Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

Steve

Continuing on from the previous thread....

Peregrine

Erik Shin

Looks like someone's taken his last rolo

Peregrine

Peregrine wrote: »

Same hair and all. Just sayin.

Peregrine

Deleted User wrote: »

Same hair and all. Just sayin.

No, Superman got that haircut to look more like James Ryan.

swiwi_

The non-Lions June internationals look quite intriguing, not least France vs SA. Georgia also get a shot against Argentina. But I'm looking forward to Ireland's tour to the land of the rising sun. I think this could be quite close actually: a full-strength Japan against an Irish side stripped of its world class props, it's most dynamic ball-runners, and it's 9/10/12 axis. The Japanese have quite skilful backs, and I'm sure will look to exploit Ireland's perceived weakness out wide. Given the location and the pool make-up of RWC 2019, this tour is a Godsend for Schmidt - hopefully he is a little more ambitious than usual in his selections, the likes of the ageing Trimble & Bowe etc should be nowhere near this squad. Experience is important, vital even, but only if the player has a realistic chance of still featuring for Ireland in the next couple of seasons.

Buer

I would imagine the Japan games will be far bigger tests than people are thinking. I wouldn't be 100% certain we'd win both with a largely weakened team although we should. Because of this, I reckon we'll have a decent enough team on the field, especially for the first test. For context, full strength Scottish sides won two close games last summer over there, Japan beat Georgia in Tblisi in the autumn and were a score away from beating Wales in Cardiff.

They're in the mix for being the best second tier nation playing at the moment and, with their involvement in Super Rugby, they'll be undisputedly the best soon, I feel.

I'd like to think we'll beat them with room to spare in both games but I reckon they'll push us close enough in at least one of them. I would hope we see 5 new caps on the tour as well as significant game time for guys like Marmion, Leavy, Niall Scannell and John Ryan.

molloyjh

So Rob Kearney is apparently in the running to tour. I might have to take a break from here if that happens.

On the flip side it's looking more and more likely that Ryan might tour and Porter is in with a shout too. Both would be a surprise inclusion but far from a conservative one.

Sanjuro

Treadwell also likely to travel. Good news considering how thin the second row is.

Niallof9

If McFadden or Rob Kearney tour i will despair.

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

So Rob Kearney is apparently in the running to tour. I might have to take a break from here if that happens.

On the flip side it's looking more and more likely that Ryan might tour and Porter is in with a shout too. Both would be a surprise inclusion but far from a conservative one.

I hadn't thought of Porter until Neil mentioned him on here yesterday but, if they see him as someone that has the potential to be at that level, he won't get a much better chance to integrate than this tour.

I think it could be premature so not sure he'll go. We still have Furlong, Ryan and Bealham as well as Herbst coming down the tracks shortly. If they see Porter as having that level of potential though, he won't get a better opportunity than Japan to get some exposure at tighthead.

Rob Kearney has no business going. We have other experienced guys in the back three to bring along others. If he goes, it means a younger option who could potentially be an option in the next two years isn't going.

scrights

Kearney should be nowhere near the team.. give him and heaslip the summer off to recuperate FFS.

irishbucsfan

Imagine the something heads exploding right now that Ryan and Porter travel ahead of the $(person who has actually started a game of professional rugby) like Peter Stringer.

I'm actually snortling on my warm drink of choice. Just wait for the pages and pages of experience and systems topped with a dash of Rob Kearney topped off with Schmidders.

It makes the provinces non-awarding of contracts even more laughable and forward-looking.

Sweet breakfasts chaps.

Niallof9

Schmidt blots his copy book with a Kearney, Trimble + McFadden selection. We must start looking at back three options for 2019. Anything else is touching on Kidneysque levels of denial and conservatism.

A Ryan or Porter selection will mean nothing if we have the usual guys on the wing. Rob Kearney will be 34, Trimble will be 35, and McFadden 33 by Japan. Perfect opportunity on this tour to have a few new backs in the mix while having experience as well. Yes bring Kearney (or Trimble), Byrne and Stockdale for the mix but if the former en masse go nobody can rightly defend that decision here, not if you actually have the interest of Irish rugby at heart.

Niallof9

Niallof9 wrote: »

If McFadden or Rob Kearney tour i will despair.

So much experience though.

Would tend to agree anyway. If there was ever a chance to start someone who isn't Rob Kearney at 15 it's now.

molloyjh

Tbh I think people losing their s**t over individual selections are a bit daft. You've got to look at the overall squad. If Kearney and Heaslip travel, but do so along with a bunch of younger lads in tow then it's probably not such a big deal. If they travel at the expense of some of those young lads then that's a different matter. I just hope people are managing their expectations to a reasonable level here. And by a reasonable level I don't mean expecting the worst or using that sentiment as another way to have a go. There will need to be an element of balance to the squad which will also need to factor in a few guys potentially getting called up to the Lions as well. As long as that balance is broadly right then there should be little to argue over.

whatawaster

You would wonder why Leinster didn't give Ryan a game against Glasgow or Ulster instead of asking Munster to give him game time.

molloyjh

whatawaster wrote: »

You would wonder why Leinster didn't give Ryan a game against Glasgow or Ulster instead of asking Munster to give him game time.

Because those were genuinely competitive games at a level Ryan has never played before. The "Munster game" was an development nothing game. The result of which didn't matter a damn to anyone.

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Because those were genuinely competitive games at a level Ryan has never played before. The "Munster game" was an development nothing game. The result of which didn't matter a damn to anyone.

Is it not a bit odd in that case that someone needs gametime to go on tour with Ireland but can't get it at the Pro 12 because they're not good enough?

molloyjh

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Is it not a bit odd in that case that someone needs gametime to go on tour with Ireland but can't get it at the Pro 12 because they're not good enough?

Yes. Which is why so many of us have a hard time believing Ryan will actually be selected.

I'd imagine the reason the squad announcement hasn't been properly scheduled is so that a few lads can prove their fitness for the trip, like Heaslip and Kearney. Ryan may fall into that bracket too. May not have been fit enough to be involved with Leinster the last few weeks, but may be fit enough to play for Ireland in a few weeks time. Maybe he'll tour without actually playing. Who knows at this stage.

Sanjuro

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Is it not a bit odd in that case that someone needs gametime to go on tour with Ireland but can't get it at the Pro 12 because they're not good enough?

Isn't he literally just back from long-term injury?

Buer

I suppose it would stink a little bit in terms of Schmidt instructing a province to start someone who has never played before and in an interpro too. Then there's the fact that someone like Molony may have missed out. Leinster would have wanted to give their big players a run out to keep them ticking over ahead of a two week lay off also, I imagine.

Scmidt would have far more autonomy in relation to a development game away from scrutiny.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

I suppose it would stink a little bit in terms of Schmidt instructing a province to start someone who has never played before and in an interpro too. Then there's the fact that someone like Molony may have missed out. Leinster would have wanted to give their big players a run out to keep them ticking over ahead of a two week lay off also, I imagine.

Scmidt would have far more autonomy in relation to a development game away from scrutiny.

Well yes, there is also that too.

irishbucsfan

Sanjuro wrote: »

Isn't he literally just back from long-term injury?

Yes. And I'd imagine that is much more likely the reason he wasn't involved. It takes a long time to get those bigger guys back to game speed.

conf101

Could Kearney possibly tour as captain? Best is with the Lions and Heaslip might not be fit. That would explain selecting Kearney.

phog

I seldom listen to OTB anymore but caught the tail end of it last night, I think it was Gavin Cummiskey making a case for Rob to go on tour with Ireland.

I can't see any value in bringing Rob on tour other than maybe keeping him match fit for a Lions call up for injury cover but even then is he going to be next in line?

irishbucsfan

I'd imagine Kearney would be brought for his leadership as much as anything else, as well as being a Lions candidate. The guy is half fit though and clearly struggling to stay fit, I'd hope he won't start every game if brought and I'd prefer we bring others instead.

Podge_irl

phog wrote: »

I seldom listen to OTB anymore but caught the tail end of it last night, I think it was Gavin Cummiskey making a case for Rob to go on tour with Ireland.

I can't see any value in bringing Rob on tour other than maybe keeping him match fit for a Lions call up for injury cover but even then is he going to be next in line?

I think this may be relevant for a couple players and I would expect the IRFU/Schmidt to countenance requests by senior players to play.

I don't really expect anyone to be rested to be honest - missing 11 players is a big chunk as it is.

Former Former

Rob Kearney isn't even back training for Leinster yet, two weeks before the squad departs. I can't see it happening.

But if he does get fit, he'll be picked. And why not, frankly.

Former Coach

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think this may be relevant for a couple players and I would expect the IRFU/Schmidt to countenance requests by senior players to play.

I don't really expect anyone to be rested to be honest - missing 11 players is a big chunk as it is.

I agree Podge. I don't think Joe will be underestimating either of these teams given that he will have a number of very inexperienced guys on board. Japan have proven to be a match for the best and I can't really see USA rolling over!

Buer

conf101 wrote: »

Could Kearney possibly tour as captain? Best is with the Lions and Heaslip might not be fit. That would explain selecting Kearney.

That would be a legitimate reason. I could get on board with that given the absence of many senior options if Heaslip is out.

molloyjh

Former Coach wrote: »

I agree Podge. I don't think Joe will be underestimating either of these teams given that he will have a number of very inexperienced guys on board. Japan have proven to be a match for the best and I can't really see USA rolling over!

Just for the record, I'm reading this post and all future posts of yours in Eddie O'Sullivans voice.

whatawaster

We desperately need to develop better players at 11, 14 and 15. The fact that we have no lions in those positions is telling. We are extremely lacking there compared to most other tier one nations.

It would therefore be a completely wasted opportunity if some combination of Kearney, Trimble, Earls and Zebo makes up our back 3 in the Japan tests. I would not bring Kearney and Trimble at all.

There is plenty of experience and leadership elsewhere in Healy, Cronin, Toner, Ruddock, Jackson

wp_rathead

Former Former wrote: »

Rob Kearney isn't even back training for Leinster yet, two weeks before the squad departs. I can't see it happening.

But if he does get fit, he'll be picked. And why not, frankly.

Because with Zebo, Conway and TOH (and Carbery) he wouldn't be needed

Donnacha Ryan, TOD, Trimble, McFadden and Rob Kearney are the established, available players I don't see the need to bring

irishbucsfan

Kearney is part of the leadership group, head of the players' union, a Lions candidate. If he's fit, he's travelling. No question about that whatsoever.

But I do question whether or not he's fit. Seems to be injured a lot these days.

phog

Former Former wrote: »

Rob Kearney isn't even back training for Leinster yet, two weeks before the squad departs. I can't see it happening.

But if he does get fit, he'll be picked. And why not, frankly.

Why is he needed? It's a chance to see other players play at fullback. When do we try out new players if not on a summer tour v low grade teams.

Kearney will travel for the same reasons that POC travelled a few years ago

scrights

Surely Billy Holland won't travel given his limited potential/age and young options that have emerged.

irishbucsfan

phog wrote: »

Why is he needed? It's a chance to see other players play at fullback. When do we try out new players if not on a summer tour v low grade teams.

Well , when do we give young up and coming players the chance to learn from the leaders in the Irish group if not on summer tours. The players would probably learn more from training with these guys than they would from games against the USA. The coaches as well, they're probably looking to see how they do off the pitch more than on it.

Then you also have to think about when any of these young guys will actually be needed at senior level. It's silly to just throw a bunch of uncapped guys together for the sake of it. They'll be coming in and playing alongside these senior guys if they're needed. So for example if Stockdale is going to play on the wing for Ireland, it'll help if he is used to the back 3 he's playing beside, and playing outside Ringrose. Or if Porter is needed to bench at tighthead it'll help if he's used to scrummaging with Cronin/Scannell. Or whatever other combination.

Also I think in reality we have our depth at fullback sorted from Zebo/Payne. It's really the wing where we need players to come through, specifically the right wing, so I'm really keen for Byrne/Stockdale/Sweetnam to travel as they're genuinely likely to be contenders for starting places straight away.

swiwi_

I assume the Irish team is being named at 12 noon, the day of departure...?

(provided that all other countries have already named their squads for June)

Former Former

phog wrote: »

Why is he needed? It's a chance to see other players play at fullback. When do we try out new players if not on a summer tour v low grade teams.

I absolutely agree we should try out new players.

This is the drum I've been beating for weeks now. We have a group of established players who will go. We have a group of new players who I believe should go.

And we have a group of players who are neither new nor established who I believe should not go. Picking Kearney, or Trimble, or Earls, or all three, does not mean Stockdale and Byrne have to lose out.

phog

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well , when do we give young up and coming players the chance to learn from the leaders in the Irish group if not on summer tours. The players would probably learn more from training with these guys than they would from games against the USA. The coaches as well, they're probably looking to see how they do off the pitch more than on it.

Then you also have to think about when any of these young guys will actually be needed at senior level. It's silly to just throw a bunch of uncapped guys together for the sake of it. They'll be coming in and playing alongside these senior guys if they're needed. So for example if Stockdale is going to play on the wing for Ireland, it'll help if he is used to the back 3 he's playing beside, and playing outside Ringrose. Or if Porter is needed to bench at tighthead it'll help if he's used to scrummaging with Cronin/Scannell. Or whatever other combination.

Also I think in reality we have our depth at fullback sorted from Zebo/Payne. It's really the wing where we need players to come through, specifically the right wing, so I'm really keen for Byrne/Stockdale/Sweetnam to travel as they're genuinely likely to be contenders for starting places straight away.

Former Former wrote: »

I absolutely agree we should try out new players.

This is the drum I've been beating for weeks now. We have a group of established players who will go. We have a group of new players who I believe should go.

And we have a group of players who are neither new nor established who I believe should not go. Picking Kearney, or Trimble, or Earls, or all three, does not mean Stockdale and Byrne have to lose out.

Fine bring him to be there on the training paddock but not to play the games bar injury crisis.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Because those were genuinely competitive games at a level Ryan has never played before. The "Munster game" was an development nothing game. The result of which didn't matter a damn to anyone.

The result of the Glasgow or Ulster game didn't matter either, Leinster had secured a home SF before them both

Buer

I think people are going to be disappointed in relation to the back three progress made in the short term. We have a good few options in that area. I don't think the coaches are going to view it as an area in desperate need of attention. Payne, Zebo, Kearney and Earls will occupy those spots comfortably. Then there are a number of guys who are capped and the coaches would be comfortable with having on the bench in the 6N as we've seen already.

I think we might see one young player become a real option over the next year, starting this summer. Another may tour this summer also but I don't believe the coaching team see the need there as much as most punters do and there are going to be some disappointed fans.

They'll have a much stronger eye on lock, No. 8, outhalf and inside centre I reckon. Those are the areas that, if we suffer a single injury, we're going to be in difficulty in terms of depth.

the baby bull elephant

The IRFU make a decent wedge for every Lion. I can't imagine them allowing any player who has been told they might be injury cover to be left behind as that would decrease chances of a call up.

Niallof9

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Kearney is part of the leadership group, head of the players' union, a Lions candidate. If he's fit, he's travelling. No question about that whatsoever.

But I do question whether or not he's fit. Seems to be injured a lot these days.

You forgot central contract (above half a mill) ,face of marketing too (aer lingus)

He has no recent form, has been injured, will be the wrong age in 2019, and has no chance of lions call up. Fine if he goes, but if Kearney, Trimble, Earls, McFadden go...we have a massive problem.

wp_rathead

Healy, Cronin, Toner, Ruddock, Heaslip, Jackson, Zebo, Earls - there's enough "established" players traveling
Then lads like Kilcoyne, Marmion, JvdF, Marshall, TOH, Roux who been around the squad for a while and travelled to SA last year

irishbucsfan

wp_rathead wrote: »

Healy, Cronin, Toner, Ruddock, Heaslip, Jackson, Zebo, Earls - there's enough "established" players traveling
Then lads like Kilcoyne, Marmion, JvdF, Marshall, TOH, Roux who been around the squad for a while and travelled to SA last year

Is Heaslip travelling? If not, then the only other leader there is Ruddock really.

The only real question is whether or not Kearney is fit. If he is, he's going.

RichieRich89

Could Trimble not still be around for the next World Cup? He'll turn 35 in October 2019. That would be quite old for a wing, but he isn't showing any obvious signs that age is catching up with him yet - unlike Kearney.

With the quality Payne brings to the 15 shirt, and Zebo and O'Halloran also playing well at fullback over the last few seasons, I think phasing out RK is probably the best thing to do. I wouldn't take him on tour

Former Former

wp_rathead wrote: »

Then lads like XXXXX who been around the squad for a while and travelled to SA last year

I don't want to make this about specific players, but if guys have been around the squad for a while and can't get traction, then it's time to move on from them.

Neil3030

Kearney really made strides in his ground-based attacking game this season under Leocaster, I think if he returns to fitness he could offer our most balanced full-back option for another few seasons.