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Male teachers - Mod Note Post #221

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    Jobs OXO wrote: »
    Nope the trick was to get you to prove how well paid they are. Thanks for the linky! Good lad. Simples.

    You said Irish Teachers are the best in the EU.

    You are wrong.

    There was no trick.

    You were caught out. ...good lad.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,846 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    You said best paid in the EU.

    Also two of those links are the same article, the hearld seems to be a copy and paste of said article.

    Ed Walsh is a vindictive old man who hates teachers since they didnt agree with his view of education. Listen to him on the radio and you will see. He is despised by many a teacher.


    Also I think you will find that Denmark, Luxemburg are hire paid. Sooooo not fact?


    http://www.oecd.org/edu/education-at-a-glance-19991487.htm

    Or

    https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.oecd.org/edu/EAG2014-Indicator%2520D3%2520(eng).pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjB0KOfja_TAhWBD8AKHYGhBsMQFggZMAA&usg=AFQjCNHqSq7ayFst5B6MVfZeEE4_waStKw

    The herald one is from 2009 some would not seem to be of much use.
    The Indo ones wash finger after clicking) are 2014/15 and reference OECD averages, which I think includes Turkey and a lot of EU accession states that are poorer than Ireland. (edit - I see one of Indo links said they standardised for that so ignore this point).
    A quick read of these does seem to suggest that hours being worked are low compared to the other countries, but pay is not really out of whack.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 887 ✭✭✭Jobs OXO


    You said Irish Teachers are the best in the EU.

    You are wrong.

    There was no trick.

    You were caught out. ...good lad.

    Yes there was. The trick is to have the likes of you look through the links then find one that shows how well paid they are. Of course it's a trick. A fairly simple one just for my amusement. I knew there would be one who couldn't help themselves - there's always one - and lol and behold you pop along.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    Jobs OXO wrote: »
    Yes there was. The trick is to have the likes of you look through the links then find one that shows how well paid they are. Of course it's a trick. A fairly simple one just for my amusement. I knew there would be one who couldn't help themselves - there's always one - and lol and behold you pop along.....

    So you are just trolling....fair enough.


    To conclude.


    You are wrong, you were caught out. You made up a BS trick story to save face.


    Now that I'm done with you, begone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 887 ✭✭✭Jobs OXO


    So you are just trolling....fair enough.


    To conclude.


    You are wrong, you were caught out. You made up a BS trick story to save face.


    Now that I'm done with you, begone.

    Nope. You were caught out. A teacher posting a link showing how overpaid teachers in Ireland are ???

    LOL.

    And funny thing is you still can't see it!! Sure sure begone and all that !

    LOLLERS


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,184 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Full-time teachers start on approx 30k.

    Top of the scale is 60k approx.

    Accountants in Leinster start on approx 56,800, and head towards 110,000.

    https://leinster.charteredaccountants.ie/en/News/Salary-Survey-Results-2016/

    I don't think teachers are overpaid.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,254 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Personally myself I found male teachers were suited to the senior cycle of school and female teachers were suited better to resource classes.
    It's 'personally, myself, in my opinion, from my point of view, I' if you want to make it clear that it's your own thought. :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 887 ✭✭✭Jobs OXO


    Geuze wrote: »
    Full-time teachers start on approx 30k.

    Top of the scale is 60k approx.

    Accountants in Leinster start on approx 56,800, and head towards 110,000.

    https://leinster.charteredaccountants.ie/en/News/Salary-Survey-Results-2016/

    I don't think teachers are overpaid.

    Take into account the length of days teachers work and holidays that they get. Hourly rate is higher than 110k pa if they worked the same number of hours as accountants


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Jobs OXO wrote: »
    Six hours tops. A lot less in many cases. Junior infants finish at start at 9.10 and finish at 1.30. Throw in coffee break and lunch break and it's disgusting how little they work. And before anyone starts kids of 4/5/6 don't need homework correction out of school hours. I am sick of teachers spouting about all this 'fictous' work they do when the kids go home. Its typically lies.

    How do you know this?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Jobs OXO wrote: »
    Take into account the length of days teachers work and holidays that they get. Hourly rate is higher than 110k pa if they worked the same number of hours as accountants

    What teacher is actually getting 110k pa?
    What's your own profession?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 887 ✭✭✭Jobs OXO


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    How do you know this?

    I have kids in school and i have 2 cousins that are teachers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 887 ✭✭✭Jobs OXO


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    What teacher is actually getting 110k pa?
    What's your own profession?

    If they worked the same number as a top accountant at their hourly rate then they would easily achieve 110k pa.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,585 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Last week I picked up €2 that somebody had dropped and handed it back to them.

    It was a nice old woman and she said 'Ah sure you're very honest, you can keep it."

    For that 5 seconds, I earned €2, or as I like to think of it, €1440 an hour. Beat that, accountants!


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Jobs OXO wrote: »
    If they worked the same number as a top accountant at their hourly rate then they would easily achieve 110k pa.


    It's not even a valid comparison on any level as they're two completely different careers. My mother was a teacher who is retired now but I remember the hours she worked and the time and energy she put into education, she is still very much involved in education and loves to hear from her past pupils, a few of whom are indeed top accountants, medical professionals, engineering professionals, etc.

    Your limited perspective of the teaching profession is quite obvious, but understandable really. My perspective of the teaching profession is only one of the reasons why in spite of my mothers wishes that I follow in her footsteps, and don't get me wrong, I would have loved to as she instilled a passion for education in me too, and most of my relations both male and female on my mothers side of the family are teachers themselves who were inspired to become teachers following my mothers example, but I decided that I couldn't give the commitment to the profession that she did for the remuneration she received. I would have been doing a disservice to the profession which I have the utmost respect for and greatly admire those people whom I see are just as passionate about education as my mother is.

    It may be difficult for you, given your limited perspective, but try and appreciate the work that teachers do in educating generations of children that go on indeed to be top accountants, etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    red ears wrote: »
    I've often asked the same question. You would nearly think there was a national crisis facing us unless we get more women into STEM fields. Yet not a word on the lack of men in a critical area like teaching especially since it's clear boys are falling behind at school.

    The difference is that men used to have a monopoly on teaching and that men walked away from that profession once women came into it in large numbers.

    It may be worth investigating why that happened, and seeing what can be done about it, but this silly false equivalence between careers from which women were often actively discouraged, and those which men themselves stopped choosing really gets on my nerves.

    As for the idea that there might need to be a minimum quota of men - what are you going to do if enough men just don't want to be teachers, force them?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭skankkuvhima


    volchitsa wrote: »
    The difference is that men used to have a monopoly on teaching and that men walked away from that profession once women came into it in large numbers.

    It may be worth investigating why that happened, and seeing what can be done about it, but this silly false equivalence between careers from which women were often actively discouraged, and those which men themselves stopped choosing really gets on my nerves.

    As for the idea that there might need to be a minimum quota of men - what are you going to do if enough men just don't want to be teachers, force them?

    Ok, so your saying women don't go into certain professions because they are discouraged from them but men don't go into certain professions because they don't want to? So women are the victims yet for men it's their own fault. Gotcha. Good contribution :rolleyes:


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    volchitsa wrote: »
    The difference is that men used to have a monopoly on teaching and that men walked away from that profession once women came into it in large numbers.

    It may be worth investigating why that happened, and seeing what can be done about it, but this silly false equivalence between careers from which women were often actively discouraged, and those which men themselves stopped choosing really gets on my nerves.

    As for the idea that there might need to be a minimum quota of men - what are you going to do if enough men just don't want to be teachers, force them?

    When women go into a profession, earnings and fall and the status of the profession diminishes. That is why they are always trying to get more women in STEM; to bring down earnings and thus increase profits!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭skankkuvhima


    volchitsa wrote: »
    what are you going to do if enough men just don't want to be teachers, force them?

    We have gender quotas in politics, why not teaching? We have special grants and incentives and schemes for women in STEM, why not have them for men in teaching? Why can we propose solutions to encourage women into certain professions yet, according to you, it is impossible to do them same for men into teaching? Your bias is showing...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 281 ✭✭skankkuvhima


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    When women go into a profession, earnings and fall and the status of the profession diminishes. That is why they are always trying to get more women in STEM; to bring down earnings and thus increase profits!

    I actually secretly suspect this is 100% correct. What is going to be the impact on doubling the availability of STEM workers? Higher wages for all or lower wages for all?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Ok, so your saying women don't go into certain professions because they are discouraged from them but men don't go into certain professions because they don't want to? So women are the victims yet for men it's their own fault. Gotcha. Good contribution :rolleyes:

    Why don't you reply to the post itself, rather than to your own straw man version of it?

    I wasn't justifying the situation, in fact I think we should try to remedy it.

    However since the causes are not the same, it's very likely that successful remedies will have to be different.

    Obviously if your real aim is just to have a go at women then you won't be as interested in actually identifying the causes and solving the problem as much as about using it to complain about how unfairly men are treated.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Jobs OXO wrote: »
    I have kids in school and i have 2 cousins that are teachers.

    I don't know how your kids are qualified to tell you the pay and terms of employment of their teachers, maybe they're accounting prodigies like yourself! I'll ask my kids later and see if it's the same with their teacher :pac:

    Ya I've a few cousins that are accountants too... doesn't mean I know their job though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,626 ✭✭✭Glenster


    Geuze wrote: »
    Full-time teachers start on approx 30k.

    Top of the scale is 60k approx.

    Accountants in Leinster start on approx 56,800, and head towards 110,000.

    https://leinster.charteredaccountants.ie/en/News/Salary-Survey-Results-2016/

    I don't think teachers are overpaid.

    That salary poll is horsesh*t. It's excluding all the young newly qualifieds in practice and including all the experienced people doing an accountancy qualification in industry and financial services.

    Also, accountants starts at approx. 20-24K pa. It only moves up to 40-50 once you qualify through exams and 3-4 years experience.

    I qualified in practice and its not unusual to have people, and not necessarily particularly bad people, who qualify in a Big Four environment on a lower than max salary scale.

    One girl I knew got all her exams first time but was a nervous individual and qualified on 31K after 3.5 years of experience. She had a masters in accountancy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 887 ✭✭✭Jobs OXO


    It's not even a valid comparison on any level as they're two completely different careers. My mother was a teacher who is retired now but I remember the hours she worked and the time and energy she put into education, she is still very much involved in education and loves to hear from her past pupils, a few of whom are indeed top accountants, medical professionals, engineering professionals, etc.

    Your limited perspective of the teaching profession is quite obvious, but understandable really. My perspective of the teaching profession is only one of the reasons why in spite of my mothers wishes that I follow in her footsteps, and don't get me wrong, I would have loved to as she instilled a passion for education in me too, and most of my relations both male and female on my mothers side of the family are teachers themselves who were inspired to become teachers following my mothers example, but I decided that I couldn't give the commitment to the profession that she did for the remuneration she received. I would have been doing a disservice to the profession which I have the utmost respect for and greatly admire those people whom I see are just as passionate about education as my mother is.

    It may be difficult for you, given your limited perspective, but try and appreciate the work that teachers do in educating generations of children that go on indeed to be top accountants, etc.

    I wasn't the one who started comparing teachers to accountants. Take out your anger on that poster instead.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 887 ✭✭✭Jobs OXO


    Gebgbegb wrote: »
    I don't know how your kids are qualified to tell you the pay and terms of employment of their teachers, maybe they're accounting prodigies like yourself! I'll ask my kids later and see if it's the same with their teacher :pac:

    Ya I've a few cousins that are accountants too... doesn't mean I know their job though.

    Oh it's fairly easy to observe teachers when you pick up and drop off every day. Their salaries are public knowledge so I don't need my kids to work it out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    Glenster wrote: »
    That salary poll is horsesh*t. It's excluding all the young newly qualifieds in practice and including all the experienced people doing an accountancy qualification in industry and financial services.

    Also, accountants starts at approx. 20-24K pa. It only moves up to 40-50 once you qualify through exams and 3-4 years experience.

    I qualified in practice and its not unusual to have people, and not necessarily particularly bad people, who qualify in a Big Four environment on a lower than max salary scale.

    One girl I knew got all her exams first time but was a nervous individual and qualified on 31K after 3.5 years of experience. She had a masters in accountancy.

    that used to be a top profession to go into, it seems to have lost a lot of its luster. I know a few at Financial controller level but they aren't on great money for the time and effort they put into it at the start.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 945 ✭✭✭red ears


    volchitsa wrote: »
    As for the idea that there might need to be a minimum quota of men - what are you going to do if enough men just don't want to be teachers, force them?

    Just do what is being done for women and STEM, sell it to them a little, encourage them to go into that field. No need for quotas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    red ears wrote: »
    Just do what is being done for women and STEM, sell it to them a little, encourage them to go into that field. No need for quotas.

    Do you get that if a group of people have stopped doing something they once did in large numbers, a little encouragement to "give it a go" may not work as well as it might for people who traditionally would never even think of taking up that activity?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    One question is, how many boys apply but don't get it? there could be lots of competent boys applying but because of the points race are pipped at the post because of the amount of girls that apply. not much you can do about that though, it is demand and supply.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭evolving_doors


    Glenster wrote: »
    That salary poll is horsesh*t. It's excluding all the young newly qualifieds in practice and including all the experienced people doing an accountancy qualification in industry and financial services.

    Also, accountants starts at approx. 20-24K pa. It only moves up to 40-50 once you qualify through exams and 3-4 years experience.

    I qualified in practice and its not unusual to have people, and not necessarily particularly bad people, who qualify in a Big Four environment on a lower than max salary scale.

    One girl I knew got all her exams first time but was a nervous individual and qualified on 31K after 3.5 years of experience. She had a masters in accountancy.

    After qualification and 3-4 years experience what's the bracket for teaching?
    Do many qualified experienced accountants go on to do sub work or pro rata in the big 4?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    silverharp wrote: »
    One question is, how many boys apply but don't get it? there could be lots of competent boys applying but because of the points race are pipped at the post because of the amount of girls that apply. not much you can do about that though, it is demand and supply.

    Well if there's any evidence for that, let's have it?

    (I'm not entirely sure what you're saying though - that the girls applying have higher points and therefore boys get rejected? Or that so many girls apply that the boys are a drop in the ocean? Because again, any effective response to those issues would have to be tailored to what exactly the cause is. Hence my request for evidence.)


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