Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

.ak

Johnny Farango wrote: »

Just so we're clear, I've been lurking on these boards for years and find you an informative and fair analyst. Your compliment was unfair as it intimates that Earls doesn't have a natural nose for the line, which I believe he does. Anyways, as I said, I respect your views and tend to agree with most of what you say. Onwards and upwards Ireland:)

Ah, fair enough, crossed wires. I don't think that at all about Earls. Just more about the work rate he puts in across the park as a winger.

Jack Kanoff

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/gbrennan/latest-world-rankings-confirms-england-as-the-biggest-losers-following-six-nations-defeat/

Latest world rankings

prawnsambo

Jack Kanoff wrote: »

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/gbrennan/latest-world-rankings-confirms-england-as-the-biggest-losers-following-six-nations-defeat/

Latest world rankings

I don't think they're actually published by World Rugby until tomorrow. But you can check them any time using this calculator. Which I suspect is where punditarena got them.

.ak

Jack Kanoff wrote: »

http://www.punditarena.com/rugby/gbrennan/latest-world-rankings-confirms-england-as-the-biggest-losers-following-six-nations-defeat/

Latest world rankings

Just give us the Web Ellis now, save us the flights to Japan.

irishbucsfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

It is really if you think about it. But then you were being a bit coy, so I am too. :pac:

I'm talking about the organisation of our attack at key moments. That's down to our half backs, particularly off the ball. Our rate of passing across the team isn't pathological to the problem I'm talking about, fixing the problem probably wouldn't necessarily see that needle pushed either way.

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

Personally I don't really see Henshaw as a good distributing centre so that's also one thing. He's a great passer, but his decision making as to when to pass the ball is poor.

Interestingly enough we saw Farrell pass quite a bit in the AIs. Ringrose is another 'newcomer' that appears to want to take the ball on rather than distribute also.

In short I do think our inability to get things wide when necessary is down to our midfield. I think outside of Payne we've had a hard time replacing probably the best midfield combo in international rugby, we keep unearthing worthy replacements but nobody has really settled into it in terms of link play.

Don't get me wrong, Henshaw is a warrior, a total rugby player, but as a playmaker he's lacking. I often find we don't hit the wider channels unless Sexton is involved twice in a move (i.e quick phase play hitting the 10 as first receive twice or a loop in the same phase).

We need someone in midfield that can appreciate playing heads up and is aware of their outside channels width.

Could be any of the 4 main options (Aki/Ringrose/Henshaw/Farrell) but it probably won't be discovered overnight, then again it might be someone like Scannell who's got a decent rugby IQ and is a great footballer.

If the ball was getting into the hands of our midfielders at the times when our attack lets us down, I'd agree with you. But it doesn't which is why I'd be more inclined to believe the problem lies at the feet of the men inside them.

prawnsambo

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm talking about the organisation of our attack at key moments. That's down to our half backs, particularly off the ball. Our rate of passing across the team isn't pathological to the problem I'm talking about, fixing the problem probably wouldn't necessarily see that needle pushed either way.

Well I thought you were talking about coaching. Which I suppose could still be true.

.ak

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If the ball was getting into the hands of our midfielders at the times when our attack lets us down, I'd agree with you. But it doesn't which is why I'd be more inclined to believe the problem lies at the feet of the men inside them.

That's also true but with guys like Sexton and Murray and their rugby IQ I'd imagine that's pre-determined, so there's a possibility we're just not comfortable playing those percentages out wide for whatever reason.

Although one thing that stands out in the game over the weekend for me was Aki's try. I was going mad he ran that. Thank feck he scored it, but I think we had a 3 on 1 outside and all he needed to do was pivot on the ball.

The Rape of Lucretia

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If the ball was getting into the hands of our midfielders at the times when our attack lets us down, I'd agree with you. But it doesn't which is why I'd be more inclined to believe the problem lies at the feet of the men inside them.

Would you really think the halves are getting it 'wrong' as such though. As if they keep making the wrong choice. That doesnt sound plausible to me in todays programmed plays for different areas of the pitch, time in the game, number of phases already played etc. Surely, they are implementing a pretty strict selection of calls, as prescribed by Joe. If it happened occassionally, then maybe your argument has a case. But if systematically repeated, then I dont think they would agree with you that there is any 'problem' as you describe it at all. So it is fruitless to look for it to be 'fixed'.

prawnsambo

.ak wrote: »

Although one thing that stands out in the game over the weekend for me was Aki's try. I was going mad he ran that. Thank feck he scored it, but I think we had a 3 on 1 outside and all he needed to do was pivot on the ball.

All he needed to do was run diagonally right and he was under the posts with only a single defender on the inside to beat. And the ref

irishbucsfan

.ak wrote: »

That's also true but with guys like Sexton and Murray and their rugby IQ I'd imagine that's pre-determined, so there's a possibility we're just not comfortable playing those percentages out wide for whatever reason.

Although one thing that stands out in the game over the weekend for me was Aki's try. I was going mad he ran that. Thank feck he scored it, but I think we had a 3 on 1 outside and all he needed to do was pivot on the ball.

I wouldn't presume at all that it's pre-determined. I would suggest there are multiple small flaws with how we structure our team, for example our backline's organisation being totally dependent on a guy who is also one of our most committed defensive players, that we need to develop ways to account for.

There was a time when Toner turned over the ball in the 2nd half and we went 4 or 5 phases before the backline were ready. By that time the space from the turnover was gone and the Welsh defensive line was totally comfortable. I think later in that same attack was actually where Kearney made the break and offload but elite teams are not going to give us 5 comfortable phases like that and they're not going to miss simple tackles in 3-on-3 situations like Scott Williams did. Shaun Edwards would have been furious with that possession but we should also look at it critically as well.

phog

pickarooney wrote: »

I'm almost positive I saw Stander passing yesterday.

stephen_n wrote: »

According to ESPN he passed twice, but not when he should have to put Earls away.

The same number of passes as our FB, which seems to be an acceptable rate of passing if we go by some posters.

.ak

phog wrote: »

The same number of passes as our FB, which seems to be an acceptable rate of passing if we go by some posters.

Oh really? Who?

prawnsambo

phog wrote: »

The same number of passes as our FB, which seems to be an acceptable rate of passing if we go by some posters.

Rate of passing surely implies another metric? Like how many times they got the ball.

.ak

prawnsambo wrote: »

Rate of passing surely implies another metric? Like how many times they got the ball.

20% (RK) vs 9% (CJS)

phog

prawnsambo wrote: »

Rate of passing surely implies another metric? Like how many times they got the ball.

.ak wrote: »

20% (RK) vs 9% (CJS)

So what's the magic rate that ye want?

If I meet the coaches I'll pass on your concerns.

prawnsambo

phog wrote: »

So what's the magic rate that ye want?

If I meet the coaches I'll pass on your concerns.

I'd quite like all the forwards to pass the ball a bit more. Average of two each against Wales. And that includes POM with six. So he's off the hook.

.ak

phog wrote: »

So what's the magic rate that ye want?

If I meet the coaches I'll pass on your concerns.

Just to be clear, I never said that rate was acceptable, nor did anyone else.

You're arguing with yourself, by proxy.

I was responding in the other thread to a poster who implied he didn't pass at all.

Nobody asked my opinion whether or not it was of a high enough percentage to his K/P/R ratio. Not that that percentage actually matters - the only stat that mattered is that yes, he did actually pass or offload, 3 times.

molloyjh

phog wrote: »

The same number of passes as our FB, which seems to be an acceptable rate of passing if we go by some posters.

And both wingers. Don’t forget both wingers. Because we wouldn’t want anyone to think people are singling our players unfairly.

Rugby123innow

Was Conor Kelly training with Ireland 1st on Thursday?

Bridge93

Rob Kearney managing to derail two threads at the same time. Fairplay to him, that takes some doing.
Silly me thinking this all might be behind us when warnings were given out in the autumn and pre-6N regarding the endless, cyclical stuff written on the subject.

The Rape of Lucretia

Bridge93 wrote: »

Rob Kearney managing to derail two threads at the same time. Fairplay to him, that takes some doing.
Silly me thinking this all might be behind us when warnings were given out in the autumn and pre-6N regarding the endless, cyclical stuff written on the subject.

Still has the feel of Laurel movie, or , a Hardy movie, when one of them branches out to make his own stuff. But you are left with the nagging feeling that something just isnt quite right when the other half of the familiar double act is missing....

leakyboots

CJ is in interesting territory on here - when Stander first started internationally the line on here was "he's not fit enough for international rugby for 80 mins" cos he was subbed a couple of times in his early caps... now it's "he doesn't pass enough"... even though he generally passes as much as any other member of the backrow.

Before VdF went off injured CJ had more passes than him and Leavy passed the same amount as him the other day (please don't misinterpret that as Leavy playing poor, he was superb, but at the same you expect your 7 to link a bit more traditionally than your 8).

Now the line is "he's a marked man and doesn't make the yardage he used to" when, generally game after game, he carries the most and makes the most yardage of any forward. Like, if you're to go by pure statistics Porter carried 9 times and only made 1 yard.

I don't think Porter carried poorly nor had a poor game, nor do I think CJ is in poor form at all, I think he's a machine who keeps going non stop for hard yards for 80 mins and beyond. If it was that easy to make constant yardage in the tight the whole pack would have similar stats. James Ryan seems to be another to be naturally able to get that extra yard or two, Chris Farrell did it all day in the backs.

I'm a big Conan fan, he was one of very few to show up when we stuffed Leinster last season at Xmas but the idea of him replacing CJ or POM is still a bit of the way off, he's got to earn his stripes yet.

On a completely different note, I can't believe Cian Healy only has 4 tries in 76 caps, just seems wrong!

Burkie1203

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/967882649535680512

Jack Kanoff

That was something I wasn't aware of... Gatland is a smart cookie alright

Try_harder

Imagine we could win the 6 Nations in our next match!

prawnsambo

leakyboots wrote: »

CJ is in interesting territory on here - when Stander first started internationally the line on here was "he's not fit enough for international rugby for 80 mins" cos he was subbed a couple of times in his early caps... now it's "he doesn't pass enough"... even though he generally passes as much as any other member of the backrow.

Before VdF went off injured CJ had more passes than him and Leavy passed the same amount as him the other day (please don't misinterpret that as Leavy playing poor, he was superb, but at the same you expect your 7 to link a bit more traditionally than your 8).

Now the line is "he's a marked man and doesn't make the yardage he used to" when, generally game after game, he carries the most and makes the most yardage of any forward. Like, if you're to go by pure statistics Porter carried 9 times and only made 1 yard.

I don't think Porter carried poorly nor had a poor game, nor do I think CJ is in poor form at all, I think he's a machine who keeps going non stop for hard yards for 80 mins and beyond. If it was that easy to make constant yardage in the tight the whole pack would have similar stats. James Ryan seems to be another to be naturally able to get that extra yard or two, Chris Farrell did it all day in the backs.

I'm a big Conan fan, he was one of very few to show up when we stuffed Leinster last season at Xmas but the idea of him replacing CJ or POM is still a bit of the way off, he's got to earn his stripes yet.

On a completely different note, I can't believe Cian Healy only has 4 tries in 76 caps, just seems wrong!

I'm not sure CJ is being singled out here. Generally I think our forwards should be passing more. POM had the most on Saturday with six, so that left ten passes between the other seven. The reason I brought it up at all, is that I noticed POM passing just before contact a couple of times and we got good yards from it.

Buer

leakyboots wrote: »

CJ is in interesting territory on here - when Stander first started internationally the line on here was "he's not fit enough for international rugby for 80 mins" cos he was subbed a couple of times in his early caps..

He wasn't fit enough. He wasn't fit enough for HEC rugby for Munster initially either and was omitted from the HEC squad in his first season whilst he improved. Even in his second season, he was almost exclusively a bench player in Europe before making huge strides the next year.

In terms of fitness, he is unrecognisable as a player from the guy who arrived in Ireland.

molloyjh

Just wondering if I'm the only one who isn't all that bothered about the GS? I mean it would be fantastic to win it and all, but I don't think it devalues the title if we don't. It's like the cherry on top of what is already a pretty tasty baked good. It makes it a bit nicer, but it's not the end of the world if it isn't there.

Stheno

molloyjh wrote: »

Just wondering if I'm the only one who isn't all that bothered about the GS? I mean it would be fantastic to win it and all, but I don't think it devalues the title if we don't. It's like the cherry on top of what is already a pretty tasty baked good. It makes it a bit nicer, but it's not the end of the world if it isn't there.

I'm the same tbh