BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

LXFlyer

Details of the BusConnects plan:

At: http://www.busconnects.ie/ and an overview here:

Note: threads merged and original opening post edited with details from bk's post -- moderator

bk wrote: »

Details of the BusConnects plan here:
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/BusConnects_Brochure_Final.pdf

While there is more detail to come (network redesign), I have to say overall it is all very welcome. It reads like pretty much everything we want to see from a modern, efficient bus service.

The main goals are:

- building a network of “next generation†bus corridors on the
busiest bus routes to make bus journeys faster, predictable
and reliable;

- introducing Bus Rapid Transit, a higher quality of bus system,
on three of the busiest corridors;

- completely redesigning the network of bus routes to provide
a more efficient network, connecting more places and
carrying more passengers;

- developing a state-of-the-art ticketing system using credit
and debit cards or mobile phones to link with payment
accounts and making payment much more convenient;

- implementing a cashless payment system to vastly speed up
passenger boarding times;

- revamping the fare system to provide a simpler fare
structure, allowing seamless movement between different
transport services without financial penalty;

- implementing a new bus livery providing a modern look and
feel to the new bus system;

- rolling out new bus stops with better signage and
information and increasing the provision of additional bus
shelters; and

- transitioning - starting now - to a new bus fleet using low-
emission vehicle technologies.

Only the third point above is affected by the network review, which doesn't seem to include the 3 new BRT routes, nor the core 11 QBC routes:



Very welcome. We have seen how the bus gate has benefited us and how widening the road at the Cat & Cage in Drumcondra was a massive success. More such projects and removal of onstreet car parking to give more space and priority to buses is highly welcome.

BTW for the planned Radial route that runs along Griffith Avenue, I don't know why they don't have it continuing along the Eastern end of Griffith Avenue.

On ticketing:



Haha, it feels like the authors of this report are literally reading my mind. I have to send the NTA my consultancy fee

On the new bus livery:

I do understand then need for a Neutral, non DB livery, however I have to say I hate the look of the new NTA livery as shown in this document.

On bus stops:



Very welcome.

On low emission buses:



The document also mentions more RTPI screens.

Overall the whole document seems to be describing exactly what we want. I hope they can implement most or all of it.

ORIGINAL POST BY LXFLYER:

I'm opening this thread ahead of the NTA announcement of the Dublin PSO Bus Network Review later this month.

The Minister for Transport gave some information on this in a D?il debate yesterday evening.

As I stated in reply to a question this afternoon, I am pleased to inform the House that the NTA will be launching an important initiative at the end of this month that will transform the bus system in the Dublin region.

The transformation of the bus network will involve a package of measures, namely,

* a network of so-called next generation bus corridors with segregated cycling facilities;
* three bus rapid transit routes;
* a complete redesign of the network;
* simpler fare structures;
* implementing a cashless payment system and a state-of-the-art ticketing system;
* implementing new bus branding;
* integrating bus vehicles of different operators and types;
* new bus stops and shelters;
* and use of low emission vehicles.

No doubt we shall learn more from the NTA in due course.

Consultants Jarrett Walker have already been appointed to carry out the network review by the NTA.

XPS_Zero

If the BE strike taught us anything it's we need to push ahead with the introduction of competition on Dublin Bus Routes.
Personally I think the following would be great improvements:
-A flat fare, cashless (think of how quickly the bus would get moving!)
-Introduce two more smartcard validators on busses so they can take more people at once
-Don't bother with a new Dublin Bus fare structure...time for zonal fare system for all Dublin transport use this as the chance to do it
-They need to reduce the number of bus stops some of them are way too close together

bk

Mostly the things that many of us have long been waiting for, hopefully it won;t take long to implement them.

* simpler fare structures;

Hopefully flat fare or tag-on/tag-off to eliminate driver interaction and reduce dwell times.

* implementing a cashless payment system and a state-of-the-art ticketing system;

Hopefully eliminating cash completely and driver interaction. Moving to London Bus style contact less debit cards, smart phone and smart watch payments.

* implementing new bus branding;

DB branding to go away? I recently saw a bus with the full NTA branding, I think it was the 817, I have to say very ugly. Though I understand and support the concept.

* integrating bus vehicles of different operators and types;

This is new, I wonder what this is about?

* new bus stops and shelters;

Hopefully the NTA taking over control of all bus stops and shelters and thus allowing them to be shared by different operators and thus less street clutter (e.g. Westmoreland Street).

* and use of low emission vehicles.

Just more Euro 6 and will they start to actually look at Hybrids?

Disappointed to not see the following mentioned:

- 24/7 running on certain routes.
- Use of the fecking back doors.
- Replacing the crappy, horribly outdated and slow wayfarer ticket machines.
- Proper integrated ticketing between bus/luas/dart. Specially important now with Luas Cross City coming soon.

LXFlyer

I think people might be best holding fire until we see the detail of the proposals - that was simply a Ministerial answer to a question.

Ultimately most of what the previous two posts want to see delivered is going to be dependent upon the Government finally providing enough funding for said proposals, which frankly has been the greatest stumbling block to any proper development of the bus network in Dublin.

bk

XPS_Zero wrote: »

-Don't bother with a new Dublin Bus fare structure...time for zonal fare system for all Dublin transport use this as the chance to do it

I disagree on that. The concept of zonal fares is a completely outdated concept that is now completely unnecessary due to technology. A zone system wouldn't fix DB's problems, you would still have to interact with the driver to tell him how many zones you will be travelling! The current stage fare system is a form of zone based travel.

No, the solution is one of the following:

- London Bus style flat fares for all city bus journeys or
- Amsterdam style tag-on/tag-off system, linked to the buses GPS system, so you are charged precisely for the distance you travel and which could be fully integrated with Luas and DART tag-on/tag-off.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

Ultimately most of what the previous two posts want to see delivered is going to be dependent upon the Government finally providing enough funding for said proposals, which frankly has been the greatest stumbling block to any proper development of the bus network in Dublin.

Yawn, the same old nonsense. Most of the above can be implemented without dipping into the tax payers pockets!

A tag-on/tag-off system could be implemented tomorrow without any change to the DB fare structure or even hardware. Just some programming on the wayfarer machines.

Likewise a flat fare could easily be designed in a revenue neutral manner with the data they have from Leap cards.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

Yawn, the same old nonsense. Most of the above can be implemented without dipping into the tax payers pockets!

A tag-on/tag-off system could be implemented tomorrow without any change to the DB fare structure or even hardware. Just some programming on the wayfarer machines.

Likewise a flat fare could easily be designed in a revenue neutral manner with the data they have from Leap cards.

No need to get personal or indeed offensive. A little bit of respect for each other and some civility would go a long way - you as a moderator should be aware of that much. This is not After Hours.

You don't agree with me, and that is your prerogative, but frankly the reality that it hasn't happened yet tells me that the NTA view the situation differently. If it all cost nothing they would have implemented it ages ago.

Implementing a flat fare has farebox implications and also political implications - whether you like it or not those two meant that it was never going to be dealt with overnight, and certainly not when the Balance Sheet of the main operator remained in a perilous state. The politics of implementing a flat fare are massive (irrespective of whether it is a good idea or not, which it is) and that's something that will have to be done (I would expect) in phases.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

No need to get personal or indeed offensive. A little bit of respect for each other and some civility would go a long way - you as a moderator should be aware of that much. This is not After Hours.

It is very annoying as every single time this topic is brought up, you say exactly the same thing, with no logic to back it up!

You have never explained why an Amsterdam style tag-on/tag-off style system can't be implemented with exactly the same fare structure as DB has today and the same hardware.

Nor have you not explained why if they decided to go with a flat fare, that based on the Leap card data, they couldn't model a revenue neutral flat fare. It would be the simplest task for any accountant to model it.

Always the same old excuse, make the tax payer give us more money!

LeinsterDub

bk wrote: »

A tag-on/tag-off system could be implemented tomorrow without any change to the DB fare structure or even hardware. Just some programming on the wayfarer machines.

Which is the equivalent of attempting to programme on a stone tablet

bk

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Which is the equivalent of attempting to programme on a stone tablet

It is, but it would also be a big simplification from the current situation.

At the moment the machines and thus the software have to support who large range of cash fares, plus an equally long list of leap fares, plus the logic for applying automated top-ups.

Eliminating cash fare completely would greatly simplify it and implementing tag-on/tag-off would also completely eliminate the leap fares and would only be slightly more complicated then the existing right hand side tag-on.

It would look like this:
- Tag-on: Deduct the max fare (adult or child depending on card type) and mark the tag-on location on the card.
- If the user tags-off later, check the tag-on location, compare to the current location, refund difference if necessary.

Actually all pretty straight forward and pretty much the same way Luas works.

Of course if you go flat fare, the above isn't necessary and it becomes super simple. You get rid of all cash and leap fare options and just adjust the tag-on fare from the current max fare to the new flat fare. Literally couldn't be simpler.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

It is very annoying as every single time this topic is brought up, you say exactly the same thing, with no logic to back it up!

You have never explained why an Amsterdam style tag-on/tag-off style system can't be implemented with exactly the same fare structure as DB has today and the same hardware.

Nor have you not explained why if they decided to go with a flat fare, that based on the Leap card data, they couldn't model a revenue neutral flat fare. It would be the simplest task for any accountant to model it.

Always the same old excuse, make the tax payer give us more money!

With respect you disagree with me. That much I can deal with.

But basically belittling me and my view as "yawn - the same old nonsense" is something I am not prepared to put up with. I couldn't care less if you're annoyed - just at least be civil. I'm as much entitled to express my view as you are yours, without being insulted. And that's precisely what you continue to do.

I don't think tag on/tag off on buses while there is still a massive number of single door buses in place is even remotely a good idea. It would make things even slower.

Again implementing a flat fare would be something that has political implications, whether you like it or not, as it will mean higher fares for a substantial number of people. That isn't going to be easy to sell.

Establishing a revenue neutral flat fare would involve an element of risk, in terms of losing customers, and unfortunately the State as such is exceptionally risk averse - we are not dealing with normal commercial enterprises here. There was no way that the NTA were going to take the risk of establishing a flat fare during the period when the Dublin Bus balance sheet was as bad as it was - it's still far from what I would term healthy. The NTA said as much several times in their annual fare determinations - any changes to the fare structure would be over a phased basis. That alone should inform you of the way that the State thinks.

And that is even before you come to deal with political opposition which can be very vocal - you only have to look at the Dun Laoghaire network review which had to be watered down significantly due to local political opposition in Sallynoggin.

The bottom line, is that things involving the public sector and particularly politicians don't change overnight in this country and if you expect them to, you're likely to be disappointed.

One look at how long it took DB to get a chance to even try to do anything like Network Direct, or indeed the ongoing shenanigans with city centre traffic should tell you everything that you need to know.

For your information, I share your frustration about the glacially slow process of change. But I think I've been around a bit longer than you have and have learnt that anything involving public sector money in this country is not going to happen with any great speed.

I'm not happy about that fact, but that's life. At the same time I don't go around insulting other people who have a different view.

bk

lxflyer last week we hear that Ireland has the second most expensive public transport in Europe.

I wouldn't mind that if we had the second best public transport network in Europe. But the opposite is true, we probably have one of the worst public transport services in Europe and that simply isn't good enough.

It is simply nonsense that the most basic improvements in public transport that were common throughout the rest of Europe 40 or 50 years ago (multi-door buses, integrated ticketing, etc.) still can't be implemented here in Ireland in the 20th century.

That when anyone suggests even the most basic improvement that the come back is always the same old tired "it will cost more money" and we need to make the taxpayer pay more for it. All while have the second most expensive public transport system.

It is complete and utter nonsense. Just like the excuses from BE for years that there was no demand for a bus service between Cork and Dublin after 6pm our demand to use a more direct service between them. BE fans said much the same nonsense then, oh we need more money to implement such a service.

Well then we saw Aircoach come along and blow BE out of the water at no cost to the taxpayer. We say that these excuses were just excuses to try and wring more money out of the taxpayer.

The truth is taxpayers of Ireland are getting screwed. It is enough with the excuses and for the public transport providers to actually deliver a high quality public transport service to reflect the second most expensive public transport service in Europe.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't think tag on/tag off on buses while there is still a massive number of single door buses in place is even remotely a good idea. It would make things even slower.

I disagree, I believe tag-on/tag-off even on single door buses would still be much faster then the current model of driver interaction. tag-on at the right validator is really fast, tagging off in reverse would be no slower, you pass it anyway.

Driver interaction is so ridiculously slow it isn't even funny. The time it takes for the Leap screen to load and the driver to select the correct fare. No way tag-off is slower then that.

Also you could have it tag-on by the driver validator, tag-off at the right hand validator, so that people could potentially pass each other by in opposite direction.

Of course non of this would be an issue for dual door buses, of which there are now many.

Finally this objection has nothing to do with finances or fare-box as you initially claimed.

lxflyer wrote: »

Again implementing a flat fare would be something that has political implications, whether you like it or not, as it will mean higher fares for a substantial number of people. That isn't going to be easy to sell.

Ah, so now, that is different. You said that the issue was fare box and finances, which is what I called nonsense. So do you now admit that there would be no financial issue with introducing a flat fare, that a flat fare that was revenue neutral could be easily selected.

I will happily admit that there would likely be political interference. That you will have those who have to pay a little more whining as always , despite others paying less and overall everyone benefiting from a better service.

But you know what, we really need to start getting some politicians with a bit of back bone. Politicians willing to say that while a small few might be a little worse off, it is better for the majority of people and the right thing to do.

It is pretty annoying that we can't change anything in Ireland for the better in case it might slightly inconvenience others.

To be honest, I'm pretty fed up with here excuses, I want to hear how we fix this and make it better for everyone.

LXFlyer

If you read back what I said - I said most things would require additional funding. I never said all.

I was referring to potentially extra validators as the other poster suggested, new ticketing machines (which clearly have been put on the back burner due to funding constraints - we were promised them in 2015-16), changing the fare structure to encompass a time based multi-modal fare basis, new bus stops, etc.

I have never made any comment about tag on/tag off being to do with funding - other than potentially requiring additional equipment - that's a technical issue. It's more a practical objection - I don't really see it happening being honest. I think it would cause too much trouble.

With regard to the flat fare I also stated that there were two elements militating against a flat fare introduction. You are again somewhat misrepresenting me.

One was political opposition, and the second was the fear within the NTA and DB of the risk losing farebox revenue as a result of the flat fare not generating the necessary revenue, and therefore requiring additional PSO funding to bridge the gap - I will stand over that statement. That risk was stated in black and white in an NTA fare determination - I don't need to defend that statement any more than that.

One could come up with a theoretical revenue neutral flat fare, but if in practice it was negative then the State would have to pick up the tab - that simply wasn't going to happen given the lack of State funds, and the precarious nature of the company's finances given that the NTA had inflicted other costs associated with LEAP implementation on it.

But hey, what do I know about any of this?

Clearly all I know is "excuses".

With respect I am not a decision maker in any of this - perhaps direct your frustration at the people who do make the decisions rather than me.

noelfirl

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect I am not a decision maker in any of this - perhaps direct your frustration at the people who do make the decisions rather than me.

Quoted absolutely for the truth.
Politicians in Ireland are absolutely useless when it comes to taking broad, sweeping, effectual and committed decisions with regards to public transport. No point blaming lxflyer for that.

monument

This is a note for both sides here: Keeo it civil and everybody forget about personalities -- no focusing on others or yourself, just deal with the topic at hand. Thank you all!

-- moderator

monument

There was an interisting Strong Towns podcast featuring Jarrett Walker last week --

It's US-centric and does not cover Dublin at all, but it gives insight into his thinking on "coverage vs ridership" in terms of public transport services and being open in debating this.

He comes across as agnostic enough but says cities need to be honest on what they are doing -- if the goal is ridership (ie moving more people and sticking to QBC) or coverage (serving housing estates etc), it doesn't matter but he says those planning the network need to be open about what they are doing.

http://shoutengine.com/StrongTownsPodcast/human-transit-35668

triple nipple

bk wrote:

- London Bus style flat fares for all city bus journeys or - Amsterdam style tag-on/tag-off system, linked to the buses GPS system, so you are charged precisely for the distance you travel and which could be fully integrated with Luas and DART tag-on/tag-off.

Tag on and off at the bus stop? Like the Luas.

murphaph

triple nipple wrote: »

Tag on and off at the bus stop? Like the Luas.

I think it's the ideal solution but the hardware costs would be immense, even with a rationalisation in the number of stops. There must be thousands of bus stops on the network.

If we simply had buses with multiple doors with tag on at the front and tag off at the back it would be fine.

An aggressive revenue protection system would need to be in place with support from dedicated transport police. We can but dream.

thomasj

murphaph wrote:

I think it's the ideal solution but the hardware costs would be immense, even with a rationalisation in the number of stops. There must be thousands of bus stops on the network.

Isn't it the plan for the BRT that people tag on/off at the limited stops?

loyatemu

thomasj wrote: »

Isn't it the plan for the BRT that people tag on/off at the limited stops?

yeah but they'll effectively be like Luas stops with one every KM or so

DB has thousands of poles, many way too close together. However I don't see why a tag-on/off pole would need to be much more complicated than a parking machine and they seem fairly easy to deploy in large numbers (and are solar powered). Another comparable example would be the "BigBelly" solar bins many councils are installing.

murphaph

thomasj wrote: »

Isn't it the plan for the BRT that people tag on/off at the limited stops?

For BRT it makes absolute sense to tag on/off on the (limited) "platforms". But equipping every stop on the network with power/comms/readers would be folly IMO. The money could be much better spent elsewhere.

Dravokivich

bk wrote: »

Eliminating cash fare completely would greatly simplify it and implementing tag-on/tag-off would also completely eliminate the leap fares and would only be slightly more complicated then the existing right hand side tag-on.

It would look like this:
- Tag-on: Deduct the max fare (adult or child depending on card type) and mark the tag-on location on the card.
- If the user tags-off later, check the tag-on location, compare to the current location, refund difference if necessary.

Actually all pretty straight forward and pretty much the same way Luas works.

Luas doesn't have a multitude of stops. Each Validator will need to be able to calculate the fare of each potential journey, for each Card type.

You look at it as:
Touch On amount - Number of stops/stages/Zone Distance = Fare

But the memory limitations on the device won't be able to do that for each route from a Depot, let alone all of the routes Dublin Bus provide as each Validator / Wayfarer needs them uploaded onto them.

Doing it by getting the difference on Stop Numbers won't suffice either as they aren't all in sequence.

The first hurdle to implementing Tag On/Off for Dublin Bus is hardware.

triple nipple wrote: »

Tag on and off at the bus stop? Like the Luas.

The Luas only does 2 directions. Inbound and Outbound. If Dublin Bus were to implement something like that, Each stop will have to have every potential fare, for every potential route that'll use it. With Luas and Irish Rail, they look up tables and provide the applicable rebate that is defined for the Origin / Destination and Card Type.

monument

A few people seem confused by this last warning:

monument wrote: »

This is a note for both sides here: Keep it civil and everybody forget about personalities -- no focusing on others or yourself, just deal with the topic at hand. Thank you all!

-- moderator

This is not directed at one person and it did not quote any post.

-- moderator

wordofwarning

IMO we need someone with the balls to end the scenic routes on the last 10-15 mins on a lot of bus routes. If you look at the 9, 11, 16, 46a, 40 etc. The buses at the final dozen stops tend to be going to housing estates with no one getting on or off. It is lovely that Adele can get on the bus outside of her house to collect her weekly pension in the GPO. But the last 10 mins of bus routes serving a minority to the disadvantage of the majority needs to be reconsidered. Thankfully DB culled a lot of the scenic routes during the recession, but more needs to be culled

Buses need to finish earlier and start later. If you go to any German city, there are night buses that are generally hourly midweek and bihourly during the weekend. Workers can get to work early. The first DB in the morning on my route is packed, as people carely would want to get into work earlier if possible

IMO student discount travel should only be for state sponsored second and third level institutions ie the VECs, ITs, TCD, UCD etc. The student discount should not be able for someone in a visa factory, who is 'studying' English. But is really here for a work permit. In Germany, the student travel discount is amazing ie about 50% off normal fares. We should give students in proper education, a decent discount on travel. It would be possible if we were not giving subsidised travel to people here 'studying' English ie here to work on using a student visa

end of the road

wordofwarning wrote: »

IMO we need someone with the balls to end the scenic routes on the last 10-15 mins on a lot of bus routes. If you look at the 9, 11, 16, 46a, 40 etc. The buses at the final dozen stops tend to be going to housing estates with no one getting on or off. It is lovely that Adele can get on the bus outside of her house to collect her weekly pension in the GPO. But the last 10 mins of bus routes serving a minority to the disadvantage of the majority needs to be reconsidered. Thankfully DB culled a lot of the scenic routes during the recession, but more needs to be culled

this is nothing to do with not having "balls"
this is to do with the fact that these routes serve a social need. the fact the routes that do go through housing estates weren't removed means that it is felt these routes serve a purpose and there is no good reason to remove them from the estates.

wordofwarning wrote: »

Buses need to finish earlier and start later. If you go to any German city, there are night buses that are generally hourly midweek and bihourly during the weekend. Workers can get to work early. The first DB in the morning on my route is packed, as people carely would want to get into work earlier if possible

i presume you mean finish later and start earlier?

wordofwarning wrote: »

IMO student discount travel should only be for state sponsored second and third level institutions ie the VECs, ITs, TCD, UCD etc. The student discount should not be able for someone in a visa factory, who is 'studying' English. But is really here for a work permit. In Germany, the student travel discount is amazing ie about 50% off normal fares. We should give students in proper education, a decent discount on travel. It would be possible if we were not giving subsidised travel to people here 'studying' English ie here to work on using a student visa

what if they are studying english in one of those state sponsored institutions?

KD345

There's an article in today's Irish Times detailing the timeline. Local authority meetings start next month, public consultations then follow, with the plan finalised by the end of 2017. Changes to be implemented in the first six months of 2018.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/redesign-of-dublin-bus-network-to-begin-next-month-1.3081356?mode=amp

dashcamdanny

end of the road wrote: »

this is nothing to do with not having "balls"
this is to do with the fact that these routes serve a social need. the fact the routes that do go through housing estates weren't removed means that it is felt these routes serve a purpose and there is no good reason to remove them from the estates.

I do agree with you here, but is there really a need to put a stop every 100m, less in some of these areas.

The bus picks up very able bodied young people using free travel passes to go 100m up or down the road. Delaying everyone else because they a bone lazy TBH. As you know, this is regular enough. I dont think that having so many stops is a social need...

murphaph

The idea of a root and branch review of the network is very welcome indeed. The only thing I would say is that people who find they need to change bus after the review who previously did not have to, should not be financially penalised. This would necessitate a change in the fare structure obviously.

LuckyLloyd

Stop frequency can certainly be reviewed. But route coverage is an entirely different matter. Coverage is required in large suburban housing estate areas. Potentially the way to win the war here is buying imp type buses and putting them to work as people carriers from the depths of large estates out to main arteries. In the Ballyfermot / Finglas area I think the portions of the 79 / 40 that would be considered "extraneous" could be served in this fashion.

That's not easy mind. You need to plan in a manner completely different to the way in which the current network operates though and would require integrated ticketing and fare structures that don't currently exist for non Leap Card users (the bulk of the users affected by this particular topic).

But notions of just cutting service like this aren't realistic to be blunt about it.

n97 mini

A simple improvement that could be done right now is have the validator on the right charge the maximum fare from the current location to the end of the route, not the absolute maximum fare. I have noticed when I get the bus (usually one of the 66s) once we get to Heuston Station everyone boarding has to interact with the driver from there on in, as the validator is still charging €2.60 even though there are less than 13 stages left on the route.

This has to affect every single route.

AlekSmart

n97 mini wrote: »

A simple improvement that could be done right now is have the validator on the right charge the maximum fare from the current location to the end of the route, not the absolute maximum fare. I have noticed when I get the bus (usually one of the 66s) once we get to Heuston Station everyone boarding has to interact with the driver from there on in, as the validator is still charging €2.60 even though there are less than 13 stages left on the route.

This has to affect every single route.

Totally agree here...I wonder why some intern has'nt spotted the ease with which this could be done...?

boobycharlton

I always assumed it was because the old, crap ticketing machines don't have the capability to do so.

hmmm

KD345 wrote: »

There's an article in today's Irish Times detailing the timeline. Local authority meetings start next month, public consultations then follow, with the plan finalised by the end of 2017. Changes to be implemented in the first six months of 2018.

Public consultations are going to lead to bus stops every hundred yards and buses going down every back alley.

We need less public consultation, and more of a dictatorial approach by professionals.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

Public consultations are going to lead to bus stops every hundred yards and buses going down every back alley.

We need less public consultation, and more of a dictatorial approach by professionals.

public consultation is the only acceptible way now and rightly so. we are the users of the service and we are entitled to a say on how our service is operated, and a say we must get. it's the users who will know if the service meets their needs after all.

KD345

hmmm wrote: »

Public consultations are going to lead to bus stops every hundred yards and buses going down every back alley.

We need less public consultation, and more of a dictatorial approach by professionals.

I think there can be room for both. The bus service is funded by the public and its important communities have a voice in their services.

I think the difference between this project and Network Direct back in 2010 is that this is not a cost cutting exercise. Although presented as improvements, the public were not fooled by the cuts that came with Network Direct. It was widely reported how the bus fleet was being reduced, and for all the positives that came with Network Direct it was very often overshadowed by routes being cut. I remember protests happening across many parts of the city, and even a "save the 19" street party in Inchicore. Residents in Tolka Valley tied balloons to bus stops when the 83a was introduced after weeks of campaigning to restore a bus service through the estate.

I understand some people get annoyed when it appears buses take long winding routes to destinations, but the fact is that the service is being used by locals. Not every route needs to be direct. In Finglas, the 40 meanders its way across the housing estates but is always full, on the flipsde the 140 does an excellent job running directly along the Finglas Road.

I agree with murphaph, getting the fare structure right is crucial. Ideally, any new fare system should be launched when the Luas cross city line opens. There needs to be one fare per journey, regardless of what mode you use or how many connections required.

I'm looking forward to seeing the plans and improvements. This will probably see the first of the 24 hour routes come into place and also the introduction of new orbital services.

VG31

KD345 wrote: »

I understand some people get annoyed when it appears buses take long winding routes to destinations, but the fact is that the service is being used by locals. Not every route needs to be direct. In Finglas, the 40 meanders its way across the housing estates but is always full, on the flipsde the 140 does an excellent job running directly along the Finglas Road.

The 140 is a good, reasonably fast direct route but it is not frequent enough. Before the route was changed a few years ago it ran on a 10 min frequency but now it's been cut to a 15-20 min frequency which is ridiculous considering the sheer volume of people that use the route. It needs to be every 5-7 mins in the height of the morning rush-hour rather than 10-15 mins. I cannot get the 140 after 07:30 as all the buses are full.

The 40 is far too long for a bus route. It should be split up into separate Northside and Southside routes.

cgcsb

KD345 wrote: »

There's an article in today's Irish Times detailing the timeline. Local authority meetings start next month, public consultations then follow, with the plan finalised by the end of 2017. Changes to be implemented in the first six months of 2018.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/redesign-of-dublin-bus-network-to-begin-next-month-1.3081356?mode=amp

A US based consultancy will redesign our bus system, because yanks are great at public transport :rolleyes: and this is a FG lead initiative, cost reduction will be central. The plan will probably result in removing bus lanes and building more central car parks.

Also I note the timeline public consultation to completion inside 12 months, hmm something tells me this was supposed to be done long before the new luas opens.

devnull

Actually you will find that the consultancy was selected following an open tender process and has experience of designing and working on transport briefs throughout the world and not just across America.

It's also no co-incidence the implementation s planned to happen after the Cross City Luas works are completed because that will have a substantial impact on traffic flow, passenger flows and Dublin Bus routes.

But lets not have facts get in the way of a good rant.

hmmm

devnull wrote: »

It's also no co-incidence the implementation s planned to happen after the Cross City Luas works are completed because that will have a substantial impact on traffic flow, passenger flows and Dublin Bus routes.

I'm concerned that this will be used as a get-out-of-jail card by transport managers (including the Minister) if the LUAS turns into a disaster for bus users. It will be very convenient to deflect criticism by saying there is a review underway.

I don't understand the timing of this at all. This should have been done before the LUAS implementation, or after we knew the impact - not during.

hmmm

end of the road wrote: »

public consultation is the only acceptible way now and rightly so. we are the users of the service and we are entitled to a say on how our service is operated, and a say we must get. it's the users who will know if the service meets their needs after all.

Public consultations tend to attract the usual busybodies with lots of time on their hands. They tend to attract politicians who are eager to pack as many services as possible into their local areas. They don't much care if the bus takes 2 hours to get from the city centre to the terminus, as long as someone can walk out their front door to get on a bus and pick up their pension once a week.

Consultations don't tend to attract younger people, or people who work during the day - ironically some of the key users of buses.

cgcsb

devnull wrote: »

Actually you will find that the consultancy was selected following an open tender process and has experience of designing and working on transport briefs throughout the world and not just across America.

It's also no co-incidence the implementation s planned to happen after the Cross City Luas works are completed because that will have a substantial impact on traffic flow, passenger flows and Dublin Bus routes.

But lets not have facts get in the way of a good rant.

I remain sceptical, yes things will change after BXD and there is sufficient data available to model that change and design a new bus system around that. Waiting until after the fact to do a review just smacks of a little last-minute syndrome that's endemic in Irish officialdom.

markpb

KD345 wrote: »

Changes to be implemented in the first six months of 2016

That's hilarious. How long did it take to get Network Direct past the unions? They'll be lucky to get agreement that there should even be any changes.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

Public consultations tend to attract the usual busybodies with lots of time on their hands. They tend to attract politicians who are eager to pack as many services as possible into their local areas. They don't much care if the bus takes 2 hours to get from the city centre to the terminus, as long as someone can walk out their front door to get on a bus and pick up their pension once a week.

that's democracy for you. as the people own and use the dublin bus service, we are entitled to a say on how it operates via a public consultation. the authorities have a democratic duty to take our views on board, even if our suggestions can't be implemented. people who know nothing of whether the service meets the people's needs have been the main reason why our transport system is nothing near what it could be. even currently i'm not sure how much our views are taken on board.

hmmm wrote: »

Consultations don't tend to attract younger people, or people who work during the day - ironically some of the key users of buses.

according to who? if people don't take part in a democratic process that is their choice but they can't be surprised then when they won't have their needs in terms of service provision met.

Spanish Eyes

Flat fare, no interraction with driver, prepaid tickets, like abroad.

Expand the distances between bus stops.

ORBITAL ROUTES please. The lack thereof is causing much of the gridlock in the city centre.

I live in hope.

Stephen15

Dermot O'Leary is now giving out that staff arent being consulted on the changes. Absolutely digraceful no changes have even been drawn up yet and he's already giving out. Its nothing to do with unions anyway.

end of the road

Stephen15 wrote: »

Dermot O'Leary is now giving out that staff arent being consulted on the changes. Absolutely digraceful no changes have even been drawn up yet and he's already giving out. Its nothing to do with unions anyway.

it actually is very much everything to do with unions if there could be potential for any proposed changes to effect the members negatively.
in saying that, i would agree staff currently have nothing to be consulted on as no specifics have been proposed.

devnull

Stephen15 wrote: »

Dermot O'Leary is now giving out that staff arent being consulted on the changes. Absolutely digraceful no changes have even been drawn up yet and he's already giving out. Its nothing to do with unions anyway.

This is the crux of many of the problems with public transport in this country.

Too much interference and people putting their own agendas over the bigger picture, you're seeing it with the car park owners dictating the way our roads are used and who gets priority, you see it with unions demanding to be consulted on changes to how the bus service is managed, you see it with politicians also interfering in order to win votes in their area even if it leads to a far worse service for a higher number of people.

The trouble is in reality if you try and please everyone you end up pleasing nobody, which is one of the reasons that the network is the way it is at the moment, it's trying to be everything to all people and give everyone what they want, which means what you end up with is the mess we have at present.

There's an excellent article from around 5 years ago on the same thing that says it well:
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2012/10/confusing-and-nonsensical-grandeur-dublin-transport/3657/

A greater problem might be the city's transit history: the local bus system is so engrained in the culture that people fear losing a "direct" connection to the city center — even though the BRT network that could replace the local buses would get them there more quickly.

The likes of O'Leary couldn't care less about the public service element of the jobs that their members do. They simply care about doing whatever is best for their members, ironically spending their whole time moaning about management not managing properly, whilst the whole time not allowing management to manage because everything has to be approved by them first and saying that they should be consulted.

This is fundamentally why the public and semi-state sector is flawed in Ireland, it was intended to be set-up to serve the public first and foremost but is not effective in doing so because the Public Sector unions believe that they should be consulted on every single change that is made well before the good of the public is considered, which is against the whole idea of a public sector company which is set-up to avoid vested interests. This is something that does not happen in the likes of Germany where the public is First and last.

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

it actually is very much everything to do with unions if there could be potential for any proposed changes to effect the members negatively.

It's a public service, the public must come first, that is the whole idea of a public company, ahead of the vested interests of private gain and other parties* as the unions have been happily stating over and over again after the last number of months.

* Unless it's them, in which case it's perfectly allowed.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

The likes of O'Leary couldn't care less about the public service element of the jobs that their members do. They simply care about doing whatever is best for their members, ironically spending their whole time moaning about management not managing properly, whilst the whole time not allowing management to manage because everything has to be approved by them first and saying that they should be consulted.

but that is their job. that is what unions are there for, to look after the interests of their members. nothing more nothing less. i get some may not like that but that is the reality of the situation.

Stephen15

end of the road wrote: »

but that is their job. that is what unions are there for, to look after the interests of their members. nothing more nothing less. i get some may not like that but that is the reality of the situation.

So tell me how are route changes going to effect workers and t+c's.