Male teachers - Mod Note Post #221

Corkgirl18

seamus wrote: »

There is a bias against men when it comes to applying for posts, but there's no political will to do anything about it because nobody seems to be really complaining.

I would disagree with you here. I have 2 brothers that are Primary teachers and many other relatives and they would say themselves that because male primary teachers are rarer they are sought after. Male Primary teachers with GAA are especially popular as they can do Sciath na Scol and the like with the kids.

Samaris

suicide_circus wrote: »

maybe, given the choice, more women want to work with kids than men.

maybe, given the choice, more men want to work in STEM areas than women.

Maybe. Let's make it a fair choice and then see how the sticks fall? I'm working in a very STEM profession-based company that, oddly, just gets far more female applicants at the moment (it's recently balanced out to about 60:40 female with some new guys joining). Strangely, it appears women like science too! Even hard male science like chemistry! Maybe with a bit of encouragement, more men would discover they like working with children as well.

stefanovich

skankkuvhima wrote: »

So why the urgency around women in STEM?

• http://witsireland.com/cms/ Women in Technology and Science
• http://www.iwish.ie/ Inspiring Women in Stem
• http://www.sfi.ie/funding/sfi-women-in-science/

Because, you see, equality means women get the supposed benefits that men get but not vice versa because we are privileged.

bmwguy

No discrimination or quotas here people, simple fact is that not many men want to do the job. Just like not many women want to be bricklayers, plumbers etc...

Just let men be men and women be women it's fine if people don't want to do a job leave them off.

That said, it's a pity more men don't. A female teacher friend of mine works in a school of 30 staff and not a single man works there apart from the caretaker (why are all caretakers men btw?) She says a few male teachers would be brilliant as very few of the females have a sporting history and they have to get people in to coach field sports properly.

I have 2 male friends that are primary teachers and they both love their jobs and do well. 1 is on a fast-track to being a principal too.

Samaris

stefanovich wrote: »

Because, you see, equality means women get the supposed benefits that men get but not vice versa because we are privileged.

And there's a bang-on example of one of the problems. Don't try to fix it, just blame women. How on earth do you think anything will change if you leave it as grumble on the internet that women are mean and do nothing else? What do you want to change? How do you want to change it? Are you willing to make suggestions?

Just blaming women (or men, for some other issues) won't solve anything. Just blaming women for having the temerity to fight for equal rights is the laziest option out there.

There is a real issue. Do something about it. Despite my man-hating ovaries, I'm happy to help and support as are many others.

R.D. aka MR.D

seamus wrote: »

There is also the paedophile issue where a man may fear to even mention an interest in primary teaching lest someone accuse him of just trying to get his hands on some kids.

This is definitely a factor and it is also another way that our culture needs to change.

Women abuse men. Women abuse children. Men can be rape survivors at the hands of a woman. These are all serious issues that people just sweep under the carpet. Or they are joked about.

In my honest opinion, I think this all boils down to the traditional view of women. They are 'harmless' or 'gentle' or 'loving'. I don't think these come from some lobby of women trying to make themselves better than men. It comes from the lack of wanting to see women as similar to men or god forbid equal.

Men and women need to be treated equally. This means that they are capable of being just as guilty as men.

It's the rigid ideas that we all have about what men are and what women are that need to change. That would improve things for all of us.

stefanovich

Samaris wrote: »

And there's a bang-on example of one of the problems. Don't try to fix it, just blame women. How on earth do you think anything will change if you leave it as grumble on the internet that women are mean and do nothing else? What do you want to change? How do you want to change it? Are you willing to make suggestions?

Just blaming women (or men, for some other issues) won't solve anything. Just blaming women for having the temerity to fight for equal rights is the laziest option out there.

There is a real issue. Do something about it. Despite my man-hating ovaries, I'm happy to help and support as are many others.

I have no problem with women fighting for their rights. It's the new wave of radical feminists which I despise.

Gatling

For me there seems to be stigmas attached to male teachers /child care workers with very little protections offered from the article linked in the op ,

Vital Transformation

suicide_circus wrote: »

maybe, given the choice, more women want to work with kids than men.

maybe, given the choice, more men want to work in STEM areas than women.

Yes, there are biological factors at play in why more men head into certain jobs and women others. In one of the Scandinavian countries they tried to make it as easy as possible for women to head into jobs where they are less represented. It just had the opposite effect, even more women choosing careers such as nursing etc.

Burial.

Wouldn't worry too much. The number of males entering teacher training colleges is growing pretty healthily and is considerably higher than the number 5/10 years ago. Whether they stay in Ireland or f*ck off abroad for the money is a different matter. I do know England has quite a shortage of teachers in general, actively recruiting from Irish colleges.

skankkuvhima

Burial. wrote: »

Wouldn't worry too much. The number of males entering teacher training colleges is growing pretty healthily and is considerably higher than the number 5/10 years ago. Whether they stay in Ireland or f*ck off abroad for the money is a different matter. I do know England has quite a shortage of teachers in general, actively recruiting from Irish colleges.

Can you provide some concrete figures?

Burial.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There should be a quota enforced where a certain percentage of teachers has to be male.

Absolutely. Young boys need male role models. To think a lot of primary schools don't have one male teacher/authority figure is rather alarming. Thankfully this seems to be getting rarer.

R.D. aka MR.D

Samaris wrote: »

And there's a bang-on example of one of the problems. Don't try to fix it, just blame women. How on earth do you think anything will change if you leave it as grumble on the internet that women are mean and do nothing else? What do you want to change? How do you want to change it? Are you willing to make suggestions?

Just blaming women (or men, for some other issues) won't solve anything. Just blaming women for having the temerity to fight for equal rights is the laziest option out there.

There is a real issue. Do something about it. Despite my man-hating ovaries, I'm happy to help and support as are many others.

Nail on the head here.

I'm involved in a few feminist orientated organisations. I don't know one woman who wants inequality for men. They want equality for all.

Just as there are men involved in these feminist orientated organisations, some in a leadership role, there would be women willing to get involved in helping to fix any inequalities that exist for men. What would put them off is the belief that all us feminists are involved in some huge conspiracy because we hate men.

Equality and unity is what is needed not divisiveness and suspicion.

Burial.

skankkuvhima wrote: »

Can you provide some concrete figures?

I graduated from one in the last two years where 1/4 of the year was male. Previous years had maybe 1/6 or 1/7 male. Highest ratio of males in one graduated class ever according to our Dean.

80s Child

It hasn't been mentioned here yet, but one of the major issues from the students I teach at second level, would be the monetary rewards.

They don't see reaching as something that'll make you wealthy! Many would rather engineering, actuary, medicine etc as the monetary gains far out weigh those in teaching.

Don't underestimate this as a reason!

For those that do choose to teach, the GAA, in our area particularly, is quite an important reason. It offers them a career where they never have to work on the weekend, so it doesn't impinge on matches etc.

Lastly, it's an ideal career for those with a supplementary income, mainly farming. As this is becoming more rare, it isn't offering the younger males a profession that compliments this, thus leaving us with fewer male teachers.

I'm basing the above observations for my own area obviously, but I think some of them ring true nationally.

silverharp

I think teachers in Ireland are pretty good and dedicated however looking around other countries like the US and Britain , the fact that most teachers now are women, there are going to be a number of math phobic ones and a number that dont like teaching boys and dont treat them well. At some stage that will creep in here, while in a lot of professions being a man or woman doesnt bring anything in particular to the table, boys at least should have some male teachers for balance.

spurious

Teaching used to have plenty men involved. Then it became seen as a 'woman's job' and money and esteem dropped.

Despite what the prattling classes like to think, it is not that well paid a job in comparison to other jobs which require a post graduate qualification, and is one with very few promotional opportunities, even if one is lucky enough to get a full time post, which most do not.

stefanovich

spurious wrote: »

Teaching used to have plenty men involved. Then it became seen as a 'woman's job' and money and esteem dropped.

Despite what the prattling classes like to think, it is not that well paid a job in comparison to other jobs which require a post graduate qualification, and is one with very few promotional opportunities, even if one is lucky enough to get a full time post, which most do not.

Is it still seen as a stepping stone to politics?

kylith

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I'm well aware people would have different interests than me it's just not a job that most men would want to do.

Considering so few men are actually becoming primary school teacher I suspect I'm not the only one with that opinion.

The question is why they don't want to do it. Is it that practically zero men have any interest in it, or are they afraid of being accused of paedophilia? Are they concerned about being mocked for doing a 'woman's job', similarly to how men entering nursing have been mocked?

If the latter two then we need to look into why that is and to tackle those reasons.

El_Duderino 09

seamus wrote:

There is a bias against men when it comes to applying for posts, but there's no political will to do anything about it because nobody seems to be really complaining.

The teachers unions are always banging the drum for getting more men into teaching. The same with the teaching unions in the UK. I'd imagine they're the most relevant publications. I don't now if you want to see articles about the lack of male teachers in GAA match programmes and cook books.

stefanovich wrote:

I'd say one factor discouraging men is the fact that we are all now considered potential abusers. Men are not allowed to sit next to unaccompanied children on planes for example. Could you imagine leaving a man in charge of a group of youngsters? They'd all be most certainly abused after about 15 minutes.

You're the only one saying that all men are potential abusers. You create a stick out of thin air, and then beat yourself with it. You're creating this notion that all male teachers are suspects, then trying to encourage more men into teaching.

If i heard someone suspect a man simply for becoming a teacher, I'd consider them a moron. You seem to be one of the people who suspect men for becoming teachers. Weird

cantdecide

spurious wrote: »

Despite what the prattling classes like to think, it is not that well paid a job in comparison to other jobs which require a post graduate qualification, and is one with very few promotional opportunities, even if one is lucky enough to get a full time post, which most do not.

I do agree but everything is relative. I earn €19,500 for full time work as a single person. I can't possibly build a life on my current wages. I can cover my bills and that's about it.

Part of the shift is the economics over the last quarter century or so. Teaching used to be a job for life which was very attractive but became less so when we had a massive economic boom. Now that a job for life isn't as sneer-worthy as it once was, now there is also a stark gender gap.

So many of my friends have a teacher for a wife. So many of my friends declare that she is the one with the good job.

stefanovich

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If i heard someone suspect a man simply for becoming a teacher, I'd consider them a moron. You seem to be one of the people who suspect men for becoming teachers. Weird

Thanks for the thinly veiled compliment.

There is certainly suspicion levelled at men these days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_seating_sex_discrimination_controversy

cantdecide

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The teachers unions are always banging the drum for getting more men into teaching.

And they might as it makes sense but who else is listening? No one the fcuk knew what 'STEM' was a couple of years ago but we all know how important it is that we funnel women into STEM ahead of more qualified men or the world will end.

Anyone that says the issue is being ignored is soft in the head. There is no motivation from the establishment as the public is as ambivalent as the man making his career choice - this issue won't sell papers, get votes or even get FB likes and shares. No one cares and no one has any motivation to change things which is quite grim.

El_Duderino 09

stefanovich wrote:

There is a certainly suspicion levelled at men these days.

I know there is suspicion leveled at men for becoming teachers. Its clear from reading your posts.

I don't suspect men for becoming primary school teachers. I was in a leaving cert class of 50 boys and 3 of them became primary teachers (one straight away and 2 more in the next few years). I lived with a lad in uni in the UK who's now a primary teacher. They're normal people in spite of how much suspicion you try to heap on them.

stefanovich

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

If i heard someone suspect a man simply for becoming a teacher, I'd consider them a moron. You seem to be one of the people who suspect men for becoming teachers. Weird

Bluewolf, as a moderator you shouldn't be encouraging this.

El_Duderino 09

cantdecide wrote:

And they might as it makes sense but who else is listening? No one the fcuk knew what 'STEM' was a couple of years ago but we all know how important it is that we funnel women into STEM ahead of more qualified men or the world will end.

Surely the INTO and other teaching groups are heavily involved in recruitment. They're the ones that should be talking about it if you want the situation to change by recruiting male teachers

stefanovich

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I know there is suspicion leveled at men for becoming teachers. Its clear from reading your posts.

I don't suspect men for becoming primary school teachers. I was in a leaving cert class of 50 boys and 3 of them became primary teachers (one straight away and 2 more in the next few years). I lived with a lad in uni in the UK who's now a primary teacher. They're normal people in spite of how much suspicion you try to heap on them.

Hold on. My post was sarcastic. I think that men are scared because of the negative stigma put on them these days. I'm actually of the same opinion as you, still think you are offside calling me a moron.

Dirty Dingus McGee

kylith wrote: »

The question is why they don't want to do it. Is it that practically zero men have any interest in it, or are they afraid of being accused of paedophilia? Are they concerned about being mocked for doing a 'woman's job', similarly to how men entering nursing have been mocked?

If the latter two then we need to look into why that is and to tackle those reasons.

In general Men don't tend to be as interested in children as women are so I suspect that is the reason less men want to be primary school teachers.

wakka12

I remember finding it funny how large the gender difference was between teachers in my primary and secondary school. My primary school had about 20 staff , all but one was female
My secondary school had 40 or so teachers, only 5 were female
Why such a big difference?

Interestingly, the majority of Western teachers in places like Asia are male and while some private classes might specifically ask for women, it's pretty rare. For a few years, my school had like ten male foreign teachers and no females.

As for teaching in Ireland, I'd never do it. Not for any money could it ever be worth it.