Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

Former Former

As posted on the Munster thread, Conway continues to get treatment on his knee and N Scannell got another rib injury.

The chances of SOB appearing at any point must be receding too.

On the plus side, I don't think we picked up any new injuries.

So I guess we're unlikely to see too many changes for the Scotland game, maybe Ringrose for the 23 jersey if he can put in a good shift against Scarlets this weekend.

bilston

Former Former wrote: »

As posted on the Munster thread, Conway continues to get treatment on his knee and N Scannell got another rib injury.

The chances of SOB appearing at any point must be receding too.

On the plus side, I don't think we picked up any new injuries.

So I guess we're unlikely to see too many changes for the Scotland game, maybe Ringrose for the 23 jersey if he can put in a good shift against Scarlets this weekend.

I'd expect Furlong and Henderson to return if they're fit.

Former Former

bilston wrote: »

I'd expect Furlong and Henderson to return if they're fit.

Yeah, that's a given, and the indications are good for both I think?

Not sure Toner made much of a case for himself against Wales really, he wasn't bad but for a guy fighting for his place, it probably wasn't enough to prevent a swift return to the bench.

Porter is never going to keep Furlong out but he definitely sealed the 18 jersey for the foreseeable future.

Webbs

Bridge93 wrote: »

I'd be really excited to win the championship. I'd be more excited to win the GS. We've come so close and been robbed of both a number of times through the noughties that a bit of payback is in order

3 championships and a GS in 10 years would be amazing.
2 championships and 2 GS was unthinkable 10 years ago

The championship would have been the least that Ireland would have aimed to win this year. At the start it really was only Ireland and England in with a shout especially how the fixtures panned out. Ireland have done their bit and unless England have some major turnaround then they are there for the taking in London.

If England get 5 in round 4 and we only get 4 I'll be wearing my brown pants for the last weekend.

Despite this, I wouldn't take the Championship, but only the Championship if you offered it to me now. I'd rather the shot at the Grand Slam. It's not to devalue the Championship nor is it because I want to keep it a surprise, but logically at this point I think the risks to our Championship hopes are quite low.

The above mentioned possibility is the only remotely possible outcome that would leave us in jeopardy. No part of me believes that Scotland will turn us over at home. I think it's more likely that we would get a bonus point win than any kind of loss. Similarly, England might win in Twickenham, but I fail to see them putting up such a score that they account for whatever the difference is likely to be between us after round 4.

I also think it's much more likely that Ireland will get a bonus point this weekend than England will.

The one concern I have is that Ireland have occasionally been at a point where they can wrap up a championship or a tour with a win but conspire to produce a loss out of nowhere. Leinster have done it plenty of times also, winning hard fought games as the bookies underdog but then losing almost bankers at the worst possible time.

If we can show mettle in two weeks and play somewhat near our best we'll put Scotland away with 15 or more points to spare. If we do that I'm confident we will have the title won or won beyond any rational doubt before the lads head over to London.

Sangre

I just can't see Scotland (with their away record) beating us (with our home record).

mangobob

awec wrote: »

We all got a thrill out of beating England last year and denying them one. To then say we aren’t that bothered about winning it ourselves seems a bit small time.

I dunno, to start writing off a GS already seems like we’re back to downplaying expectations again.

Picking up a championship after losing to England would be pretty bittersweet. Losing to Scotland and beating England would absolutely suck.

I think its not so much a case of writing off a Grand Slam and saying we are not bothered if we win it. I would LOVE us to win it. Its more that I would object to people writing off winning a Championship as if it were some kind of runner up prize. Its not. Its THE prize, one that we would have given our left arm for on so many occasions.

I would agree with those who say the Grandslam is the cherry on top. To regard winning another championship as something that would be disappointing without the GS is devaluing it massively, imho. Winning the latter against England on the final day would be absolutely fantastic. But if we don't, I will still be DELIGHTED with the trophy.

Having said that, I completely get the argument that this team should be aiming for the slam. That is correct. We definitely are good enough to do it and that's what we should aspire to. But setting aspirational standards is one thing, downgrading the trophy as a runner up prize is another thing altogether.

Yeah_Right

The expectation has to be winning title from the position Ireland are in. A Grand Slam, in Twickenham would be holy ****!!!! Not winning the GS but winning the title would be a bit of a let down as the last match is a loss. That's always disappointing. Like losing the last match in a three test series. That is not meant to devalue the title. A third title in 5 years would be amazing.

I remember people celebrating Triple Crowns!! DVDs were made about it. Basically celebrating coming second. The title is everything. A GS and a TC is a bonus.

I think the worst thing about not winning the GS would be that certain pundits would use it as a stick to beat JS with.

molloyjh

mangobob wrote: »

Its more that I would object to people writing off winning a Championship as if it were some kind of runner up prize. Its not.

Yeah, that's what I was failing to say earlier.

The Rape of Lucretia

The championship is everything. The GS, a detail about how comprehensive the championship was.
Offered the championship now, I would take it and run.

awec

mangobob wrote: »

I think its not so much a case of writing off a Grand Slam and saying we are not bothered if we win it. I would LOVE us to win it. Its more that I would object to people writing off winning a Championship as if it were some kind of runner up prize. Its not. Its THE prize, one that we would have given our left arm for on so many occasions.

I would agree with those who say the Grandslam is the cherry on top. To regard winning another championship as something that would be disappointing without the GS is devaluing it massively, imho. Winning the latter against England on the final day would be absolutely fantastic. But if we don't, I will still be DELIGHTED with the trophy.

Having said that, I completely get the argument that this team should be aiming for the slam. That is correct. We definitely are good enough to do it and that's what we should aspire to. But setting aspirational standards is one thing, downgrading the trophy as a runner up prize is another thing altogether.

A Grand Slam is THE prize. A 5 win championship outranks a 4 win championship by any measure. It is the greatest achievement available in the six nations. They even put rules in place to ensure it continues in this new bonus point era. This team is capable of winning a slam so I cannot agree with anyone who just decides they aren't bothered by it. Why on earth would you just settle for a championship when you can go one better?

If we win another championship and no slam it's certainly not a bad year but it'll be a bit disappointing. It's the one achievement Schmidt has yet to deliver that we can reasonably expect of him. The team is good enough, the coaches are good enough, let's get off our knees a bit and stop settling for "good enough" just because we used to be a bit rubbish and never won anything.

I'll still be delighted if we lose in Twickenham and come away with the championship, nobody is saying that is not worth talking about, I just take issue with people downplaying a GS already with two games to go and us as the only team unbeaten, as if they're already predicting an Ireland loss and want to play the expectations game.

The Rape of Lucretia

If we can win the title against Scotland, that will be terrific. The England game is indeed then a bit of a dead rubber for me - sure, nice to win, and you try to win it. But no worries if you slip up. It would still be the Schmidtster winning 3 titles out of 5. Outstanding.

awec

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

If we can win the title against Scotland, that will be terrific. The England game is indeed then a bit of a dead rubber for me - sure, nice to win, and you try to win it. But no worries if you slip up. It would still be the Schmidtster winning 3 titles out of 5. Outstanding.

At what point is it ok for fans to want the team to step it up to the next level.

Or do you feel this team has plateaued and will never be anything more than 4 wins outfit?

Am I the only one who thinks this team should be capable of putting 5 wins in a row together?

The Rape of Lucretia

awec wrote: »

A Grand Slam is THE prize. A 5 win championship outranks a 4 win championship by any measure

Sure it does. By definition. But only in the fine print. Like a GS with 4 bonus points outranks a GS with no bps.
But do we really care about that detail? Cherry on top is a good way to out it. To be the champion is the goal in sport. To be an all dominating champion is secondary. As long as you come out on top of the table, as better than the rest, how you did it, is by the way.

Buer

Remember the 2011 6N? England had the title in the bag coming to Dublin as they sought the Grand Slam and we comfortably beat them with Sexton and Reddan gelling really well? Do people remember how deflated the England team were and how the title seemed like the consolation prize?

That will be the situation if we beat Scotland and then lose. It's a very possible scenario but, from this position, the focus should really, really be on a Grand Slam.

awec

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Sure it does. By definition. But only in the fine print. Like a GS with 4 bonus points outranks a GS with no bps.
But do we really care about that detail? Cherry on top is a good way to out it. To be the champion is the goal in sport. To be an all dominating champion is secondary. As long as you come out on top of the table, as better than the rest, how you did it, is by the way.

Obviously we do.

awec

awec wrote: »

At what point is it ok for fans to want the team to step it up to the next level.

Or do you feel this team has plateaued and will never be anything more than 4 wins outfit?

Am I the only one who thinks this team should be capable of putting 5 wins in a row together?

At what point is it ok for fans to want the team to step it up to the next level???

We've had so many firsts under Schmidt and we're on the cusp of a third title in five years.

What part of that is NOT stepping up?

We've no right to a Grand Slam. They are very rare and England will likely be favourites for the last game.

It would be disappointing to lose the game, but there is no shame in it and certainly the coaches and team will have a lot more credit in the bank with another Championship win under their belts.

You would think we were picking up titles for fun in the years gone by. Spoiled by success a bit here lads.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

At what point is it ok for fans to want the team to step it up to the next level.

Or do you feel this team has plateaued and will never be anything more than 4 wins outfit?

Am I the only one who thinks this team should be capable of putting 5 wins in a row together?

Professor Moriarty

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

If we can win the title against Scotland, that will be terrific. The England game is indeed then a bit of a dead rubber for me - sure, nice to win, and you try to win it. But no worries if you slip up. It would still be the Schmidtster winning 3 titles out of 5. Outstanding.

Watching Ireland walking off the pitch having won the Championship but lost the match would be a great achievement for sure but a bit of an anti-climax. Beating Wales for the Grand Slam in 2009 was one of my top three sporting moments (as a fan). Our championship wins over the years, while very satisfying, didn't come close. Beating England in Twickenham for only our second Grand Slam in 70 years would be amazing.

Buer

Buer wrote: »

but, from this position, the focus should really, really be on a Grand Slam.

The focus right now should be a 5 point return from the Scotland game and going on the media sound bites that is exactly what they doing.

After that any kind of win against England would be utter glory.

awec

Buer wrote: »

Remember the 2011 6N? England had the title in the bag coming to Dublin as they sought the Grand Slam and we comfortably beat them with Sexton and Reddan gelling really well? Do people remember how deflated the England team were and how the title seemed like the consolation prize?

That will be the situation if we beat Scotland and then lose. It's a very possible scenario but, from this position, the focus should really, really be on a Grand Slam.

Last year too.

Eddie Jones was talking about his team achieving greatness in the build up to last years game and about how Ireland love spoiling parties.

There was certainly no "we're just happy to have the championship in the bag" stuff.

The Lost Sheep

awec wrote: »

A Grand Slam is THE prize. A 5 win championship outranks a 4 win championship by any measure. It is the greatest achievement available in the six nations. They even put rules in place to ensure it continues in this new bonus point era. This team is capable of winning a slam so I cannot agree with anyone who just decides they aren't bothered by it. Why on earth would you just settle for a championship when you can go one better?

If we win another championship and no slam it's certainly not a bad year but it'll be a bit disappointing. It's the one achievement Schmidt has yet to deliver that we can reasonably expect of him. The team is good enough, the coaches are good enough, let's get off our knees a bit and stop settling for "good enough" just because we used to be a bit rubbish and never won anything.

I'll still be delighted if we lose in Twickenham and come away with the championship, nobody is saying that is not worth talking about, I just take issue with people downplaying a GS already with two games to go and us as the only team unbeaten, as if they're already predicting an Ireland loss and want to play the expectations game.

A slam would be great but if we dont get it by losing to England in twickenham is it really a bad thing? Are people downplaying a GS?
Who isnt bothered by a slam? Its winning the title that matters not how the title is won.
It also isnt the one achievement Schmidt has yet to deliver we can reasonably expect of him. I think a proper world cup attempt and making semis is what we should be reasonably expecting of him and this side.

the perfect ten

Sangre wrote: »

I just can't see Scotland (with their away record) beating us (with our home record).

And one of these days Scotland might tear up their poor away record - just as they tore up their poor home record in recent years against England on Saturday!

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

The focus right now should be a 5 point return from the Scotland game and going on the media sound bites that is exactly what they doing.

After that any kind of win against England would be utter glory.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

At what point is it ok for fans to want the team to step it up to the next level???

We've had so many firsts under Schmidt and we're on the cusp of a third title in five years.

What part of that is NOT stepping up?

We've no right to a Grand Slam. They are very rare and England will likely be favourites for the last game.

It would be disappointing to lose the game, but there is no shame in it and certainly the coaches and team will have a lot more credit in the bank with another Championship win under their belts.

You would think we were picking up titles for fun in the years gone by. Spoiled by success a bit here lads.

We have stepped up from where we were.

But there is more to come, I don't think this Ireland team has reached it's potential yet. A Grand Slam would be the feather in Schmidt's cap for his Ireland tenure. A championship with this Ireland team is a great achievement but better riches are within reach.

I really don't care about years gone by. They are irrelevant.

dub_skav

I don't know, there would be something remarkably sweet about being able to pat the English fans on the head and congratulate them on a moral victory while we lift the trophy :pac:

thomond2006

Grand Slam or Joe Out

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Great point, thanks for that. Haven't won in Twickenham since 2010 but suggesting it won't happen this tournament is now intentionally lowering expectations.

thomond2006

thomond2006 wrote: »

Grand Slam or Joe Out

We haven't won the championship in 2 years, but if we win it this year, it will definitely be a step back.

awec

Deleted User wrote: »

We haven't won the championship in 2 years, but if we win it this year, it will definitely be a step back.

Said nobody ever.