All Ireland SHC Final (formerly SHC thread) - READ MOD NOTE POST #1

dastardly00

I had to laugh when the TV cameras picked up Davy in the stand during the first half yesterday. Who knew that he works part-time as an Air Traffic Controller for Cork Airport?

Reputable Rog

dastardly00 wrote: »

I had to laugh when the TV cameras picked up Davy in the stand during the first half yesterday. Who knew that he works part-time as an Air Traffic Controller for Cork Airport?

Well his old man was on the board of Cork Airport, so its not inconceivable.

JRant

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I think a lot of the discussion around sweeper systems, where the matches are played and so on are kind of missing the point.

The GAA at its core is not about the county scene, its about the club scene. And the clubs are absolutely thriving at the moment - all over the country. Huge investment has gone in, club facilities generally speaking are very good and as a result the GAA club is the go to place for young families that want their kids to be involved in sport. For as long as that the case, then GAA games will be a thing that families do together and big crowds will be showing up to games - whether its sweeper or not, or whether its in Pairc Ui Chaoimh or Limerick or Nowlan Park.

A lot of the legendary games of GAA - like Galway winning in 1980, or Offaly in 1982 - the finals didn't play to a stadium at full capacity.

The clubs are absolutely the heart and soul of the GAA and the numbers of boys and girls playing is proof positive. What also needs to be acknowledged is that HQ and the blazers of the respective CC's couldn't give a shîte about the club players. They are solely focused on the intercounty scene and to hell with anything else. It's not even up for debate as far as I'm concerned. Club players have to sit around on there arses for the majority of the year so a few intercounty lads can do their thing. When they're not doing that they'll schedule a round of the county championship for the same day as the intercounty team are playing, like the dublin county board did recently.

Realt Dearg Sec

Reputable Rog wrote: »

dastardly00 wrote: »

I had to laugh when the TV cameras picked up Davy in the stand during the first half yesterday. Who knew that he works part-time as an Air Traffic Controller for Cork Airport?

Well his old man was on the board of Cork Airport, so its not inconceivable.

Which means he'll probably keep the job two years after he should be fired

Powerhouse

gilberto_eire wrote: »

There's a few factors at play here.

Firstly 1B was a case of win two games and the league was over.
Wexford were hard at it all winter and had a warm up to the Galway game beating Limerick, despite that Galway had Wexford on the racks twice.. maybe it was fitness in the end as they just about reeled us in at the death.

Fast forward to league quarter finals, Waterford run ahead, it's not even that they're dominating but Galway are missing every chance they get, they click into gear and wipe Wateford out in the second half.

Play Limerick in Limerick, beat them by 10 points.
Beat Tipperary by 16 points.
Beat Dublin by 10 odd.
Score 30 times against Offaly.
And beat Wexford by 9.

In all the game this year against proper teams, Galway have broke the 20 score mark.
Including the lesser teams, that stat runs further.

The work rate of the players has been the big change, backs are clearing the ball under pressure.
That means the balls will go anywhere which makes it a backs ball.

Also on the flip side the backs are dominating and getting quality balls into the forwards hence the scoring increase.

Galway could very well of won it last year... I doubt Tipperary come through if Canning/Tuohy are swapped with Callanan/Barrett.

With last year in mind and the more settled spine to the team this year there's been a marked improvement in play and they're rightly favourites.

The rest have been dreadful in some shape or form, Cork haven't either but their blip is how real this improvement is given their form up until May.

Firstly 1B was a case of win two games and the league was over.

Championship is not a million miles from this - lose one game and it's over. The point is that Galway coughed up the game that mattered.

Fast forward to league quarter finals, Waterford run ahead, it's not even that they're dominating but Galway are missing every chance they get, they click into gear and wipe Waterford out in the second half.

THREE of the Waterford team that started that game started yesterday. You seem not to realise that they played their second team in that game.

Play Limerick in Limerick, beat them by 10 points.

Okay, but not necessarily the stuff of inevitable All-Ireland champions.

Beat Tipperary by 16 points.

Will be interesting to see if this margin is repeatable on Sunday week.

Beat Dublin by 10 odd.

Tipperary beat Dublin by 22 points.

Score 30 times against Offaly.

Waterford scored 36 times against Offaly.

And beat Wexford by 9.

Wexford were shown to be an ordinary team yesterday again.

In all the game this year against proper teams, Galway have broke the 20 score mark.

This is fine is so far as it goes, but Clare broke the 20 score mark in both of their Munster championship games too and ended up with nothing. In this day and age a team can play fairly badly and hit 1-17/1-18 (example, Dublin 1-17 v Galway, 1-19 against Tipperary). Tipperary had 16 scores by half time against Clare. Tipperary and Cork had 15 points apiece at half-time in the Munster championship. 20 scores will really be the minimum requirement to be competitive.

Including the lesser teams, that stat runs further.

Of course it does, but it will matter nothing what teams do against the lesser teams when teams are in Croke Park.

The work rate of the players has been the big change, backs are clearing the ball under pressure. That means the balls will go anywhere which makes it a backs ball.

This is fair enough but again my point is that this has not been tested at a high level yet. It is based on assumption. Lots of teams have come to Croke Park thinking have the work-rate business cracked. That will be tested under more rigorous conditions in the coming game/games.

Also on the flip side the backs are dominating and getting quality balls into the forwards hence the scoring increase.

The jury's out on this one. The scoring increase might also be explained by the opposition. Tipperary's and Waterford's scoring rate went up too when they met Dublin and Offaly.

Galway could very well of won it last year... I doubt Tipperary come through if Canning/Tuohy are swapped with Callanan/Barrett.

This is a sort of three-dimensional "if my Aunt had balls" argument. You might as well say "if Galway had John Connolly and Tipp had Pat Shortt Galway would have won". The result stands either way. Nobody is questioning that Galway is a good team but margins are likely to be fine in August/September. Galway looked quite possible winners at half-time in the 2015 final but were a point behind in the AI semi-final after 70 minutes. There are plenty of games Galway might have lost too if we imagine a parallel universe.

With last year in mind and the more settled spine to the team this year there's been a marked improvement in play and they're rightly favourites.
The rest have been dreadful in some shape or form, Cork haven't either but their blip is how real this improvement is given their form up until May.

I agree with the part in bold - to my mind they appear to be favourites in the basis of perceived weaknesses in others. My core argument is that this supposed "marked improvement" in play has been achieved against opposition which has been found wanting in other games too. As for the "settled spine" - let's call it as it is here: the Galway team that beat Wexford had 14 of the team that lost to Tipperary last year. A good team, but one with much to prove. Favourites maybe, but this clichstuff that people pick up from journalists such as "it's theirs to lose" is quite mad based on the evidence so far this year.

C__MC

Good draw for Tipp, if they shore up that back line, they have a great chance. Whelan and cooney are questionable on weather they can deliver when it's needed most. Tipp have a lot of firepower, far more then anyone left in it, it will come down to a shootout as to who can beat them.

mountgomery burns

gilberto_eire wrote: »

There's a few factors at play here.

Firstly 1B was a case of win two games and the league was over.
Wexford were hard at it all winter and had a warm up to the Galway game beating Limerick, despite that Galway had Wexford on the racks twice.. maybe it was fitness in the end as they just about reeled us in at the death.

Fast forward to league quarter finals, Waterford run ahead, it's not even that they're dominating but Galway are missing every chance they get, they click into gear and wipe Wateford out in the second half.

Play Limerick in Limerick, beat them by 10 points.
Beat Tipperary by 16 points.
Beat Dublin by 10 odd.
Score 30 times against Offaly.
And beat Wexford by 9.

In all the game this year against proper teams, Galway have broke the 20 score mark.
Including the lesser teams, that stat runs further.

The work rate of the players has been the big change, backs are clearing the ball under pressure.
That means the balls will go anywhere which makes it a backs ball.

Also on the flip side the backs are dominating and getting quality balls into the forwards hence the scoring increase.

Galway could very well of won it last year... I doubt Tipperary come through if Canning/Tuohy are swapped with Callanan/Barrett.

With last year in mind and the more settled spine to the team this year there's been a marked improvement in play and they're rightly favourites.

The rest have been dreadful in some shape or form, Cork haven't either but their blip is how real this improvement is given their form up until May.

I'd agree with some of your points in the latter half, but you have the usual Galway hat on for the first part.

Not that I think a league quarter final is that much of a pointer towards championship, but a Waterford B team fell 3 points short of beating Galway on their home ground. So to portray that as a "blitz" by Galway is hard to credit.

Wexford also beat them on their own ground, yet you only mention home advantage when it comes to Galway beatIng Limerick, the worst team in Munster. To be fair, Tipp and Waterford have beaten Galways opponents this year with pretty much the same level of comfort. I don't have any issue with Galway being favourites but it will be far from straight forward.

PTH2009

Semi Final Ticket Information:
Cusack/Davin Stand Adult: €45.00
Cusack/Davin Stand Juvenile: €5.00
Concessions: Purchase full price Cusack / Davin Stand tickets and you can claim a rebate of €10 when you produce appropriate I.D. at Block D, Stiles 1 to 5 in the Cusack Stand (Rebate can only be claimed on entry into the stadium via Block BLOCK D prior to ENTERING THE STADIUM)

Hogan Stand (No Concession): €45.00
Terrace (No Concession): €30.00
NO CONCESSIONS or JUVENILE TICKETS in the Hogan Stand.

how come the OAP/Students in the hogan stand dont get concessions ???

not exactly cheap but there AI semi finals at the end of the day. Id Say they will be €40 for Season ticket holders and be in the cusack lower

markreal

Great that the Hurling Championship has delivered to the last four what are probably the four best counties on current form.

PhiliousPhogg

Best available tickets for the Galway Tipp game are currently in the corners of the lower levels. It was the same this morning, you couldn't get a seat in the middle third of the pitch. Better off waiting till they open up the upper tiers and then get seats in the middle third of the pitch. It's worked for me before.

It's not very fair the way they do that when they're selling for the semi-finals. They are just packing up the lower levels first even though there are much better seats on the upper tiers. I'd say a lot of people are now blindly buying seats in the corners where you only end up looking at the screen for action down the far end. Also with the system on the website you pick a stand (Lwr Hogan/Lwr Cusack) and you are given your ticket allocation with no choice for a higher or lower row. I got a row F allocation this morning (which I didn't purchase) which AFAIK is the 6th row from the sideline. You can barely make out any action at the far end of the field when you're that low. On the website they should show not only the section but how low or high the row is, and even a photo perspective would be useful too. Don't get me wrong, there is not a bad seat in the stadium, and someone will probably reply now telling me that pitchside is better etc, but pity they don't give the fans a better choice for 45 quid a head.

Gaillimh 4 Liam

Realt Dearg Sec

Pitchside, if you are too near one end, is dire. If the ball is at the far end of the field but on your own side of it, you literally can't see what's happening. Was there a few years ago and would have seen more on TV.

zetecescort

try ticketmaster. lets you pick your seat and row (still crap at the moment)

donnem33

PTH2009 wrote: »

Semi Final Ticket Information:
Cusack/Davin Stand Adult: €45.00
Cusack/Davin Stand Juvenile: €5.00
Concessions: Purchase full price Cusack / Davin Stand tickets and you can claim a rebate of €10 when you produce appropriate I.D. at Block D, Stiles 1 to 5 in the Cusack Stand (Rebate can only be claimed on entry into the stadium via Block BLOCK D prior to ENTERING THE STADIUM)

Hogan Stand (No Concession): €45.00
Terrace (No Concession): €30.00
NO CONCESSIONS or JUVENILE TICKETS in the Hogan Stand.

how come the OAP/Students in the hogan stand dont get concessions ???

not exactly cheap but there AI semi finals at the end of the day. Id Say they will be €40 for Season ticket holders and be in the cusack lower

Because its the best stand to watch a game from - on a hot sunny day the sun is shining on your back and not on your face like it is in the cusask stand

Mac_Lad71

Bought two Lower Cusack tickets section 308 row M from tickets.ie for 45e each for the Cork v Waterford game. I didn't get to choose my seats but as they were two together and I'm going with my wife I took them. Plus I'm a third level student (mature) so I can claim the student rebate on my ticket. 90e is a bit steep but as Cork are in the minor match there will be two games we have an interest in.

Morrison J

Davy Fitz interview on newstalk tonight was a decent listen.

The fair point was made how all pundits are anti the sweeper yet they never actually analyse it's effectiveness properly. They find what they want to see (it failing) yet when it works the clips go missing.

Deiseen

Morrison J wrote: »

Davy Fitz interview on newstalk tonight was a decent listen.

The fair point was made how all pundits are anti the sweeper yet they never actually analyse it's effectiveness properly. They find what they want to see (it failing) yet when it works the clips go missing.

They also act like there was never a bad game of hurling before teams began using an extra defender. I remember seeing plenty of dog****e conventional 15 on 15 games.

Morrison J

Deiseen wrote: »

Morrison J wrote: »

Davy Fitz interview on newstalk tonight was a decent listen.

The fair point was made how all pundits are anti the sweeper yet they never actually analyse it's effectiveness properly. They find what they want to see (it failing) yet when it works the clips go missing.

They also act like there was never a bad game of hurling before teams began using an extra defender. I remember seeing plenty of dog****e conventional 15 on 15 games.

Yep Davy alluded to that as well. Galway stacked their own half in the Leinster final and Wexford couldn't break it down. Just because there isn't a fancy name for the system doesn't make it any less negative. Negative hurling isn't anything new.

As always GAA is too stuck in its ways and unwilling to move on from its roots. Tactically the game is evolving in a way that's making the weaker teams more competitive than ever. People should be seeing the positive in that fact.

Robson99

Morrison J wrote: »

Yep Davy alluded to that as well. Galway stacked their own half in the Leinster final and Wexford couldn't break it down.

Galway ended up with a sweeper by default. Wexford dropped a man back so it left Galway with an extra back. Galway weren't chasing the game so they had no need to push him up.
If one team plays a sweeper then the other will end up playing it or else the forward line becomes a cluster ****

Morrison J

Robson99 wrote: »

Morrison J wrote: »

Yep Davy alluded to that as well. Galway stacked their own half in the Leinster final and Wexford couldn't break it down.

Galway ended up with a sweeper by default. Wexford dropped a man back so it left Galway with an extra back. Galway weren't chasing the game so they had no need to push him up.
If one team plays a sweeper then the other will end up playing it or else the forward line becomes a cluster ****

Wasn't the sweeper though. It was Joe Canning etc dropping back to his own half back line and completely stacking that half of the field. Meant Wexford couldn't play the short game and they were getting cleared out in the air.

Robson99

Morrison J wrote: »

Wasn't the sweeper though. It was Joe Canning etc dropping back to his own half back line and completely stacking that half of the field. Meant Wexford couldn't play the short game and they were getting cleared out in the air.

Ya fair point he did drop very deep but I think Wexford had a game plan for him pulling the strings in the half forward line. When he dropped the 30 yds deeper they didn't know what to do.
Cant see Galway or Tipp playing a sweeper but I might be wrong

Morrison J

Robson99 wrote: »

Morrison J wrote: »

Wasn't the sweeper though. It was Joe Canning etc dropping back to his own half back line and completely stacking that half of the field. Meant Wexford couldn't play the short game and they were getting cleared out in the air.

Ya fair point he did drop very deep but I think Wexford had a game plan for him pulling the strings in the half forward line. When he dropped the 30 yds deeper they didn't know what to do.
Cant see Galway or Tipp playing a sweeper but I might be wrong

Yeah it was 100% effective and the right thing for Galway to do. It's still negative though and really no less negative than playing a sweeper yet the media don't even mention it. I'm all for teams doing what they see put in order to give themselves the best chance of winning games but if the panel on RTE are so anti negative tactics they can't only criticise when they feel like it. Double standards really.

Powerhouse

Morrison J wrote: »

As always GAA is too stuck in its ways and unwilling to move on from its roots. Tactically the game is evolving in a way that's making the weaker teams more competitive than ever. People should be seeing the positive in that fact.

People might see a positive in it if it were true. The reality is that this has been the most uncompetitive decade in the history of the sport. You have to go back owner a century to find a decade when as few different teams reached an All Ireland Final as in this one. And teams are being beaten with a level of savagery never before seen e.g look at the fortunes of weaker counties like Dublin, Offaly, Laois and the trouncing so they've had. The sweeper system might have made Waterford more competitive (though that's debatable as they did just as well in the 2000s without any sweeper) but the idea that tactical evolution is bring weaker counties great achievements is delusional. All the evidence suggests the strong have gotten stronger. It's fine being a brave champion of a new modern world of tactics and strategy so but imagining that this has created some socialist hurling utopia where the weak have uprisen is taking things too far. As a broad principle teams seem to use the sweeper when they are not good enough to go orthodox.

PTH2009

One thing Davy does is never change the pre match warm up routines for his teams

Yesterday Wexford performed thd Exact same warm ups he done with Waterford and Clare. Ending with the 'squaded sincr shoulder charging move'

Robson99

Morrison J wrote: »

Yeah it was 100% effective and the right thing for Galway to do. It's still negative though and really no less negative than playing a sweeper yet the media don't even mention it. I'm all for teams doing what they see put in order to give themselves the best chance of winning games but if the panel on RTE are so anti negative tactics they can't only criticise when they feel like it. Double standards really.

The thing is though Galway were intelligent with the use of the ball into the forward line coupled with the fact that Wexford are an average team.
Good teams will find a way to beat the orthodox sweeper system.
On the subject of clogging the half back line I think it was one of Kilkennys strengths over the years the way their two midfielders could drop back an litterly make it 5 . Serious workrate and created a lot of space for their forwards when they won the ball back

Morrison J

Powerhouse wrote: »

Morrison J wrote: »

As always GAA is too stuck in its ways and unwilling to move on from its roots. Tactically the game is evolving in a way that's making the weaker teams more competitive than ever. People should be seeing the positive in that fact.

People might see a positive in it if it were true. The reality is that this has been the most uncompetitive decade in the history of the sport. You have to go back owner a century to find a decade when as few different teams reached an All Ireland Final as in this one. And teams are being beaten with a level of savagery never before seen e.g look at the fortunes of weaker counties like Dublin, Offaly, Laois and the trouncing so they've had. The sweeper system might have made Waterford more competitive (though that's debatable as they did just as well in the 2000s without any sweeper) but the idea that tactical evolution is bring weaker counties great achievements is delusional. All the evidence suggests the strong have gotten stronger. It's fine being a brave champion of a new modern world of tactics and strategy so but imagining that this has created some socialist hurling utopia where the weak have uprisen is taking things too far. As a broad principle teams seem to use the sweeper when they are not good enough to go orthodox.

Yes but the uncompetitive nature of the sport has absolutely zero to do with tactics it's all to do with better talent coming through in particular counties.

The sweeper system can allow a Wexford or Waterford who have clear deficiencys in key positions, to be competitive against the more talent rich teams which is a positive thing. Anyone who thinks Wexford would have achieved more this year trying to win through winning their individual battles lining up 15 v 15 is living in dreamland.

C__MC

Hurling is definitely evolving like other sports. Every soccer team Can't go out and play like Madrid or Barca. It's horses for courses. Kilkenny often dropped men back when they were in trouble, wasn't a word about it. I'm not a fan of it but it's here to stay, will Waterford fans give a damn if it brings them the holy grail?
Agree with a statement above, the strong are getting stronger each year- some counties have fallen way back limerick, Dublin etc.

I have to say it's been a damn poor hurling championship, Both quater finals lacked any really intensity as did munster and Leinster finals. Hurling often gets the rub of the green in the media in comparison to bad football games but there have been some woeful hurling games this year.

Powerhouse

Morrison J wrote: »

Yes but the uncompetitive nature of the sport has absolutely zero to do with tactics it's all to do with better talent coming through in particular counties.

The sweeper system can allow a Wexford or Waterford who have clear deficiencys in key positions, to be competitive against the more talent rich teams which is a positive thing. Anyone who thinks Wexford would have achieved more this year trying to win through winning their individual battles lining up 15 v 15 is living in dreamland.

I wasn't really aware Waterford were still being called a weaker county but so be it. That said it is arguable that Waterford and Wexford beat Kilkenny this year because Kilkenny are in relative decline rather than through any great tactical coup.

Powerhouse

[QUOTE=C__MC;104179392

I'm not a fan of it but it's here to stay, will Waterford fans give a damn if it brings them the holy grail?

r.[/QUOTE]

But it won't bring them the holy grail. They simply won't be able to score enough under that system. In their last five matches in Munster finals and All Ireland semi finals they lost every game, only once reached 20 points, and hit the net in only one of the five matches. Very difficult to achieve a holy grail with that system.

HurlingRanker

I don't disagree with what Davy is saying but at the same time he's only trying to deflect from the fact they lost. Was strange to have a pop at Shefflin and Duignan after the game. Every now and then he'll let on that he doesn't care what people say and they are entitled to their opinions, laughable, the man is obsessed.

I'm also finding McGrath's comments strange/funny, the whole "None of the other teams left will fear Waterford" line he's trying to spin out. They've comfortably been top 3/4 in the last 3 years, made the semi finals the last 3 years, won a league title, and one bad game v Tipp aside they have been a serious outfit the last few years. What are they so afraid of? Noel Connors even reckoned Wexford were favourites at the weekend, are we therefore supposed to believe Waterford's win at the weekend was some kind of upset? Not a hope, not buying it.

I don't think it's fair to have Galway such outrageous favourites, it's wide open, I don't think any combination of results would be a surprise from here on out.

HurlingRanker

One other thing on Waterford, the focus on their tactics irritates me. When it works (and far more often than not it does), a lot of people whinge about it, say that it's not real hurling, give them no credit and moan about sweepers and the like.

If it doesn't work, they get pilloried, a smug sense of satisfaction prevails, it's ugly and was very evident after the Munster final last year.

Win or lose, people are going to knock them.