All Ireland SHC Final (formerly SHC thread) - READ MOD NOTE POST #1

BonnieSituation

HurlingRanker wrote: »

One other thing on Waterford, the focus on their tactics irritates me. When it works (and far more often than not it does), a lot of people whinge about it, say that it's not real hurling, give them no credit and moan about sweepers and the like.

If it doesn't work, they get pilloried, a smug sense of satisfaction prevails, it's ugly and was very evident after the Munster final last year.

Win or lose, people are going to knock them.

And yet we got two absolute classics last year v KK in the SFs. Did they go orthodox then?

robbiezero

HurlingRanker wrote: »

One other thing on Waterford, the focus on their tactics irritates me. When it works (and far more often than not it does), a lot of people whinge about it, say that it's not real hurling, give them no credit and moan about sweepers and the like.

If it doesn't work, they get pilloried, a smug sense of satisfaction prevails, it's ugly and was very evident after the Munster final last year.

Win or lose, people are going to knock them.

Is that really the case? Not saying it isn't, but I wouldn't necessarily say it has worked either. Have they had any really good championship wins in McGraths tenure or have they just won games where they would have been expected to win anyway.
If they don't beat Cork, in my view, his period as a manager will have been a failure.

Django99

BonnieSituation wrote: »

And yet we got two absolute classics last year v KK in the SFs. Did they go orthodox then?

No they didn't, even though a lot of people convinced themselves they did (including paid pundits) De Burca has played the sweeper role in virtually every Waterford match since the beginning of 2015 if memory serves correct.

But because they were close games then it was ok what they were doing, it's only when they win comfortably or lose badly that the sweeper is killing the game.

robbiezero

Django99 wrote: »

No they didn't, even though a lot of people convinced themselves they did (including paid pundits) De Burca has played the sweeper role in virtually every Waterford match since the beginning of 2015 if memory serves correct.

But because they were close games then it was ok what they were doing, it's only when they win comfortably or lose badly that the sweeper is killing the game.

They pushed up a lot more than they had in previous games that year, but yes De Burca dropped deep as usual. In the replay like Tipp had done in the Munster final, Kilkenny went after him with Michael Fennelly and that paid off quite well for them and reduced his influence.
I'm not that bothered by Waterfords style, but I can't see them winning the All-Ireland playing that way.

Django99

robbiezero wrote: »

They pushed up a lot more than they had in previous games that year, but yes De Burca dropped deep as usual. In the replay like Tipp had done in the Munster final, Kilkenny went after him with Michael Fennelly and that paid off quite well for them and reduced his influence.
I'm not that bothered by Waterfords style, but I can't see them winning the All-Ireland playing that way.

That's true they did, but according to Duignan dropping players back isn't a problem, it's just the sweeper. I'm more making the comment that the anyalsis by media is embarrassing seeing as they don't actually know what they are criticising, rather than saying whether Waterfords system is good or bad.


For what it's worth, I don't think you can say that a team can't win the All Ireland playing a particular style. If it can win one game, two games it can win any game.

robbiezero

Django99 wrote: »

That's true they did, but according to Duignan dropping players back isn't a problem, it's just the sweeper. I'm more making the comment that the anyalsis by media is embarrassing seeing as they don't actually know what they are criticising, rather than saying whether Waterfords system is good or bad.


For what it's worth, I don't think you can say that a team can't win the All Ireland playing a particular style. If it can win one game, two games it can win any game.

They have yet to win a game against top opposition playing that style, and I don't think they have the scoring power while dropping so deep to beat the top teams.
I could be wrong though, we will soon see.

Django99

robbiezero wrote: »

They have yet to win a game against top opposition playing that style, and I don't think they have the scoring power while dropping so deep to beat the top teams.
I could be wrong though, we will soon see.

Yeah you could possibly be right, although I would say that KK were still a top team last year and it was inches away from being enough to beat them.

Still, I'm sure they're happier to be in 3 semi finals in a row playing this style than being knocked out in quarter finals and qualifiers playing the way they did in the previous 3 years.

dastardly00

My main gripe with the 'sweeper system' is when a team is behind and chasing the game and they still employ a sweeper and a one/two man full-forward line.

Correct if I am wrong but Wexford still had a sweeper against Waterford after De Burca got sent off and during the closing stages of the game. How did they think they were ever going to reduce the deficit and win?

Another match that comes to mind is the 2015 AI semi-final KK vs Waterford. Waterford were losing, but they had poor Maurice Shanahan on the edge of the square all on his own, marked by Joey Holden and one of the other corner backs. Shanahan didn't have a hope. Even if he won the ball he wouldn't have had any support. Best case scenario was a free/penalty. It continued like that until the end of the game. Ball after ball driven down to Shanahan and then cleared by KK.

The equivalent in soccer would be if you are goal behind with 10 minutes left and keep just one man up front on his own.

BonnieSituation

Django99 wrote: »

No they didn't, even though a lot of people convinced themselves they did (including paid pundits) De Burca has played the sweeper role in virtually every Waterford match since the beginning of 2015 if memory serves correct.

But because they were close games then it was ok what they were doing, it's only when they win comfortably or lose badly that the sweeper is killing the game.

And this is what gets me. We got served up two games for the ages and the criticism of the sweeper system is no where to be seen.

It's the same with football. You have criticism for the sake of criticism and absolutely no analysis to back it up.

Django99 wrote: »

Yeah you could possibly be right, although I would say that KK were still a top team last year and it was inches away from being enough to beat them.

Still, I'm sure they're happier to be in 3 semi finals in a row playing this style than being knocked out in quarter finals and qualifiers playing the way they did in the previous 3 years.

The thing about WD though last year was that they had that KK hex on them. If they hurled the way they did in the first game I think they would have hammered Galway and most likely made amends v Tipp. (I know these fixtures weren't possible)

dastardly00 wrote: »

My main gripe with the 'sweeper system' is when a team is behind and chasing the game and they still employ a sweeper and a one/two man full-forward line.

That's not the system's fault. That's bad game management. But bad analysis decries the system as the problem as the "system".

Thank God for the lads in here!

robbiezero

BonnieSituation wrote: »

And this is what gets me. We got served up two games for the ages and the criticism of the sweeper system is no where to be seen.

It's the same with football. You have criticism for the sake of criticism and absolutely no analysis to back it up.




The thing about WD though last year was that they had that KK hex on them. If they hurled the way they did in the first game I think they would have hammered Galway and most likely made amends v Tipp. (I know these fixtures weren't possible)



That's not the system's fault. That's bad game management. But bad analysis decries the system as the problem as the "system".

Thank God for the lads in here!

Thats a fair stretch. Hammered Galway? Seriously?

dastardly00

BonnieSituation wrote: »

That's not the system's fault. That's bad game management.

Yeah that's a fair point actually.

BonnieSituation

robbiezero wrote: »

Thats a fair stretch. Hammered Galway? Seriously?

Perhaps.

I was gunning for WD to win the All Ireland.

danganabu

Morrison J wrote: »

Davy Fitz interview on newstalk tonight was a decent listen.

The fair point was made how all pundits are anti the sweeper yet they never actually analyse it's effectiveness properly. They find what they want to see (it failing) yet when it works the clips go missing.

Pundits are paid to offer their opinion, when they don't they are accused of sitting on the fence, when they do they are accused of having an agenda. No team has won the top prize or come close, playing the sweeper system and until such time as they do, if ever, then the analysis is valid. That doesn't suit Davy who has his own agenda but so be it.

For someone who repeatedly tells us all that he doesn't care what anyone else thinks he sure does a lot of complaining!

irelandrover

danganabu wrote: »

Pundits are paid to offer their opinion, when they don't they are accused of sitting on the fence, when they do they are accused of having an agenda. No team has won the top prize or come close, playing the sweeper system and until such time as they do, if ever, then the analysis is valid. That doesn't suit Davy who has his own agenda but so be it.

For someone who repeatedly tells us all that he doesn't care what anyone else thinks he sure does a lot of complaining!

Didnt Clare come very close in 2013 to winning the top prize while playing with a sweeper system?

Morrison J

danganabu wrote: »

Morrison J wrote: »

Davy Fitz interview on newstalk tonight was a decent listen.

The fair point was made how all pundits are anti the sweeper yet they never actually analyse it's effectiveness properly. They find what they want to see (it failing) yet when it works the clips go missing.

Pundits are paid to offer their opinion, when they don't they are accused of sitting on the fence, when they do they are accused of having an agenda. No team has won the top prize or come close, playing the sweeper system and until such time as they do, if ever, then the analysis is valid. That doesn't suit Davy who has his own agenda but so be it.

For someone who repeatedly tells us all that he doesn't care what anyone else thinks he sure does a lot of complaining!

That's a terrible way of looking at it though. The weaker teams use it in order to be competitive. You don't have to win the All Ireland to validate it's use. Wexford had their best year in over a decade this year. That's surely enough in itself to validate their use of it. They don't have the talent yet to win an All Ireland no matter what the system.

robbiezero

Morrison J wrote: »

That's a terrible way of looking at it though. The weaker teams use it in order to be competitive. You don't have to win the All Ireland to validate it's use. Wexford had their best year in over a decade this year. That's surely enough in itself to validate their use of it. They don't have the talent yet to win an All Ireland no matter what the system.

I'd have no problems with Wexford using it this year. Conor Cooney was effectively double marked v Wexford and went to town on them, can only imagine what would happen if it was 6 v 6 in the Wexford defence.
Wexford have progressed this year, but will certainly need to add far more in attack if they are to progress again next year.
Waterford is a different story, I think they do have to win the All-Ireland this year to validate its use. They have won nothing of note yet. 1 league is a poor return for quite a talented. Obviously its hard to judge whether they would be better with or without their defensive system, but my feeling is that it is not getting the best out of them.

danganabu

irelandrover wrote: »

Didnt Clare come very close in 2013 to winning the top prize while playing with a sweeper system?

Clare won the AI in 2013, they were not playing a game anyway as defensive as Wexford and Waterford are now, their game was built on taking the ball into contact and short passing off the shoulder. Despite what anyone might tell you, it was in relative terms a soft AI, Clare haven't won a game of note since.

Morrison J wrote: »

That's a terrible way of looking at it though. The weaker teams use it in order to be competitive. You don't have to win the All Ireland to validate it's use. Wexford had their best year in over a decade this year. That's surely enough in itself to validate their use of it. They don't have the talent yet to win an All Ireland no matter what the system.

I agree and have said in a previous post that if Wexford with there current set of defenders went 15 v 15 they would be murdered. Defensive set ups under certain parameters and in certain stages of a game are fine, but jaysus you have to try and win the bloody game at some stage. Moral defeats where the scoreline was kept respectable soon wear thin. Davy knows this and is already preparing for the backlash.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Moggy13 wrote: »

True..but if you're Tipp or Galway you're probably sick of playing each other or its just added motivation to win.

It will be interesting to see how Galway fare after layoff.

Should be no problem with motivation for both sides. Galway looking to avenge last year semi and make good on their favourites tag to win their first AI since 1988.
Tipp looking to avenge this years league final trimming.

Django99

danganabu wrote: »

Clare won the AI in 2013, they were not playing a game anyway as defensive as Wexford and Waterford are now, their game was built on taking the ball into contact and short passing off the shoulder. Despite what anyone might tell you, it was in relative terms a soft AI, Clare haven't won a game of note since.



I agree and have said in a previous post that if Wexford with there current set of defenders went 15 v 15 they would be murdered. Defensive set ups under certain parameters and in certain stages of a game are fine, but jaysus you have to try and win the bloody game at some stage. Moral defeats where the scoreline was kept respectable soon wear thin. Davy knows this and is already preparing for the backlash.

The simple fact is that Clare won the All Ireland in 2013 playing a sweeper, yet we have heard so many times in the past few weeks that no team will ever win playing a sweeper. Yes, their set up wasn't as defensive as Wexfords or Waterfords, but they had a sweeper.

So what people really mean is that Wexford and Waterford play a set up that is too defensive. However this doesn't take into account that many of the Wexford backs, and not just half backs, scored points for them this year. What they were really playing was an explosive defensive. Set up with numbers in their own half for opposition puck outs and when opposing backs had possession. This is what Kilkenny from 06-11 perfected, having enough men in their own half when the ball was coming down on them that they could swarm. Wexford do this to, although nowehere near as effectively as KK did.

The plan once they get possession back, is to find a free player wth a short pass. Here is where the difference between the old KK team and Wexford lies. KK would generally clear the ball as far and long as they could once they had a free possession in their own half. Because they had some incredible ball winners, and generally weren't playing against sweepers, this was very effective. Loads of space and a 50-50 ball that they could win.

When wexford get the ball, they try to run it out of defence. This is what leads to some of their backs scoring. They carry the ball into shooting range. They try to avoid the long clearance, because they are outnumbered in the forwards. They aren't confident of winning long direct ball, and who can blame them because when they do play it (under pressure) they lose the majority of them.

The sweeper system takes a long time to get right. It requires a good player to play the sweeper, someone who won't fumble the ball, someone who has good vision to play a good clearance.

The defensive system of drawing back half forwards and midfields into your own half is easier to get right, because a lot of the time it comes down to a numbers game regarding high balls and breaking balls. The key with this tactic is to bypass the opposition half back line. This system is what Kilkenny perfected for 5 years and even more, because they had some of the best players of all time, and it suited them.

To say that certain systems can't win all Ireland's, or to say a team should just go man to man (whatever that means), or to throw caution to the wind or whatever, makes no sense to me. A manager will try to develop a system which gets the best out of the players. It would be crazy to just abandon that system because you go a few points down, or because it's getting to the later stages of the championship and the opposition is improving.

I'm not trying to defend the sweeper system, because I do agree it has some flaws, just like any system does. I don't think it actually suits Wexford and the players they have particularly well, but it's a system Davy has used with almost every team he's had so I'm not surprised they use it. It suits Waterford quite well, apart from the fact that they let Gleeson roam wild when he is perfect to play a traditional centre forward role.

My point (or maybe rant) is that it's silly to just dismiss the idea of playing an extra defender and say it will never work.

danganabu

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Should be no problem with motivation for both sides. Galway looking to avenge last year semi and make good on their favourites tag to win their first AI since 1988.
Tipp looking to avenge this years league final trimming.

And we are still looking for revenge for 1988 no amount of water under the bridge will erase the 87-89 rivalry (I use the term rivalry very loosely)

danganabu

Django99 wrote: »

My point (or maybe rant) is that it's silly to just dismiss the idea of playing an extra defender and say it will never work.

I'm not, the simple fact is that what Wexford and Waterford do is not simply playing an extra defender, its far more defensive and negative than that. People lazily labeling every system that doesn't contain 6 forwards as a sweeper system is the problem here.

But take it back to what Davy was crying about and Duignan and Shefflin and co were merely saying what the huge majority, including significant numbers in both counties, are saying, its fcukin terrible to watch and will only take a team so far, it has to be evolved.

letowski

In my opinion, I think playing a defensive system can be used effectively to bring on the development of a team, Clare, Waterford and now Wexford have had degrees of success in using it. Davy can be justified in using an extra back as he doesnt have the talent in his back line. But ultimately I think a defensive system will always not bring a team to win the AI. It must be noted in the debate the Clare's AI win was not won by playing their sweeper all the way through 2013, they played Cork 15 on 15 in both finals and subsquently played their best hurling. They are however probably the only team to win an AI semi with a sweeper, but it must be noted also that it was against a Limerick side that gave one of the worst displays in a semi we have seen in the last 20 years at least.

In my opinion playing a defensive/sweeper system at the very high level at the end of the championship is fundamentally flawed. I think the best team that play a defensive system today, Waterford, will never win an AI with it. It just restrains the team too much coming into the last 10/15 minutes in pushing on and winning a game. When a defensive team is coming up towards the end of a game and they need to push on and close it out things get too difficult. To get scores they either have to hope their one or two players inside manufacture a point or free despite being double marked, or they need to score a long range point which again is difficult when players get tired. What is even worse than both those points, is that if they concede a goal they are in massive trouble as its nigh on impossible for a defensive team to score a goal in the last 15 minutes of a game (stats will resoundingly back this up). Waterford's draw to Kilkenny showed this in last years AI semi final. These teams are just left very vunerable.

It will be interesting to see can Waterford do it this year but for me they are the outsiders of the 4. Wexford had a reasonably good year this year but I dont see them winning Leinster or getting to an AI semi final, jmo. With regards watching games like the match on Sunday, I think tradionalists just miss the big moments and change in momentem in games. Sunday's match or say Clare v Waterford's match last year, or any sweeper on sweeper matches will always just peter out the the end as there are such few goals scored as both systems subdue each others most talented players.

seachto7

Lads and lassies. Ashamed to say I haven't been to Croker for years (I'm from Limerick!), and looking to bring an auld foreign lass to the Cork/Waterford game.

I'm going to try and stick to the main stands. Looking at tickets online, and it only seems to be the lower stands that are available and at this stage all in the corners, which is fair enough.
Will they likely release tickets for the upper stands?

Radiant Cool Crazy Nightmare

seachto7 wrote: »

Lads and lassies. Ashamed to say I haven't been to Croker for years (I'm from Limerick!), and looking to bring an auld foreign lass to the Cork/Waterford game.

I'm going to try and stick to the main stands. Looking at tickets online, and it only seems to be the lower stands that are available and at this stage all in the corners, which is fair enough.
Will they likely release tickets for the upper stands?

Im heading to the football this weekend and the hurling the weekend after(Galway). I only bought the football tickets yesterday and got fairly central upper level tickets. When they first came out it was the same as yourself that I could only purchase the lower level corner tickets. Id advise you to wait out for another while. You still have a lot of time before the game so just keep checking in once or twice a day and they will eventually open the upper tiers. There will be a big crowd there from Cork and Waterford so the upper levels will be open for sure.

seachto7

I'll hold off. I wouldn't mind trying to get tickets somewhere central enough in the ground.

puzl

seachto7 wrote: »

Lads and lassies. Ashamed to say I haven't been to Croker for years (I'm from Limerick!), and looking to bring an auld foreign lass to the Cork/Waterford game.

I'm going to try and stick to the main stands. Looking at tickets online, and it only seems to be the lower stands that are available and at this stage all in the corners, which is fair enough.
Will they likely release tickets for the upper stands?

Tickets start at the corners and work in. If you think the game won't sell out, then buy them on the day and you'll be able to chat to Varadker at half time.

Mantis Toboggan

The winners of the Galway tipp game will have to wait a full month for the final! Was that always the case?

puzl

Tyson Fury wrote: »

The winners of the Galway tipp game will have to wait a full month for the final! Was that always the case?

Pretty much yeah, depending on when the first sunday in september falls.

Dyr

TBH I enjoyed the Waterford-Wexford match, it was a lot more interesting to watch than most of the games that the purists rave about

Realt Dearg Sec

Tyson Fury wrote: »

The winners of the Galway tipp game will have to wait a full month for the final! Was that always the case?

It's absolutely crazy, there's no good reason why the inter county season is so spread out. You have teams routinely going four or five weeks with no matches. It's very hard as a follower of the sport to feel any sense of momentum building in the championship. After the qualifiers ended there were only five matches left in the championship, to be played out over two months. Who does this benefit exactly? For the players it just means weeks and weeks of more boring training, abstinence, and being away from families. For clubs it means months of sitting around doing nothing waiting for their season to get going. For fans it means a championship that never kicks into gear like other sports do. It's nuts.