the best it could be the new 11 route, though personally I think all it might need is a X11, just a few departures during the morning peak, if that.

thomasj

Also, when it comes , the B spine will have 4 routes , each running every 15-20 minutes generally , running to UCD/Dun Laoghaire/Sallynoggin. They will all run past Hanlons.

AngryLips

Why are people catastrophising the O route? Surely it's not going to be any slower than the 46a on that stretch of road?

thomasj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122826211#Comment_122826211

The last stats I saw for the Dublin bus route network was 15, 39A, 27, 46A as the top 4 routes.

Tusky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122826381#Comment_122826381

Thanks for the detailed response. Infirmary Road to O'Connell Street is only 3km. Having to get two buses is not ideal for such a short journey, particularly in bad weather. My question was really whether people who previously got the 46A from Infirmary Road will get the O Orbital directly to city centre without changing. It seems like this probably won't be attractive though, as it's quite an indirect route and doesn't come down O'Connell Street like the 46A does.

On the Red Line Luas - have you tried to use it at peak hour? It is already barely functional. I often cannot get on and have to let two or three trams pass. I don't think it's viable to direct more passengers towards it at peak times. Asking tourists to walk to Connelly Station is also not ideal. Previously they could take the 46A from the very centre of the city to the gates of the park. That service will now be downgraded.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122826579#Comment_122826579

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122826673#Comment_122826673

I'm not catastrophising it. As someone who lives in the area, I think it will be great. We need more radial routes and this one will be key. I'm just not sure cutting a busy direct route (46A) to the city from a densely populated area is a good decision. That bus stop is also about the become the closest stop for all the new residents of O'Devaney Gardens - its about to become even more busy.

thomasj

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122826579#Comment_122826579

I don't get it.

They will have a high frequency , likely 24/7 bus route , that will connect with every spine and every rail line , light or heavy in this city.

They are a few stops away from the 39/b spine , the green luas line or indeed the 38/38A/120/122 that will bring them to O'Connell street as normal.

or even a few minutes away from the e spine that will bring them Southside the same as the 46A does. Or even from phibsborough to the airport, far greater than their current options.

And it will only cost them 2 euro ,the same as it currently does.

This new bus route opens up new areas and options for them.

What's not to like?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122827247#Comment_122827247

Thanks for the detailed response. Infirmary Road to O'Connell Street is only 3km. Having to get two buses is not ideal for such a short journey, particularly in bad weather. My question was really whether people who previously got the 46A from Infirmary Road will get the O Orbital directly to city centre without changing. It seems like this probably won't be attractive though, as it's quite an indirect route and doesn't come down O'Connell Street like the 46A does.

It depends what you call the city center. If you define it as just OCS, then yes, they will have to change. However if they are working down on the IFSC or south docks, they will now have a direct, no change bus route running direct to those areas. Or to Heuston and James Hospital in the other direction.

The city has grown a lot and I think it isn't great to just think of OCS as the city center. I'd suspect that a lot more people who live on the NCR/Infirmary Road work down in the offices in the IFSC and south docks, then on OCS!

I'd also point out that Infirmary Road is like a 5 minute walk from Heuston Station, the Red line Luas there and dozens of bus routes. Frankly that area is spoilt for choice.

They will have the O route on their door, one of the most frequent routes in the whole city, that will connect to almost every bus route, Luas line and rail line in the city! 5 minute walk to Heuston and all the lines there. The 80 and 58 passing even closer, just at the end of Infirmary Road, the N2 and B spine close by.

Frankly the more I think about it, the more silly it seems. It is one of the best connected parts of the city!

dfx-

All based on the O route actually starting and working properly...

If the 46A can be standing room only and slow through Phibsboro at a frequency of 8 minutes...

Is Harristown going to still run the 13 with a lot of dead time to/from the termini?

DUBLINBUSGUY

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122828646#Comment_122828646

Donnybrook will be operating the 13 from Grange Castle to Mountjoy Square.

cgcsb

Fact is that bus connects network, the bulk of it at least, was designed 7 years ago. And parts of it will be implemented 10 years after design so it's unlikely to meet the demand in any case. We need rail, a lot of it.

Tusky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122830108#Comment_122830108

It was also designed to be implemented overnight in a "big bang" style, rather than over many years in dribs and drabs.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122830143#Comment_122830143

Well thats what Jarrett Walker suggested, but the reality was that the resources, be they funding, vehicles and staff, were never going to facilitate that. It was always going to be phased.

But unfortunately Covid struck, and ever since staffing resources have proved the main delaying reason.

Hence we have the issues that arise from the phased implementation, such as short-term changes to pre-existing routes.

As a thought, it could be possible that the 11 might stay put on the NCR until the B-Spine is implemented.

That to me would be a sensible compromise.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122830108#Comment_122830108

I certainly queried some of the frequency drops from the outset - the reductions on the N11 and Malahide Road corridors glared out as potential pitfalls when I examined them in detail.

A similar issue will arise on Ballymun Road when the 9 is removed without a replacement north of Botanic Road.

I still think that they may come back to bite the NTA as those phases happen.

bk

Well they should never have dropped the Switfway BRT plan. They should have went ahead with it and built the rest of BusConnects around it.

I would hope and assume that the frequencies and even routes planned in the original BusConnects documents are not the end state. I'd rather think of it as building the bones of a overall sensible and easy to use network, but one that will be built on and increased over time.

Like will the A2 really work with less frequency (per the original doc) versus 16/41, of course not? But nothing stopping them increasing the frequency of the A2 to meet the increased demand once in place.

Though I do feel that once all these changes are made over the next few years, we really will be at the end of what you can do with buses and we need to start to convert the major bus corridors to Luas lines (and of course Metrolink/Dart+).

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122830687#Comment_122830687

I think that you need to move on from continually referencing BRT as it’s not happening. Can we at least try to discuss the forthcoming changes in terms of the actual service options.

The fact remains that in one month the number of buses an hour along the N11 passing Stillorgan will drop during the off-peak from 17 buses an hour to 12. That is not progress, let’s be honest.

hfjm20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122832059#Comment_122832059

Would an E3 terminating in Cherrywood be a potential idea?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122832059#Comment_122832059

If we are going to criticise the NTA about BusConnects then it is very much a valid criticism.

And it is well worth bringing up as it could well resolve some of the issues BusConnects now faces with lack of drivers. Put some articulated buses on the N11 and Swords road and you get a significant bump in passenger capacity for the same number of drivers and frequency.

Of course it wouldn't be in place in a months time and of course the long term solution is Luas. But lets say we ordered a fleet of 100 BRT's today to replace the VT's for delivery in the next year, they could act as a decent stop gap for a decade or more on the busiest corridors until Luas arrive.

And BTW it isn't just the N11 seeing such significant dips. The Swords Road is about to lose the 13, that will be a significant decrease in capacity south of Griffith Avenue until the A routes launch in two years time (if that)!

There is a lot I like about BusConnects, but in some ways there is an awful lot poor about it. The NTA really messed up dropping Swiftway and they have really messed up with the rollout of BusConnects. It has been pretty poor all round.

halfpastneverr

Busconnects is ignoring the very basics. There is not much use in creating corridors & spines if the use of same won't be enforced. 15 mins this morning on the N7 as bus lane was full of cars with their magic indicators on. Same this evening outbound on the way home from Kylemore Rd Junction to Red Cow Hotel. Ditto for bus gates on College Green, Bachelors Walk & Aston Quay. ANPR cameras are such an easy thing that would speed up buses, but zero political will to do bring it in. Not a hope of it being brought in once the Greens are out of government either.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122832210#Comment_122832210

Bendys would struggle to get in a lot of stops in the city centre and end up blocking other buses from getting in

dfx-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122832245#Comment_122832245

There'll be about one Dublin Bus an hour in that bus lane to the Red Cow after BusConnects takes the 13, 68 and 69 out of there.