Male teachers - Mod Note Post #221

Glenster

silverharp wrote: »

that used to be a top profession to go into, it seems to have lost a lot of its luster. I know a few at Financial controller level but they aren't on great money for the time and effort they put into it at the start.

I think its the same with anything in the private sector, you get out what you put into it.

The problem a lot of people have with the teaching profession is that once you're in you can be a great teacher or a terrible teacher and it just doesn't matter. Same pay, same conditions, same security of tenure.

One eyed Jack

Jobs OXO wrote: »

I wasn't the one who started comparing teachers to accountants. Take out your anger on that poster instead.

What anger? I don't get angry with people whom I know have no idea what they're talking about.

Jobs OXO wrote: »

Oh it's fairly easy to observe teachers when you pick up and drop off every day. Their salaries are public knowledge so I don't need my kids to work it out.

Classic example of said lack of knowledge above when you form an opinion on the basis of spending a total of perhaps a whole ten minutes on the school grounds.

Jobs OXO

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What anger? I don't get angry with people whom I know have no idea what they're talking about.





Classic example if said lack of knowledge above when you form an opinion on the basis of spending a total of perhaps a whole ten minutes on the school grounds.

Oh it's a lot more than that.

evolving_doors

Jobs OXO wrote: »

Oh it's a lot more than that.

11 minutes maybe!! Extrapolate that out and you've practically done a PhD in Education by the time your kids are finished primary :pac:

Glenster

Gebgbegb wrote: »

After qualification and 3-4 years experience what's the bracket for teaching?

'Qualification' for teachers is different to qualification for accountants though. Qualification for teachers is 'complete a specific degree'. That girl I mentioned in my previous post was at the educational level of a qualified teacher before she even started her accountancy qualification.

So lets not go nuts here.

Do many qualified experienced accountants go on to do sub work or pro rata in the big 4?

Some do. Only if they want to, its not standard.

Of the ten that qualified with me, two are doing short term contract work. And one of the girls works three days a week because she's starting her own business on the side.

Benicetomonty

Qualification for secondary teachers is a 3 or 4 year undergrad, followed by a 2 year masters in education. My brother is an accountant and the difference in time it takes to 'qualify' for either profession is negligible.

Jobs OXO

Gebgbegb wrote: »

11 minutes maybe!! Extrapolate that out and you've practically done a PhD in Education by the time your kids are finished primary :pac:

Nope try again

evolving_doors

Glenster wrote: »

'Qualification' for teachers is different to qualification for accountants though. ...

You're dead right ...

Glenster wrote: »

....Qualification for teachers is 'complete a specific degree'. That girl I mentioned in my previous post was at the educational level of a qualified teacher before she even started her accountancy qualification.

I'll just refute that by saying...

Glenster wrote: »

'Qualification' for teachers is different to qualification for accountants though. ...

Glenster wrote: »

So lets not go nuts here.

Some do. Only if they want to, its not standard.

Of the ten that qualified with me, two are doing short term contract work. And one of the girls works three days a week because she's starting her own business on the side.

What's the pay like?

Kimbot

MOD NOTE: This isn't about teachers wages and what people think they earn, so please quit it now or infractions will follow. So back on topic we go

silverharp

volchitsa wrote: »

Well if there's any evidence for that, let's have it?

(I'm not entirely sure what you're saying though - that the girls applying have higher points and therefore boys get rejected? Or that so many girls apply that the boys are a drop in the ocean? Because again, any effective response to those issues would have to be tailored to what exactly the cause is. Hence my request for evidence.)

well I don't know how many boys applied but didn't get a place or just deem the points too high for teaching and pick an alternate which looks like there is more bang per point. the LC is a points race which gives girls a natural advantage to girls as in the Irish system there are 3 language based must do subjects and only 1 maths one. its clear that girls have a natural advantage in language based subjects and boys tend to do better in math based ones.
So I guess the question is, are points the best way to ferret out the best potential teachers? or should they do as they did in Medicine and balance points with the HPAT to have a better gender balance and not just go with who can memorise the most.

evolving_doors

silverharp wrote: »

well I don't know how many boys applied but didn't get a place or just deem the points too high for teaching and pick an alternate which looks like there is more bang per point. the LC is a points race which gives girls a natural advantage to girls as in the Irish system there are 3 language based must do subjects and only 1 maths one. its clear that girls have a natural advantage in language based subjects and boys tend to do better in math based ones.
So I guess the question is, are points the best way to ferret out the best potential teachers? or should they do as they did in Medicine and balance points with the HPAT to have a better gender balance and not just go with who can memorise the most.

I think it just goes down application numbers. There are just not enough males applying.
If it were an equal amount (or greater) of males applying but not getting in then I reckon that would have been questioned... the only assumption therefore would have been they were refused entry on gender grounds.. which I don't think happens.

I'd like to see the stats on career progression though... do males outweigh females when it comes to getting a principal's job?

Just going by this figure it would be safe to assume a median of 70% teachers are female
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/the-gender-gap-in-education-at-its-widest-for-50-years-1.1771782?mode=amp


But... strangely enough

If there's a shortage of men in primary classrooms, there's an imbalance in the opposite direction when it comes to promotion. Just over 50pc of primary school principals are female. While men may be in a minority in the classroom, they are not disadvantaged when it comes to promotion

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/going-to-college/why-we-need-more-male-teachers-and-more-female-principals-35083784.html


Sooo gender quotas for entry...
And here's the sticky point... if we are to follow the same rationale.
Gender quotas for promoting...

volchitsa

silverharp wrote: »

well I don't know how many boys applied but didn't get a place or just deem the points too high for teaching and pick an alternate which looks like there is more bang per point. the LC is a points race which gives girls a natural advantage to girls as in the Irish system there are 3 language based must do subjects and only 1 maths one. its clear that girls have a natural advantage in language based subjects and boys tend to do better in math based ones.
So I guess the question is, are points the best way to ferret out the best potential teachers? or should they do as they did in Medicine and balance points with the HPAT to have a better gender balance and not just go with who can memorise the most.

Well this is the thing with having zero evidence for what you post - your point about the LC is an interesting one. Let's say it's true that girls have an advantage in points terms : that still doesn't tell us why boys with enough points still don't go for teaching. Maybe they don't pick teaching because they can go for a better paid, higher status job instead?

In which case just encouraging them to give it a go won't help, if that's not the problem.

Also, coming from NI I did A levels which are entirely differently organized - and yet we have the same gender imbalance so I'm not sure your reasoning is correct anyway.

As I said, for well paid high status careers from which one gender was traditionally either barred or strongly discouraged from entering, it makes sense to try encouragement to "give it a go". There's a lot of evidence that this is not why boys don't go into teaching - so there's no reason to assume the same solution might work.

(Your point about LC being too language based is a separate issue, and worth looking at - couldn't they just use coefficients to increase the importance of maths or science if necessary?)

silverharp

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think it just goes down application numbers. There are just not enough males applying.
If it were an equal amount (or greater) of males applying but not getting in then I reckon that would have been questioned... the only assumption therefore would have been they were refused entry on gender grounds.. which I don't think happens.

I'd like to see the stats on career progression though... do males outweigh females when it comes to getting a principal's job?

Just going by this figure it would be safe to assume a median of 70% teachers are female
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/the-gender-gap-in-education-at-its-widest-for-50-years-1.1771782?mode=amp


But... strangely enough


http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/education/going-to-college/why-we-need-more-male-teachers-and-more-female-principals-35083784.html


Sooo gender quotas for entry...
And here's the sticky point... if we are to follow the same rationale.
Gender quotas for promoting...

generally I look at this from the customer point of view. I don't care what the gender mix of principals are, I'd hope the proven best gets the job, after all they will have been teaching for 20 odd years so their personal skill and energy should be obvious.
Looking at class facing teachers , the argument is would more male teachers be a benefit to boys in particular or even girls. It wouldn't be a plus if every teacher a boy had was female and there could be some downsides, I'm sure one could fill Boards with anecdotes of female teachers not quite getting boys and punishing them because they don't behave like girls. I could even give a few personal examples from my own kids where Im thinking in my head a male teacher wouldn't do that.

evolving_doors

silverharp wrote: »

generally I look at this from the customer point of view. I don't care what the gender mix of principals are, I'd hope the proven best gets the job, after all they will have been teaching for 20 odd years so their personal skill and energy should be obvious.
Looking at class facing teachers , the argument is would more male teachers be a benefit to boys in particular or even girls. It wouldn't be a plus if every teacher a boy had was female and there could be some downsides, I'm sure one could fill Boards with anecdotes of female teachers not quite getting boys and punishing them because they don't behave like girls. I could even give a few personal examples from my own kids where Im thinking in my head a male teacher wouldn't do that.

I think you're missing the point.
Approx 70% of primary teachers are female... but only 50% get principal.

Maybe it is about the money motivation for males!

silverharp

volchitsa wrote: »

Well this is the thing with having zero evidence for what you post - your point about the LC is an interesting one. Let's say it's true that girls have an advantage in points terms : that still doesn't tell us why boys with enough points still don't go for teaching. Maybe they don't pick teaching because they can go for a better paid, higher status job instead?

In which case just encouraging them to give it a go won't help, if that's not the problem.

Also, coming from NI I did A levels which are entirely differently organized - and yet we have the same gender imbalance so I'm not sure your reasoning is correct anyway.

As I said, for well paid high status careers from which one gender was traditionally either barred or strongly discouraged from entering, it makes sense to try encouragement to "give it a go". There's a lot of evidence that this is not why boys don't go into teaching - so there's no reason to assume the same solution might work.

(Your point about LC being too language based is a separate issue, and worth looking at - couldn't they just use coefficients to increase the importance of maths or science if necessary?)

I do agree that the biggest reason is boys are just seeing better alternatives for their points and girls crowding the profession, but not all points are created equal :pac: . I think the Maths requirement is shockingly low to become a teacher by the way, a D in pass Maths? that means someone who has no love of maths can become a teacher because they compensate in the other subjects.
then you just have a reinforcing circle to the point that teaching will be viewed by kids as something like nursing and we will be the old fogies that remember having a decent mix of male and female teachers.


https://gradireland.com/careers-advice/job-descriptions/teacher-primary-level

For Leaving Certificate these requirements are a grade C in Higher Level Irish and at least a grade D in Mathematics (Higher or Ordinary level) and at least a grade C (Ordinary Level) or grade D (Higher Level) in English.

silverharp

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think you're missing the point.
Approx 70% of primary teachers are female... but only 50% get principal.

Maybe it is about the money motivation for males!

do you mean to become principals? if so yes . In a lot of households the man is the main earner and are just more competitive whereas more of the female teachers are happy with teaching and have no interest in getting into management. Its similar to the legal profession. more men will make partner because it attracts very focused males who will sacrifice everything to get the most billable hours, more women will go for more balance in their lives which still leaves them in a good spot too. The feminists will turn it into "the glass ceiling" when its nothing of the sort.

nice_guy80

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

nice_guy80 wrote: »

What was missing from the curriculum that put you off doing teaching?
Lack of testing on animals? I don't get why you wouldn't go into teaching

Most full timw teachers are paid ok
It's those recruited in the last 6/7 years with a huge gap in pay or a lack of fill time hours

Anyway, still the biggest barrier to males doing teaching, is that it Is now seen as a female dominated job with an increasing paperwork load. That swerves a lot of young lads straight away

There are far more positives than negatives in the job and I'm always trying to convince young lads to go for teacher training

Nothing more satisfying meeting someone who did their leaving cert or first year in college and them telling you all about how well they are doing and you remember them being a quiet and shy pupil in 3rd or 4th class

It wasn;t that something was missing, it was that I felt there was too much restriction. I would have been a very liberal teacher - for one thing, I would have liked to use contemporay novels and movies instead of prescribed literature, as this would have been more relevant to
the kids and more interesting for them. And that, I felt, would have made it far easier from them to express themselves.
I had a discussion once with a friend's 12-year old son was about whether or not we should blindly follow leaders or question authority. In order to make a point, I showed him "V for Vandetta". If I did that in a classroom (at least back in the 90s when I was reserching teaching) I'm pretty sure questions would have been asked.

I'd also like to have taken them out of the classroom a lot more, but I'm open to the fact that that might not have been possible anyway, due to other factors such as insurance.

I think you placed a few very silly barriers to teaching that don't really exist

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I think you placed a few very silly barriers to teaching that don't really exist

Maybe so - this was a while back. Although at the time, a couple of friends and a former-teacher of mine advised me that this would have been a problem in the classroom.

nice_guy80

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I think you placed a few very silly barriers to teaching that don't really exist

Maybe so - this was a while back. Although at the time, a couple of friends and a former-teacher of mine advised me that this would have been a problem in the classroom.

We're those people from the 1950s?
Seriously
I've never seen or heard of progress in teaching being frowned upon...
I can remember a male primary teacher of mine in the 80s being very nonconformist. Less book learning, lots of discussion, project work, quizzes, classroom was an open book
Looking back I was lucky to have him for just one year.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

nice_guy80 wrote: »

We're those people from the 1950s?
Seriously
I've never seen or heard of progress in teaching being frowned upon...
I can remember a male primary teacher of mine in the 80s being very nonconformist. Less book learning, lots of discussion, project work, quizzes, classroom was an open book
Looking back I was lucky to have him for just one year.

1990s.

Nonconformist is probsbly a bit strong for where i stood, but from a Dept of Ed point, it would probably have been accurate.

Murrisk

volchitsa wrote: »

As for the idea that there might need to be a minimum quota of men - what are you going to do if enough men just don't want to be teachers, force them?

I know, the enforced quota post that got a lot of thanks early in this thread is still perplexing me. What if the quota wasn't met? Wouldn't it be better to look at how to encourage men to enter the profession rather than, apparently, force them to?

Also, I see a lot of opposition on boards.ie, rightfully, to the use of quotas to bring women into certain profession. People, again rightfully, oppose the idea on the grounds that people should get jobs on merit. So why has a post suggesting bringing in quotas to bring in more men to teaching been met with much more approval? It's odd.

volchitsa

Murrisk wrote: »

I know, the enforced quota post that got a lot of thanks early in this thread is still perplexing me. What if the quota wasn't met? Wouldn't it be better to look at how to encourage men to enter the profession rather than, apparently, force them to?

Also, I see a lot of opposition on boards.ie, rightfully, to the use of quotas to bring women into certain profession. People, again rightfully, oppose the idea on the grounds that people should get jobs on merit. So why has a post suggesting bringing in quotas to bring in more men to teaching been met with much more approval? It's odd.

Yes indeed, I very nearly pointed out something similar with another post, earlier, on this very thread, dismissing as "lack of female ambition" the fact that women are so over represented lower echelons of education and so underrepresented as principals, while at the same time it's apparently women's fault that men aren't becoming teachers! It would be funny if it weren't rather worrying just how much (possibly subconscious) hatred of women a significant number of male posters display on here.

evolving_doors

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Maybe so - this was a while back. Although at the time, a couple of friends and a former-teacher of mine advised me that this would have been a problem in the classroom.

'V for vendetta ' has the same themes as animal farm... which was on the English course for yonks.

silverharp

Murrisk wrote: »

I know, the enforced quota post that got a lot of thanks early in this thread is still perplexing me. What if the quota wasn't met? Wouldn't it be better to look at how to encourage men to enter the profession rather than, apparently, force them to?

Also, I see a lot of opposition on boards.ie, rightfully, to the use of quotas to bring women into certain profession. People, again rightfully, oppose the idea on the grounds that people should get jobs on merit. So why has a post suggesting bringing in quotas to bring in more men to teaching been met with much more approval? It's odd.

forcing doesnt make sense as a term to use, it still has to be somebody's top choice that they can get, and they still have to have the ability to do the job. The argument is that the "customer" wants male teachers which is different to many other professions where the customer doesnt care about the gender of who does the work.
As for the merit argument, it has to be set against the broad brush approach that competition by LC points is the best way to select trainee teachers, it might not be.
or you might want to look at how schools are organised? it's only tradition that primary schools tend to have 1 class teacher that teaches everything to one class. My own kids school primary teaches more like a secondary school with different teachers for languages and other subjects so one of my kids has male maths and science teachers which seems to work very well.

evolving_doors

volchitsa wrote: »

Yes indeed, I very nearly pointed out something similar with another post, earlier, on this very thread, dismissing as "lack of female ambition" the fact that women are so over represented lower echelons of education and so underrepresented as principals, while at the same time it's apparently women's fault that men aren't becoming teachers! It would be funny if it weren't rather worrying just how much (possibly subconscious) hatred of women a significant number of male posters display on here.

It's neither men or women's fault. Cutbacks have ensured low pay which discourages male participation.
Case in point... when recession hit we constantly had engineers in a forum enquiring about teaching in secondary. A lot thought it was just a matter of walking in to a classroom and 'hey i used to be an engineer now I'm a maths teacher'. And I knew 2 that did cross over. Once things picked up they were out the door tout suite.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Gebgbegb wrote: »

'V for vendetta ' has the same themes as animal farm... which was on the English course for yonks.

Not nessecariy true - animal farm deals with corruption and power of corruption to corrupt those in power; V for Vandetta does not. I'd argue 1984 would have been a closer match (also on some syallabi though)

In any case, if you decide to use something like V for Vandetta to make the point, I'm pretty sure question would have been asked.

nice_guy80

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

nice_guy80 wrote: »

We're those people from the 1950s?
Seriously
I've never seen or heard of progress in teaching being frowned upon...
I can remember a male primary teacher of mine in the 80s being very nonconformist. Less book learning, lots of discussion, project work, quizzes, classroom was an open book
Looking back I was lucky to have him for just one year.

1990s.

Nonconformist is probsbly a bit strong for where i stood, but from a Dept of Ed point, it would probably have been accurate.

Department of Education don't decide what schools or teachers actually teach

The teachers decide that themselves based on what they want the kids to learn
Teachers aren't robots. Most are quite autonomous

Sometimes they work to a school plan in each subject devised by the staff to ensure progression and certain areas aren't already done the previous year

evolving_doors

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not nessecariy true - animal farm deals with corruption and power of corruption to corrupt those in power; V for Vandetta does not. I'd argue 1984 would have been a closer match (also on some syallabi though)

In any case, if you decide to use something like V for Vandetta to make the point, I'm pretty sure question would have been asked.

I don't really see the big deal about V for vendetta. Only thing controversial is the mask adopted by anonymous.

silverharp

yep that would do it alright

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/teacher-kato-harris-cleared-of-raping-teenage-girl-at-london-school-warns-men-to-avoid-profession-a3516041.html?amp

Teacher Kato Harris cleared of raping teenage girl at London school warns men to avoid profession

geography teacher at an all-girls school in London has warned men not to become teachers after a false allegation of rape shattered his career.

Kato Harris, 38, was a head of department at the school when he was accused of attacking a 14-year-old girl three times in a classroom during lunch breaks in autumn 2013.

He was cleared of the allegation by a jury after a trial last year.

In an interview with the Mail on Sunday published today Mr Harris, from Richmond, said “one of the biggest challenges” he now faces is forgiving his accuser. He said he will forgive her one day but “just not now”.

He told the newspaper: "I would certainly advocate that no man qualify as a teacher. It is just not worth it. What is the lesson here? There is nothing to protect the male teacher."

tritium

volchitsa wrote: »

Yes indeed, I very nearly pointed out something similar with another post, earlier, on this very thread, dismissing as "lack of female ambition" the fact that women are so over represented lower echelons of education and so underrepresented as principals, while at the same time it's apparently women's fault that men aren't becoming teachers! It would be funny if it weren't rather worrying just how much (possibly subconscious) hatred of women a significant number of male posters display on here.

Wow, hell of a leap there, of the 2+2=600 variety!

You know it is reasonable to have a hypothesis that women amd men want different things from work amd career and its not just women being kept out of management by the boys right? Especially in a role like teaching which have clear lifestyle benefits