Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

Webbs

awec wrote: »

We have stepped up from where we were.

But there is more to come, I don't think this Ireland team has reached it's potential yet. A Grand Slam would be the feather in Schmidt's cap for his Ireland tenure. A championship with this Ireland team is a great achievement but better riches are within reach.

I really don't care about years gone by. They are irrelevant.

Whilst Ireland havent reached their potential I would argue that Scotland and Wales would have the greater upward curve to come.

This championship as I said before was all about Ire and Eng, the other teams were either in all sort of trouble France or on a change of style and patterns of play that would have their ups and downs (Scot, Wal). That left the 2 most settled teams to fight it out and I wouldnt expect it to be anything different come the last weekend.

thomond2006

#CrookedSchmidt Apologists already excusing a possible FAILING Grand Slam! So untrustworthy! Sad!

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Said nobody ever.

It's extremely disappointing that people want to twist having high expectations for an excellent Irish team into people having something against Schmidt. It's just so reductive.

If we win the Championship it will be a great result. If we win a Grand Slam it will be a historic result. It's a very Irish thing to be afraid of that fact.

Professor Moriarty

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's extremely disappointing that people want to twist having high expectations for an excellent Irish team into people having something against Schmidt. It's just so reductive.

If we win the Championship it will be a great result. If we win a Grand Slam it will be a historic result. It's a very Irish thing to be afraid of that fact.

Never a truer word.

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's extremely disappointing that people want to twist having high expectations for an excellent Irish team into people having something against Schmidt. It's just so reductive.

If we win the Championship it will be a great result. If we win a Grand Slam it will be a historic result. It's a very Irish thing to be afraid of that fact.

Ah, I think it's just the recognition that going to Twickenham and getting a win is an event that's rarer than hen's teeth. Especially against an England team that are probably on the best run of form in the history of English rugby.

They got spanked roundly in Edinburgh and have to go to Paris next. But if (as is expected) they beat France there, then they may well have skin in the game.

Having said that, I think I'd prefer to meet an England team with the shackles on than the shackles off.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's extremely disappointing that people want to twist having unrealistic expectations for an excellent Irish team into people having something against Schmidt. It's just so reductive.

If we win the Championship it will be a great result. If we win a Grand Slam it will be a historic result. It's a very Irish thing to be afraid of that fact.

FYP and it highlights where you have missed the point.

I think Ireland *can* beat England in Twickenham, but I would never expect them to do it. Expecting something means it's very likely to happen. That is not the case, and the bookies will likely have us to lose by between 3 and 5 points unless something goes badly wrong for England in the meantime.

I think Ireland can certainly play better, I think we can beat anyone and we have. But the fact that we are consistently excellent doesn't take away from the fact that other teams have their day too.

Even with a team on an upward curve, you can play top rugby and still lose in Twickenham against the world no.2 team.

irishbucsfan

People are completely forgetting what they're arguing about here, I see.

I agree that beating England is an unlikely occurrence. Would be a massive achievement. That is literally the entire point.

This started with someone saying that the Championship is what's important and a Grand Slam isn't something to be really bothered by.

At this stage a Championship win is to be expected. We are odds on for it. The big target now is the Grand Slam. And no, that absolutely does not mean I think it is very likely to happen.

awec

Irish Rugby is in the strongest position it's ever been in the history of the Six Nations. I don't mean within the context of the current tournament, I mean bigger picture. The team is quality from the top of the team sheet to the bottom, there are no weak links. We have more depth than ever before. We have a coaching setup that is familiar with success and who have shown themselves, by and large, to be tactically astute at test level.

It would, in my opinion, be a massive shame if Irish Rugby were to come through this period in it's history without a Grand Slam. Three championships in five years is certainly not to be sniffed at, but there will always be the feeling that something was left behind if we don't capture the ultimate achievement in the six nations.

It's certainly something to be bothered by IMO.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

People are completely forgetting what they're arguing about here, I see.

I agree that beating England is an unlikely occurrence. Would be a massive achievement. That is literally the entire point.

This started with someone saying that the Championship is what's important and a Grand Slam isn't something to be really bothered by.

At this stage a Championship win is to be expected. We are odds on for it. The big target now is the Grand Slam. And no, that absolutely does not mean I think it is very likely to happen.

Well that's pretty much exactly what I posted about earlier. I'd risk the championship at this stage for a shot at the slam, mostly because I think we've a very good shot at the Championship.

But there were posts that I was replying to suggesting that not winning a slam is a sign that we aren't able to step up further. I don't agree with that.

I think we can continue to improve and not necessarily win the slam. I wouldn't see it as a failure, just a disappointment.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

At what point is it ok for fans to want the team to step it up to the next level.

Or do you feel this team has plateaued and will never be anything more than 4 wins outfit?

Am I the only one who thinks this team should be capable of putting 5 wins in a row together?

You're doing it again. Nobody is saying what you think they are saying.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Well that's pretty much exactly what I posted about earlier. I'd risk the championship at this stage for a shot at the slam, mostly because I think we've a very good shot at the Championship.

But there were posts that I was replying to suggesting that not winning a slam is a sign that we aren't able to step up further. I don't agree with that.

I think we can continue to improve and not necessarily win the slam. I wouldn't see it as a failure, just a disappointment.

Well if we do go after the slam and we fail to achieve it, it is a failure and it is a sign that we weren't able to step up further. That's nothing to be afraid of, that's exactly where our targets should be set now.

kuang1

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well if we do go after the slam and we fail to achieve it, it is a failure and it is a sign that we weren't able to step up further. That's nothing to be afraid of, that's exactly where our targets should be set now.

I think you mean it would be a sign that we weren't able to step up "as far as we possibly could have stepped up to."
We may still have stepped up though.

Pedantry I know.

irishbucsfan

kuang1 wrote: »

I think you mean it would be a sign that weren't able to step up "as far as we possibly could have stepped up to."
We may still have stepped up though.

Pedantry I know.

Well I mean it in the context of us going there with the Championship, it's really the only step up we could possibly make at that stage. Only other step would be a step down for a loss or for a draw... a step, eh, across the, eh, aisle?

kuang1

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well I mean it in the context of us going there with the Championship, it's really the only step up we could possibly make at that stage. Only other step would be a step down for a loss or for a draw... a step, eh, across the, eh, aisle?

A 2 step?
A draw would be a step up from our recent adventures in Twickenham and we'd be slamless.

irishbucsfan

kuang1 wrote: »

A 2 step?
A draw would be a step up from our recent adventures in Twickenham and we'd be slamless.

A draw would be weird. Noone knew what to do with the Lions draw.

A whole championship without a loss is an achievement but it'd be a killer at the time to come so close.

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This started with someone saying that the Championship is what's important and a Grand Slam isn't something to be really bothered by.

Just to clarify, and I admit I phrased the initial post poorly, what I meant was that not winning the GS wouldn't bother me that much. That the title win would be a good achievement and, as per the bolded parts below, not winning the GS wouldn't take away from it for me. That's quite a bit away from not being bothered by the GS. Even if that is technically what I said.

molloyjh wrote: »

Just wondering if I'm the only one who isn't all that bothered about the GS? I mean it would be fantastic to win it and all, but I don't think it devalues the title if we don't. It's like the cherry on top of what is already a pretty tasty baked good. It makes it a bit nicer, but it's not the end of the world if it isn't there.

prawnsambo

Interesting stat: With two games to go, we're four tries short of our highest try count in the six nations.

prawnsambo

prawnsambo wrote: »

Interesting stat: With two games to go, we're four tries short of our highest try count in the six nations.

Yes but that stat is skewed by the performance against Italy, we never seem to be able to score tries against teams like Wales.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes but that stat is skewed by the performance against Italy, we never seem to be able to score tries against teams like Wales.

Somebody should tell Venjur that TRoL has hacked his account. :pac:

awec

prawnsambo wrote: »

Interesting stat: With two games to go, we're four tries short of our highest try count in the six nations.

Yea the five tries against Wales marks a huge improvement in this department. Long may it continue. We probably still left some tries behind us too.

prawnsambo

awec wrote: »

Yea the five tries against Wales marks a huge improvement in this department. Long may it continue. We probably still left some tries behind us too.

Yeah. Though I suppose you could say that about all the 6N campaigns up to now.

But we finished a lot of 6N with try counts in single figures. I think in 2013 we only scored five. Iirc, the GS year was 12 or 13.

mangobob

irishbucsfan wrote: »

People are completely forgetting what they're arguing about here, I see.

I agree that beating England is an unlikely occurrence. Would be a massive achievement. That is literally the entire point.

This is really the nub of the issue right here. The point is not whether it would be a massive achievement. OF course it would. No one is denying that at all. The point is about expectations.

Some posters are saying they would be disappointed by not winning the GS and it would be a failure, even if we win the trophy. Disappointment is a function of expectation, and by your own admission beating England in Twickenham is an unlikely occurrence. If something is unlikely, by definition you cannot expect it. Therefore I am not expecting a win, hence I wont regard a defeat there as a "failure". England were disappointed last year not just because they lost the Grandslam, but because they were absolutely expecting (and expected) to win it.

On the other hand, I am expecting us to beat Scotland at home, and if we do it well enough we will essentially be champions with 1 game left. At this point in time, we *should* win the trophy, and I certainly would be disappointed not to. THAT would be a failure in my view.

I also think there is a very subjective element to peoples attitudes. For those saying 4 out of 5 wins and a trophy would be disappointing, lets do a little thought experiment. Lets say we lost the first game, and then proceeded to win the last four, culminating with a hard fought win in Twickenham, maybe even a drop goal at the death to claim the trophy in the dying minutes. How many would feel disappointed with that? How many would feel that its a failure? Very few I would imagine, and yet its the same haul of 4 out of 5 wins and a Championship. Objectively both are equally successful accomplishments and should be regarded as such.

I think both sides on this debate are actually much more in agreement than it appears. I concur with almost everything Awec says about what this team are capable of, what their aspirations should be and I have zero doubt that Schmidt would love to have a GS to show for his time here. Our only points of difference are in our level of expectation and how we define success. I believe that we cant "expect" to beat England at Twickenham (although I believe we can win) and I believe winning the championship equals success. A GS would be a fantastic bonus, and I am certainly NOT saying I'm not bothered about. I would be ecstatic, as would everyone here. But having our name on the trophy come the 17th of March is enough for me to regard this season as a great success.

prawnsambo

mangobob wrote: »

This is really the nub of the issue right here. The point is not whether it would be a massive achievement. OF course it would. No one is denying that at all. The point is about expectations. <Snip>

That is a really excellent post. I think you've expressed what everybody (certainly I do) feels.

I snipped most of it since the original post should be read (and thanked many times) and not my quote of it.

.ak

Buer wrote: »

Remember the 2011 6N? England had the title in the bag coming to Dublin as they sought the Grand Slam and we comfortably beat them with Sexton and Reddan gelling really well? Do people remember how deflated the England team were and how the title seemed like the consolation prize?

That will be the situation if we beat Scotland and then lose. It's a very possible scenario but, from this position, the focus should really, really be on a Grand Slam.

Bit different, England came here as massive favourites, nobody expected an Irish win. Even if we win against Scotland I reckon England will still be favourites in London.

Interested Observer

prawnsambo wrote: »

Interesting stat: With two games to go, we're four tries short of our highest try count in the six nations.

Not that surprising considering how few tries we score against good teams. Scoring 5 tries on Wales could hardly have been expected.

Getting another 5 between the next two games is going to be difficult as well imo.

.ak wrote: »

Bit different, England came here as massive favourites, nobody expected an Irish win. Even if we win against Scotland I reckon England will still be favourites in London.

They were 3 or 4 point favourites.

irishbucsfan

mangobob wrote: »

For those saying 4 out of 5 wins and a trophy would be disappointing

Can someone please point to anyone who has said this?

Serious straw manning going on today.

People are getting very, very confused about the idea that you can have a successful campaign but finish it off with a failure.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

Bit different, England came here as massive favourites, nobody expected an Irish win. Even if we win against Scotland I reckon England will still be favourites in London.

If France show up at home to England and decide to front up physically it could be a brutal. Peyper is ref so it could be a complete free for all to be honest.

Still though, England would need to lose in France to drop the favourites tag for the final round and obviously we'd need to well beat Scotland.

irishbucsfan

Interested Observer wrote: »

Not that surprising considering how few tries we score against good teams. Scoring 5 tries on Wales could hardly have been expected.

Getting another 5 between the next two games is going to be difficult as well imo.

Yeah. Given we don't generally ever score more than one try against good teams it's fairly expected.

However, I really think we could get 5 tries in these games. We could end up hammering Scotland IMO (don't think they'll be the same team who faced England) and England seem to be playing a little looser this year.

Although we could just as easily squeak out an abrasive 0-try win against England and I wouldn't give a ****e!

prawnsambo

Interested Observer wrote: »

Not that surprising considering how few tries we score against good teams. Scoring 5 tries on Wales could hardly have been expected.

Well perhaps you'll be surprised to know that there haven't been many try counts above our best of 17. England got 29 and 23 in the very early noughties, but after that 18 was the best scored since then.

foxyladyxx

I am passionate about rugby and am passionate about my country. Only 5 wins will make me happy. I believe we can do it.

First up we deal with Scotland and we will win.