Terrorist Attack in Manchester (Read MOD WARNING in OP Updated 24/05/2017))

JPCN1

......... wrote: »

muppetshow wrote: »

According to the terrorist himself it does.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/this-only-beginning-sick-video-10480115

The last bombing in Manchester was in 1996, and it wasn't Islamists.

Indeed, and I was very conscious of that walking around Manchester today. Most decent Irish people abhor the cnuts that did that but there is a sizeable minority who though it was okay. There was a goal of sorts which could and would have come with time but here it seems like it won't be as simple.

muppetshow

mikeybrennan wrote: »

They don't need trained bomb makers in the UK

The bomb makers can instruct over the internet easily

You can find it all over internet.
search terrorist handbook and its all there.
http://www.dvc.org.uk/cygnet/tthb.pdf
Funny this comes from a UK site as well??

neonsofa

pjohnson wrote: »

What are my "own ends" I simply want the creatures dealt with before the kill anymore innocent people. Others are very loud in how nothing must be done. Doing nothing furthers all of our ends if we are near the next explosion.

What should be done?

Gamebred

The book a police officer was holding at his address, sun claim he trained in Syria (sun are hardly reliable tbf)

The Backwards Man

pjohnson wrote: »

What are my "own ends" I simply want the creatures dealt with before the kill anymore innocent people. Others are very loud in how nothing must be done. Doing nothing furthers all of our ends if we are near the next explosion.

Who said nothing must be done? Of course something must be done, things are being done, every day, people are putting themselves in harm's way every day to get things done. Every decent person in the world wants to rid the world of terrorist assholes, just because most of us know how complicated the solutions are doesn't mean we think nothing should be done.

SkepticQuark

DERICKOO wrote: »

Why don't we just tell them we will send them back to there original country and just open the door.
There are just no words time to change the rules there is no other way to survive in the future if we value democracy.
I as an individual can do little.

"Original country" for some of them is in Europe though. I would support deporting any immigrant, if they can't abide by the laws of a country they are staying in or they are teaching radical beliefs to anyone. The watch list should be used for that purpose really if police have decent evidence someone is planning an attack that should be enough to deport them. People would make you think though not advocating for a "kill list" means you automatically want nothing done.

SkepticQuark

pjohnson wrote: »

What are my "own ends" I simply want the creatures dealt with before the kill anymore innocent people. Others are very loud in how nothing must be done. Doing nothing furthers all of our ends if we are near the next explosion.

A straw man once again, much easier to destroy an argument of "oh they want us to do nothing" then "well this is a situation that requires nuance" isn't it.... It's amazing how you've repeated this claim over and over and despite people pointing out how ridiculous it is you are still at it hours later.

Danzy

It seems making the explosives, which they suspect is TATP is the easy part,not having it explode at a slight vibration or bit of heat is the part that sorts the chaff from wheat in bomb making.

Speculation that there is a trained maker about.

Not that hard to imagine, enough have left England to fight in Syria that they must have some formidable skills at this stage.

.........

muppetshow wrote: »

No,but thats a loong time ago,and have there been any since from the same terrorists in 1996?No,thought so.
Here is the list of the people you are defending.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

I'm not the one making any distinctions between terrorists who murder women and children, you are.

pjohnson

roddy15 wrote: »

A straw man once again, much easier to destroy an argument of "oh they want us to do nothing" then "well this is a situation that requires nuance" isn't it.... It's amazing how you've repeated this claim over and over and despite people pointing out how ridiculous it is you are still at it hours later.

This mythical "nuance/intelligent" ideals you lot keep preaching keep failing. In a years time will you still be prattling about this "solution" same as ye did after the Charlie Hebdo or Bataclan attacks? This magical "solution" certainly appears to do nothing. Sorry if my hours of indignation annoy you. Your lots years of nothing changing causes death.

The_Kew_Tour

Zero Tolerance is the only way.

We must come out the other side with a safer Europe.

Its not going to disappear and it will continue to happen, but it can be fixed to make it a shock rather then a once every few weeks occurrence.

4068ac1elhodqr

Worth mentioning this isn't just an attack, it was an attack on 'music, culture, sport and light entertainment',
all the creations the West, and much of the world take for granted.

Ms Grande was probably frowned upon due to her style of dress, maybe those who support such an act would have preferred only to see her eyes. Meanwhile her tour is likely to be canceled and the threat level has now been raised to 'critical'.

Should say I once stumbled into an Islamic 'Art Gallery' of sorts. Now each to their own but was very far from impressed.
- Essentially can only describe it as around 16 walls across 4 rooms, of repetitive tile or mosaic patterns displayed with grandeur in large frames each lit by spotlights, no other artistic representation, just patterns.

Give me the imagery of Ariana any day over that.

jackofalltrades

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I didn't say that, please don't put words in my mouth.

Of course it's Islamic extremists that are the problem but you are trying to make out like the religion and it's followers as a whole are dangerous and I was merely pointing out that that's just not true.

Of course it's Islamic extremists but you get upset when I point this out.
Again can you point out where I tarred all Muslims with the same brush?
Backup your claim or withdraw it.

wonderfullife wrote: »

1999 Poll in the Republic of Ireland:

https://www.abdn.ac.uk/staffpages/uploads/soc207/polviolence.pdf

45.2% of people surveyed had "sympathy for the IRA".

How many of those 45.2% were involved in terrorism? Probably none of those surveyed.

There's a bloody massive difference between having some ideological support/sympathy for a cause and in actually getting involved in violence and terrorism.

Your point is nonsense. So what if people here had sympathy for the ideological struggle of a United Ireland or if ordinary Muslims have sympathy for a struggle against the West?

You're presenting the idea that ordinary people in the Republic of Ireland were the problem for sympathising with the struggles of the IRA and that ordinary Muslims are the problem for sympathising with Jihadi struggles.

Complete waffle.

I'm sorry was the UK formerly a Muslim state that was planted by the British?
Are Muslim people being treated as second class citizens, are they being burnt out of their houses by loyalist mobs?
Because unless you can answer Yes to both the above question then your the one talking "nonsense" and "waffle".
Do people really have no better argument than IRA whataboutery.

ThisRegard

DERICKOO wrote: »

Why don't we just tell them we will send them back to there original country and just, open the door''.the plane i mean.

"Their" country, England you mean?

ceadaoin.

end of the road wrote: »

european governments are doing what they can, but they are unlikely to "do something about it" in the way you would like.



really? i think you will find plenty on here will condemn any bigotry and discrimination toards jews. that fact doesn't fit your agenda though.

Can you enlighten me as to what my "agenda" is please? If you're going to say I'm far right or whatever, you're wrong

SkepticQuark

pjohnson wrote: »

This mythical "nuance/intelligent" ideals you lot keep preaching keep failing. In a years time will you still be prattling about this "solution" same as ye did after the Charlie Hebdo or Bataclan attacks? This magical "solution" certainly appears to do nothing.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but I actually disagree in a lot of ways with the current solution that is being tried. Again nice try though trying to give me an argument you want so you can "take me down". Nuance is not mythical, there is a middle ground between open border policies and "LET'S KILL THEM!" Maybe if you and the "let's open our borders to everyone!" crowd both got out of your trenches we could get there.

Beyondgone

......... wrote: »

What exactly is "hard man" about some pimply 20 year old blowing up women and kids or anyone with an IED ?

Europe has had the pimply kids. Eventually, they'll get the hard men. If you're naïve enough to think ISIS(lol - is there such a thing?) is populated by lone wolves who have too much internet, you're naïve. They have battle-hardened people too. We've seen what the pimply kids can do so far. It will switch up in a while.

FrancieBrady

Niall Collins shambolic and shameful defence of Shannon's use by the US is all you need to know about why this problem is not going to go away.
We have as a society learned nothing from our own experience.

.........

Beyondgone wrote: »

Europe has had the pimply kids. Eventually, they'll get the hard men. If you're naïve enough to think ISIS(lol - is there such a thing?) is populated by lone wolves who have too much internet, you're naïve. They have battle-hardened people too. We've seen what the pimply kids can do so far. It will switch up in a while.

It doesn't matter where they come from.
You still haven't explained what is "hard man" about murdering people ?
You're the niave one if you think that is "hard man"

Mod-Banned

Beyondgone

......... wrote: »

It doesn't matter where they come from.
You still haven't explained what is "hard man" about murdering people ?

Quantity. Pretty much. By "hard", I mean better at it. They do have a lot of people in reserve. It's the War there isn't anyone winning.

Danzy

......... wrote: »

You still haven't explained what is "hard man" about murdering people ?

Are you being pedantic or no understanding of context?

Isn't fairly obvious that his point is that the people behind the awful attacks of the last 2 years have nearly all been people with bare training, if any.

The "hard men" who he refers to are the ones who have battle experience, training, experience and probably weapons as well.

Maybe you just are not familiar with the term used and are reading it in a limited way.

wonderfullife

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Because understanding intent helps us with our reaction. A consistent, coordinated effort to undermine our societies and the way we live our lives, yet we should give it the same intellectual rigour as something like allergies. That's what you are saying? I think kids getting blown up at a pop concert in manchester is hard to overreact to, or at least it should be ffs

Who is "we"?

How do "we" live our lives?

Are you talking about 'our' culture? What's our culture?

There's millions of Muslims in the UK born-and-bred who love their country, play sport for their country, fight and bleed for their country. Just like there's millions of Christians and millions of atheists.

Who's this "we" you speak of that Radical Islamists seek to undermine the way "we" live?

What I believe in is giving the threat a name (Radical Islamic Terror) and giving the threat full perspective.

The full perspective for the people of the UK is that over 120,000 people have died from suicide, murder, drowning, car accidents in the last 15 years. In the same period less than 80 have died at the hands of Islamic terrorists.

80 too many for sure, but get a grip on the actual perspective of the "threat they pose" to life and way of life.

The hyperbole is nauseating and constantly used as a euphemism for people who simply want a "white country".

I haven't lost sight of the fact 22 innocent women, children lost their lives last night. The threat is real. Responding to the threat is proper. Just don't exaggerate the scale of the problem.

Ken.

mod- ....... is banned. Stop asking him/her questions cause they can't answer.

gitzy16v

wonderfullife wrote: »

The full perspective for the people of the UK is that over 120,000 people have died from suicide, murder, drowning, car accidents in the last 15 years. In the same period less than 80 have died at the hands of Islamic terrorists.

Its ok lads,go back to whatever ye were doing before theres more dead from accidents,suicide and murder:rolleyes:
Nothing to see here.

Persephone kindness

Persephone kindness wrote: »

Terrible things happening in the world today guys. Well everyday...but Manchester is close. Feels close. I feel sad. The police have named him.
22 Salman Abedi

His family are libyan. His father is anti ISIS and very outspokenly anti jihadi.

Has his father gone back to Libya to fight against ISIS? Did he not notice anything about his son before leaving?

People around him said recently he had been acting odd and chanting prayers on the street developing an aggressive attitude and being withdrawn.

Quote:
Mohammed Saeed, the imam of Didsbury Mosque and Islamic Centre, said Salman Abedi had looked at him ?with hate? after he gave a sermon criticising Isis and Ansar al-Sharia in Libya?Salman showed me a face of hate after that sermon,? he said. ?He was showing me hatred.?

Saeed said a friend was so worried that he got his adult children to sit beside Salman Amedi in case he attacked the imam..
Showing disrespect to an imam is not done ..it's just not.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-ariana-grande

From these reports it actually appears his muslin community actively tried to make sure their followers including Abedi were not radicalized. It sounds like he was ill.

So many people will not get their children back now. RIP. Prayers...there are no words really are there...



In the Muslim community.It's not. It's highly unusual. That is what i mean.

They are shown huge respect. For a Muslim of a mosque to show disrespect is very odd. It's haraam ...you stand at the saying out loud of the title imam in a religious assembly as a muslim

https://www.al-islam.org/mikyalul-ma...ion-imams-name

For Sunni's they are like priests ..for the Shia they are appointed by god ..so yeah it's odd for a muslim to act like that toward an Imam.

His neighbours say they knew he was acting odd and chanting on the street for weeks. But no one reported it.

Youngest Victim is 8.

So there you go ..his family were anti Isis and anti Jihadi...his imam was anti Isis anti Jihadi and anti the Ansar al-Sharia militia. They actively preached this. He was chanting on the street. He was ill. He made an angry bitter choice to ignore his community .

An incredibly specific illness eh? Some of the "Muslim community" tried some very soft ways to "help" him, but they didn't report him despite apparently being very worried. Others in the "Muslim community" supplied him with the means to slaughter some kids at a pop concert.
EDIT: Scratch that, saying they tried to help him (based on what you've posted) is overstating things, they just took steps to protect themselves.

Beanybabog

How come there are so many missing people in this matter? I don't mean to be disrespectful but the number of deceased and injured, while large and appalling, isn't so enormous that information couldn't be managed? I've seen heartbreaking pleas for information and I'm at loss to know whether the kids are in fact missing somehow or are they presumed deceased but they aren't identified and/or the hospitals / police aren't telling the families?

Ulysses Gaze

wonderfullife wrote: »

Who is "we"?

How do "we" live our lives?

Are you talking about 'our' culture? What's our culture?

There's millions of Muslims in the UK born-and-bred who love their country, play sport for their country, fight and bleed for their country. Just like there's millions of Christians and millions of atheists.

Who's this "we" you speak of that Radical Islamists seek to undermine the way "we" live?

What I believe in is giving the threat a name (Radical Islamic Terror) and giving the threat full perspective.

The full perspective for the people of the UK is that over 120,000 people have died from suicide, murder, drowning, car accidents in the last 15 years. In the same period less than 80 have died at the hands of Islamic terrorists.

80 too many for sure, but get a grip on the actual perspective of the "threat they pose" to life and way of life.

The hyperbole is nauseating and constantly used as a euphemism for people who simply want a "white country".

I haven't lost sight of the fact 22 innocent women, children lost their lives last night. The threat is real. Responding to the threat is proper. Just don't exaggerate the scale of the problem.

You're still throwing out that false equivalence, I see. Peanuts, car crashes, lightning strikes, the Wrath of God....

Intent is the key which you obfuscate on.

What is your suggestion for tackling the problem which does exist? And it is a much bigger problem then you seem to want to admit to.

AllForIt

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Zero Tolerance is the only way.

We must come out the other side with a safer Europe.

Its not going to disappear and it will continue to happen, but it can be fixed to make it a shock rather then a once every few weeks occurrence.

I agree with this. It should be a criminal offence for any person in the UK to access on their home computers anything to do with extremist Islamic ideology or indeed any kind of hateful extremist views.

I have heard in the media that people have been identified but nothing can be done. They have been identified by their online activities but can't be arrested because then haven't done anything yet.

Then lets make it illegal to access such content and arrest ppl before they carry out atrocities. If we are going to give up our online privacy then at least take action to make it worth it.

Junkyard Tom

The attack would be considered a major success by ISIS, or whoever, if the measures the keyboard warriors are calling for were enacted.

We should ban any vestige of that Wahabi-fascism that Saudi Arabia likes to export. Ultimately the head of the snake is Saudi Arabia (SA) itself. It's a pity the US/West didn't go into SA and dismantle the place after the Saudi hijackers flew passenger aircraft into the twin towers.

cournioni

Murrisk wrote: »

It's because people feel protective of peaceful Muslims. We are all well acquainted with the Catholic religion in this country and know that most of its followers are good people. The Muslim religion is much more of an unknown quantity to many. And both religions have a chequered history of causing death, in different ways. Muslims are more... dramatic, I guess, in their way of achieving it, Catholicism is more insidious. But nobody would argue that most Catholics aren't peaceful. IMO, most Muslims deserve the same regard. Would people have been happy 20, 30 years ago to be lumped in the IRA just because they happened to be Irish?

Again, you're missing the point. The issue isn't Muslim's per say, as a Muslim is a person that follows the Islamic ideology. The problem is the ideology itself.

Some of the things that come from the Quran have absolutely no place in modern society, and some Muslims (people), take that literally and seriously.

This is the crux of the issue, as ISIS members interpretation of it is very literal indeed.

What disappointed me most about Muslims (the people), if you want to go down that road was the lack of condemnation for the Charlie Hebdo attacks. One Muslim I knew (who I thought was quite moderate) showed his true colours by putting a "Je suis Mohammed" slogan as his WhatsApp photo after the shootings. Needless to say I have no interest in being in contact with him ever again after that.