Male teachers - Mod Note Post #221

skankkuvhima

I was reading this news article http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/teacher-cleared-raping-pupil-says-10240712 and I got to thinking - is there any good reason for a man to go into teaching? I see in this INTO research publication https://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/GenderImbalancePrimaryTeaching.pdf that by 2035 there could be a scenario where we have no male teachers yet we are doing nothing about it. Yet on the other side we have tonnes of "Women In Technology" scholarships and grants to encourage women into tech. Why no grants to encourage men into teaching?

MOD: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103261893&postcount=221

There should be a quota enforced where a certain percentage of teachers has to be male.

Poor Uncle Tom

They should just ban teachers from becoming politicians....

tayto lover

Female teachers lose a lot of time from the classroom due to maternity leave and it can disrupt the child's learning with subs coming in, especially in the case of young pupils who take time to build up trust and get used to a teacher.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Deleted User wrote: »

There should be a quota enforced where a certain percentage of teachers has to be male.

No there shouldn't.

scopper

Might be a good welfare option, rather than those job schemes/FAS/Intreo crap set men on-track for teaching? When I was younger on welfare for a year that would have been snapped up by myself.

Dirty Dingus McGee

I have no idea why any man would want to be a primary school teacher.

bnt

Well, the students now know that they can get out of things by accusing a male teacher of being a perv. Maybe, one day, all classrooms and hallways will have cameras in them - the equivalent of dashcams in cars - to be used after accusations are made. At the moment, any man who seeks to work with children is going to be treated like a potential criminal.

red ears

I've often asked the same question. You would nearly think there was a national crisis facing us unless we get more women into STEM fields. Yet not a word on the lack of men in a critical area like teaching especially since it's clear boys are falling behind at school.

BlinkingLights

The worst I ever encountered was when I was a kid myself. My school was fairly large and we had three of each class.

When I was in 3rd class one of my friends was taken out of my class and put into another class because his mum felt that a female teacher was more appropriate.

My teacher at the time was an absolutely great educator. He was able to explain everything very well, he was good fun, looked after us very well and actually dealt with the few issues of bullying that ever cropped up without causing any issues.
He also managed to keep the class atmosphere really positive and wasn't that kind of authoritarian style of teacher that often crops up in Ireland. He was all about learning by doing and that usually involved tons of mad projects.

I'm not saying that that he was any better than some of the female teachers that I had but he was great around kids, and he was a guy you'd go to, no hesitation, if you had a problem, an accident in the yard etc etc.

I was actually really very put out by what I heard both because one of my best mates was now in a different class and because I think I got my first sense of righteous indignation about what was just pure sexism being used against someone I genuinely got on very well with. Also as a male myself it stuck in my memory and probably impacted how I felt about ever being a teacher myself.

R.D. aka MR.D

Men need to be encouraged to consider the career.

The best teacher's of little kids I've met have been men. But you never see that here. I've actually never even heard of a male baby infants teacher.

I mean, why would would they? Women are better with little kids. :rolleyes:

It's the same reason father's in this country don't get a fair deal in the courts. Women are naturally better at being mothers. :rolleyes:

It's the traditional gender roles that are holding us all back. Even these female quotas. Women can't achieve on their own, they need men to help them. :rolleyes:


It's the culture that needs to change and that starts with parents and schools encouraging all children to achieve what they want. Stop the nonsense of for boys or for girls. We should all be equal. From talking to friends with kids, that's a loooong way off though. Maybe when the teenagers of today get to their 30s and start raising kids, they will be a bit more clued in.

Samaris

Problem is that men just don't seem to want to go into teaching or nursing and there is a chronic shortage. A large part of it is that men are discouraged by society (including other men) from going into "nuturing" professions as they are seen as less masculine. It's complete bullsh*t, but that is how it stands at the moment. It's the same issue as women being discouraged from going into "male" professions. The main difference is that women, tbh, are better organised at fighting back against this sort of thing whereas men just aren't historically used to having to actually fight for equal rights. They haven't got the network established, and too many of the networks that have been established have been co-opted by the lunatic fringe. I've been arguing for years that they need to organise and campaign and I (as a woman and a feminist) am in full support of it. It just shouldn't be couched as "the feminists are taking our jerbs" because your best damn allies are the feminists who already understand how to campaign and network around issues of societal inequality.

https://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/GenderImbalancePrimaryTeaching.pdf

It is a known issue. The section in that regarding positive discrimination for gender equality is talked about and is interesting, but I think the only way it's going to work is if the view that males shouldn't want to be in so-called "nuturing professions" is done away with. No amount of positive discrimination would have gotten women into "male" jobs unless the women really wanted to be in them. This idiot social view has to be done away with. But men and women have to engage in rational, constructive discourse about it and men need to teach their sons that primary school teaching is absolutely fine for a boy to want to get into as a career. While this social view exists nothing will be done.

suicide_circus

Children don't need male role models or perspective. PATRIARCHY! !!!

Tea-a-Maria

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I have no idea why any man would want to be a primary school teacher.

I can! Those 2 months of summer holidays are very handy when you play GAA. There is actually a huge portion of young men in my area who became primary teachers and a lot of young lads doing their leaving are thinking of the same career path when they see the good work-life balance these lads have.

Same said lads all found jobs relatively easily too since schools are crying out for young male teachers, especially those who are willing to coach sports teams.

BlinkingLights

I think we need to look at equality as equality, not as men vs women.

If you've an issue in a profession where it's being totally dominated by one gender, you've a perception and recruitment issue.

There's also a notion that just inverting sexism is acceptable. It's not. We are supposed to be trying to be an equal society where your gender doesn't cause you to be disadvantaged.

There are still professions with massive issues recruiting women but those are being worked on. The handful of professions, notably teaching, which has swung from relatively equal historically to being very female dominated now really does need to be addressed.

Also the reason why you're getting relatively over representation of men in principal's jobs is equally weird.

There's a lot going on in teaching due to the culture. Then again it's there only modern irish part of society that splits things up in terms of students by gender in many schools. It's also a sector that's still organised on the basis of what amounts to religious sectarianism and that still feels it's acceptable to expect opt outs from equality law.

I would suspect the primary and secondary education system is operating in a bit of an bubble when it comes to recruitment culture generally.

enzo roco

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I have no idea why any man would want to be a primary school teacher.

My goodness, you have no idea.

Maybe some people want to, they may even have different interests to you, and choose different careers than you did. Unbelievable!!!

bnt

Now, the Mirror article is about a secondary school teacher, while the INTO document is about primary school teaching. The skills required are somewhat different: primary school teachers have to do everything, which explains the Klingon Gaelige requirement. I'd never considered primary teaching, so I wasn't aware of that anyway. I went to primary school in South Africa years ago and never had a male teacher there either, and I'm not convinced it's a major problem at that level, despite what the document says.

I have considered secondary teaching, since my Engineering degree would probably allow me to teach something in that area. (I could probably teach Maths and Science too, but the requirements are strict - as if you have to have a degree specialising in advanced Maths before you can teach secondary Maths, which is excessive.) But no, even if the money wasn't so poor and the work environment harsh, I'm not going to risk the kind of accusations and character assassination that any male teacher can be exposed to.

jamesbere

By 2035 we'll be under control of robots so it won't matter

Samaris

Oh, apologies for that, I got it into my head that it was primary school-related, bnt. Although both are an issue, imo.

Growing up, I had ...hm..zero male teachers in primary (mind you, I was in an all-girls Catholic school, and the all-boys Catholic school across the road had, afaik, no female teachers). My secondary school was also female-only (it became co-ed two-three years after I left) and Iiii recall three male full-time teachers and a couple of male subs (one of whom should not have been allowed within a country mile of female students, or probably any students, but that is way beside the point). One of those male teachers remains one of my two favourite teachers and a major influence in my interest in English and History since. I've often contemplated writing to him to thank him for his lessons in secondary school, but I've never quite decided if that's weird or not. Also, my handwriting and liberal abuse of commas might cause an English teacher's head to spin and green vomiting to ensue. Not wishing to be responsible for demonic possession, I've refrained so far.


My father was a teacher in an all-girls secondary school and found it extremely difficult. He coped far better with boys or mixed-gender schools. I gotta admit, teaching students only of the opposite gender is probably a rather intimidating experience for a young/new teacher in particular. Co-ed schools being the norm I suspect will actually help matters.

Samaris

>.< I can't believe I'm suggesting this, but does anyone think it would help to protect both students and teachers if there were CCTV cameras in classrooms? My gut doesn't like the concept, but male teachers in particular are at risk from accusations and, conversely, students have been at risk from teachers of both genders before as we in Ireland are well-aware.

Peregrine

Samaris wrote: »

>.< I can't believe I'm suggesting this, but does anyone think it would help to protect both students and teachers if there were CCTV cameras in classrooms? My gut doesn't like the concept, but male teachers in particular are at risk from accusations and, conversely, students have been at risk from teachers of both genders before as we in Ireland are well-aware.

Aren't there? My old secondary school had CCTV installed in classrooms 10 years ago.

cantdecide

R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »

Men need to be encouraged to consider the career.

The best teacher's of little kids I've met have been men. But you never see that here. I've actually never even heard of a male baby infants teacher.

I mean, why would would they? Women are better with little kids. :rolleyes:

It's the same reason father's in this country don't get a fair deal in the courts. Women are naturally better at being mothers. :rolleyes:

It's the traditional gender roles that are holding us all back. Even these female quotas. Women can't achieve on their own, they need men to help them. :rolleyes:


It's the culture that needs to change and that starts with parents and schools encouraging all children to achieve what they want. Stop the nonsense of for boys or for girls. We should all be equal. From talking to friends with kids, that's a loooong way off though. Maybe when the teenagers of today get to their 30s and start raising kids, they will be a bit more clued in.

I agree with everything you say but the point I've bolded is crux of the issue - the culture is changing and it's to the detriment of men. As previously mentioned;

Samaris wrote: »

The main difference is that women, tbh, are better organised at fighting back against this sort of thing whereas men just aren't historically used to having to actually fight for equal rights.

I would argue that it's some way explained byt the feminist establishment in government and education that applauds girls for every achievement and berates men and boys for every little thing. The ambivalent hoards lap up the untruths as facts and don't treat the motives with the healthy cynicism they deserve. In this example, feminism IS the patriarchy.

I think it was Dr. Warren Farrell says that said that the feminised education system treats boys like defective girls. This goes some of the way to explaining why girls outperform boys at all levels of education these days which is brilliant considering that when the stats were reversed it was a huge problem. At least we know now that girls are smarter than boys... which is what we've been hearing for generations so the reverse is not a problem at all.

dav3

I think people could be on to something here. There are plenty of headbangers floating about these days convinced that de feminists and de women are out to get them. One would imagine that some of these opinions were formed when teacher didn't give them enough attention in school. This rampant paranoia and irrational thinking will only get worse if we don't force more men into becoming teachers.

So how do we force men to become teachers when they don't want to. Do we hold a lottery where we pick the names of any man of working age and force them to give up their job, or dole and become a teacher?

Presumably the people on here giving out about it are in the process of quitting their job and becoming teachers?

It's probably similar to getting women into STEM professions.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/are-parents-to-blame-for-the-lack-of-women-in-stem-1.2947860

New report says Irish mothers and fathers are directing their daughters away from the field.

Whether the profession is in STEM with women or teaching with men, the conversation usually goes 'you should definitely get into this profession...I would never do it...but you definitely should'.

We probably need a better strategy.

And yes there have been plenty of reports and discussions on this, at both primary and secondary level.

https://education.ie/en/Publications/Policy-Reports/Males-into-Primary-Teaching-Report-of-the-Primary-Education-Committee-2006-.pdf

https://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/GenderImbalancePrimaryTeaching.pdf

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/into-demands-action-to-address-teacher-gender-imbalance-424926.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/report-highlights-drop-in-male-teacher-numbers-1.1185233

seamus

RD has the nail on the head there.

It's simply that primary teaching has always somewhat seen as women's work because it's considered babysitting children. Whereas you see far more men in secondary teaching.

There is also the paedophile issue where a man may fear to even mention an interest in primary teaching lest someone accuse him of just trying to get his hands on some kids.

The problem overall though is that nobody sees it as a problem. There is a bias against men when it comes to applying for posts, but there's no political will to do anything about it because nobody seems to be really complaining.

Dirty Dingus McGee

enzo roco wrote: »

My goodness, you have no idea.

Maybe some people want to, they may even have different interests to you, and choose different careers than you did. Unbelievable!!!

I'm well aware people would have different interests than me it's just not a job that most men would want to do.

Considering so few men are actually becoming primary school teacher I suspect I'm not the only one with that opinion.

suicide_circus

maybe, given the choice, more women want to work with kids than men.

maybe, given the choice, more men want to work in STEM areas than women.

stefanovich

skankkuvhima wrote: »

I was reading this news article http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/teacher-cleared-raping-pupil-says-10240712 and I got to thinking - is there any good reason for a man to go into teaching? I see in this INTO research publication https://www.into.ie/ROI/Publications/GenderImbalancePrimaryTeaching.pdf that by 2035 there could be a scenario where we have no male teachers yet we are doing nothing about it. Yet on the other side we have tonnes of "Women In Technology" scholarships and grants to encourage women into tech. Why no grants to encourage men into teaching?

I'd say one factor discouraging men is the fact that we are all now considered potential abusers. Men are not allowed to sit next to unaccompanied children on planes for example. Could you imagine leaving a man in charge of a group of youngsters? They'd all be most certainly abused after about 15 minutes.

Corkgirl18

Peregrine wrote: »

Aren't there? My old secondary school had CCTV installed in classrooms 10 years ago.

No school I've ever worked in have cameras in classrooms. Just in common areas like corridors and the canteen.

skankkuvhima

suicide_circus wrote: »

maybe, given the choice, more women want to work with kids than men.

maybe, given the choice, more men want to work in STEM areas than women.

So why the urgency around women in STEM?

• http://witsireland.com/cms/ Women in Technology and Science
• http://www.iwish.ie/ Inspiring Women in Stem
• http://www.sfi.ie/funding/sfi-women-in-science/

R.D. aka MR.D

Samaris wrote: »

>.< I can't believe I'm suggesting this, but does anyone think it would help to protect both students and teachers if there were CCTV cameras in classrooms? My gut doesn't like the concept, but male teachers in particular are at risk from accusations and, conversely, students have been at risk from teachers of both genders before as we in Ireland are well-aware.

I'd be all for it. When I was teaching abroad my first two schools had cctv in the classroom. When I moved to my third school, there was no cctv and it made me incredibly uncomfortable.

I'm on cctv at my job now (not teaching) and there are laws in place that mean it can't be used against me if it catches me booking flights on Ryanair instead of working. Those same laws should protect teachers from having the cctv be about poor performance. When I was teaching, I always felt it was there to protect me if one of the students decided to lie (which had happened to one of the teachers before me).

PARlance

I thought the males just rocked into Primary Schools and took the Principle job.

Corkgirl18

seamus wrote: »

There is a bias against men when it comes to applying for posts, but there's no political will to do anything about it because nobody seems to be really complaining.

I would disagree with you here. I have 2 brothers that are Primary teachers and many other relatives and they would say themselves that because male primary teachers are rarer they are sought after. Male Primary teachers with GAA are especially popular as they can do Sciath na Scol and the like with the kids.

Samaris

suicide_circus wrote: »

maybe, given the choice, more women want to work with kids than men.

maybe, given the choice, more men want to work in STEM areas than women.

Maybe. Let's make it a fair choice and then see how the sticks fall? I'm working in a very STEM profession-based company that, oddly, just gets far more female applicants at the moment (it's recently balanced out to about 60:40 female with some new guys joining). Strangely, it appears women like science too! Even hard male science like chemistry! Maybe with a bit of encouragement, more men would discover they like working with children as well.

stefanovich

skankkuvhima wrote: »

So why the urgency around women in STEM?

• http://witsireland.com/cms/ Women in Technology and Science
• http://www.iwish.ie/ Inspiring Women in Stem
• http://www.sfi.ie/funding/sfi-women-in-science/

Because, you see, equality means women get the supposed benefits that men get but not vice versa because we are privileged.

bmwguy

No discrimination or quotas here people, simple fact is that not many men want to do the job. Just like not many women want to be bricklayers, plumbers etc...

Just let men be men and women be women it's fine if people don't want to do a job leave them off.

That said, it's a pity more men don't. A female teacher friend of mine works in a school of 30 staff and not a single man works there apart from the caretaker (why are all caretakers men btw?) She says a few male teachers would be brilliant as very few of the females have a sporting history and they have to get people in to coach field sports properly.

I have 2 male friends that are primary teachers and they both love their jobs and do well. 1 is on a fast-track to being a principal too.

Samaris

stefanovich wrote: »

Because, you see, equality means women get the supposed benefits that men get but not vice versa because we are privileged.

And there's a bang-on example of one of the problems. Don't try to fix it, just blame women. How on earth do you think anything will change if you leave it as grumble on the internet that women are mean and do nothing else? What do you want to change? How do you want to change it? Are you willing to make suggestions?

Just blaming women (or men, for some other issues) won't solve anything. Just blaming women for having the temerity to fight for equal rights is the laziest option out there.

There is a real issue. Do something about it. Despite my man-hating ovaries, I'm happy to help and support as are many others.

R.D. aka MR.D

seamus wrote: »

There is also the paedophile issue where a man may fear to even mention an interest in primary teaching lest someone accuse him of just trying to get his hands on some kids.

This is definitely a factor and it is also another way that our culture needs to change.

Women abuse men. Women abuse children. Men can be rape survivors at the hands of a woman. These are all serious issues that people just sweep under the carpet. Or they are joked about.

In my honest opinion, I think this all boils down to the traditional view of women. They are 'harmless' or 'gentle' or 'loving'. I don't think these come from some lobby of women trying to make themselves better than men. It comes from the lack of wanting to see women as similar to men or god forbid equal.

Men and women need to be treated equally. This means that they are capable of being just as guilty as men.

It's the rigid ideas that we all have about what men are and what women are that need to change. That would improve things for all of us.

stefanovich

Samaris wrote: »

And there's a bang-on example of one of the problems. Don't try to fix it, just blame women. How on earth do you think anything will change if you leave it as grumble on the internet that women are mean and do nothing else? What do you want to change? How do you want to change it? Are you willing to make suggestions?

Just blaming women (or men, for some other issues) won't solve anything. Just blaming women for having the temerity to fight for equal rights is the laziest option out there.

There is a real issue. Do something about it. Despite my man-hating ovaries, I'm happy to help and support as are many others.

I have no problem with women fighting for their rights. It's the new wave of radical feminists which I despise.

Gatling

For me there seems to be stigmas attached to male teachers /child care workers with very little protections offered from the article linked in the op ,

Vital Transformation

suicide_circus wrote: »

maybe, given the choice, more women want to work with kids than men.

maybe, given the choice, more men want to work in STEM areas than women.

Yes, there are biological factors at play in why more men head into certain jobs and women others. In one of the Scandinavian countries they tried to make it as easy as possible for women to head into jobs where they are less represented. It just had the opposite effect, even more women choosing careers such as nursing etc.

Burial.

Wouldn't worry too much. The number of males entering teacher training colleges is growing pretty healthily and is considerably higher than the number 5/10 years ago. Whether they stay in Ireland or f*ck off abroad for the money is a different matter. I do know England has quite a shortage of teachers in general, actively recruiting from Irish colleges.

skankkuvhima

Burial. wrote: »

Wouldn't worry too much. The number of males entering teacher training colleges is growing pretty healthily and is considerably higher than the number 5/10 years ago. Whether they stay in Ireland or f*ck off abroad for the money is a different matter. I do know England has quite a shortage of teachers in general, actively recruiting from Irish colleges.

Can you provide some concrete figures?

Burial.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There should be a quota enforced where a certain percentage of teachers has to be male.

Absolutely. Young boys need male role models. To think a lot of primary schools don't have one male teacher/authority figure is rather alarming. Thankfully this seems to be getting rarer.

R.D. aka MR.D

Samaris wrote: »

And there's a bang-on example of one of the problems. Don't try to fix it, just blame women. How on earth do you think anything will change if you leave it as grumble on the internet that women are mean and do nothing else? What do you want to change? How do you want to change it? Are you willing to make suggestions?

Just blaming women (or men, for some other issues) won't solve anything. Just blaming women for having the temerity to fight for equal rights is the laziest option out there.

There is a real issue. Do something about it. Despite my man-hating ovaries, I'm happy to help and support as are many others.

Nail on the head here.

I'm involved in a few feminist orientated organisations. I don't know one woman who wants inequality for men. They want equality for all.

Just as there are men involved in these feminist orientated organisations, some in a leadership role, there would be women willing to get involved in helping to fix any inequalities that exist for men. What would put them off is the belief that all us feminists are involved in some huge conspiracy because we hate men.

Equality and unity is what is needed not divisiveness and suspicion.

Burial.

skankkuvhima wrote: »

Can you provide some concrete figures?

I graduated from one in the last two years where 1/4 of the year was male. Previous years had maybe 1/6 or 1/7 male. Highest ratio of males in one graduated class ever according to our Dean.

80s Child

It hasn't been mentioned here yet, but one of the major issues from the students I teach at second level, would be the monetary rewards.

They don't see reaching as something that'll make you wealthy! Many would rather engineering, actuary, medicine etc as the monetary gains far out weigh those in teaching.

Don't underestimate this as a reason!

For those that do choose to teach, the GAA, in our area particularly, is quite an important reason. It offers them a career where they never have to work on the weekend, so it doesn't impinge on matches etc.

Lastly, it's an ideal career for those with a supplementary income, mainly farming. As this is becoming more rare, it isn't offering the younger males a profession that compliments this, thus leaving us with fewer male teachers.

I'm basing the above observations for my own area obviously, but I think some of them ring true nationally.

silverharp

I think teachers in Ireland are pretty good and dedicated however looking around other countries like the US and Britain , the fact that most teachers now are women, there are going to be a number of math phobic ones and a number that dont like teaching boys and dont treat them well. At some stage that will creep in here, while in a lot of professions being a man or woman doesnt bring anything in particular to the table, boys at least should have some male teachers for balance.

spurious

Teaching used to have plenty men involved. Then it became seen as a 'woman's job' and money and esteem dropped.

Despite what the prattling classes like to think, it is not that well paid a job in comparison to other jobs which require a post graduate qualification, and is one with very few promotional opportunities, even if one is lucky enough to get a full time post, which most do not.

stefanovich

spurious wrote: »

Teaching used to have plenty men involved. Then it became seen as a 'woman's job' and money and esteem dropped.

Despite what the prattling classes like to think, it is not that well paid a job in comparison to other jobs which require a post graduate qualification, and is one with very few promotional opportunities, even if one is lucky enough to get a full time post, which most do not.

Is it still seen as a stepping stone to politics?

kylith

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I'm well aware people would have different interests than me it's just not a job that most men would want to do.

Considering so few men are actually becoming primary school teacher I suspect I'm not the only one with that opinion.

The question is why they don't want to do it. Is it that practically zero men have any interest in it, or are they afraid of being accused of paedophilia? Are they concerned about being mocked for doing a 'woman's job', similarly to how men entering nursing have been mocked?

If the latter two then we need to look into why that is and to tackle those reasons.

El_Duderino 09

seamus wrote:

There is a bias against men when it comes to applying for posts, but there's no political will to do anything about it because nobody seems to be really complaining.

The teachers unions are always banging the drum for getting more men into teaching. The same with the teaching unions in the UK. I'd imagine they're the most relevant publications. I don't now if you want to see articles about the lack of male teachers in GAA match programmes and cook books.

stefanovich wrote:

I'd say one factor discouraging men is the fact that we are all now considered potential abusers. Men are not allowed to sit next to unaccompanied children on planes for example. Could you imagine leaving a man in charge of a group of youngsters? They'd all be most certainly abused after about 15 minutes.

You're the only one saying that all men are potential abusers. You create a stick out of thin air, and then beat yourself with it. You're creating this notion that all male teachers are suspects, then trying to encourage more men into teaching.

If i heard someone suspect a man simply for becoming a teacher, I'd consider them a moron. You seem to be one of the people who suspect men for becoming teachers. Weird