2018 Leaf

Soarer

Casati wrote: »

Its amazing that on other threads most owners of EV's spend a lot of time convincing prospective EV buyers that current range isn't an issue and a 24kwh Lead should be perfect for their commute, but most of the posts about the new Leaf are concerned with range and charging time!

Is correct.

The 24kWh, and moreso the 30kWh Leaf currently suits most people.

The new one....
- looks better (subjective)
- more standard spec
- adds 40% more range
- adds 37% more horsepower
- adds 26% more torque
- adds quicker DC charging
- adds quicker AC charging

...and all for the same price as the current one!

My "problems" with it are...
It's changed from Type 1 to Type 2.
The current 30kWh Leaf would suit 95%+ of my driving. So should I try get a cheap (relatively) new one of them, even though the depreciation will be eye-watering, or get the Leaf 2, which would suit me 100%.

bk

unkel wrote: »

With the current (second) generation of EVs, that pain has largely gone away. Ioniq, Zoe 41, Leaf 2, eGolf can all do a significant range before needing a recharge. Donegal to Dublin in 1 stop. No charging every day on the commute. But I do agree that there is very little relevance going from 40kWh to 60kWh for 90% of the people. Even though most people think it is relevant to them

I'd call these cars gen 1.5.

In my mind the original Leaf was Gen 1, took two stops to get to Cork/Limerick/etc.

The Ioniq, Leaf 2 40kWh, etc. are Gen 1.5, they take one stop to get to Cork/Limerick/etc.

Gen 2 will be cars with 300km'ish at motorway speeds. Cork/Limerick/etc. with no stops.

Or if you prefer calling them Gen 1, 2 and 3.

I don't think people wanting to get between our cities without stopping is to much of an ask. It is only 2.5 hours max driving, not particularly large distances at all and similar to what you get from most cars tanks.

grogi

Soarer wrote: »

Is correct.

The 24kWh, and moreso the 30kWh Leaf currently suits most people.

The new one....
- looks better (subjective)
- more standard spec
- adds 40% more range
- adds 37% more horsepower
- adds 26% more torque
- adds quicker DC charging
- adds quicker AC charging

...and all for the same price as the current one!

My "problems" with it are...
It's changed from Type 1 to Type 2.
The current 30kWh Leaf would suit 95%+ of my driving. So should I try get a cheap (relatively) new one of them, even though the depreciation will be eye-watering, or get the Leaf 2, which would suit me 100%.

If you don't get bored with car you drive, just get a new one and forget about it. If you'd be bored after 6 months, get an older one and switch to something else.

goz83

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Ok so the new Leaf does look nice, I will give it that. THe issue I have is they announce a new model and at same launch announce a newer model. So why would I buy the new model? Why would I not just wait till the newer model is released?

If I bought the new model then the price would drop like a rock so why not wait till newer model comes out and pick up the 40kWh one on the cheap?

If you wait long enough, you'll be driving your car to Mars on nothing but happy thoughts. We all need to accept that for years to come, EV tech is going to have something new and desirable just around the corner. Buying and worrying about the next big thing and then crying into ones cornflakes over depreciation is no way to live. Buy what does the job and enjoy it.

I'll be hanging onto my 141 Leaf for a long while yet. The 12 Leaf I might look at upgrading if a good opportunity comes my way and it's affordable. For now, they are both serving us very well and Leaf 2 is just window licking for me.

unkel

bk wrote: »

I'd call these cars gen 1.5.

I don't think people wanting to get between our cities without stopping is to much of an ask.

In all of them you can travel between most of our cities without stopping. Just not between Cork and Dublin (unless you drive at silly low speeds of like 80-90km/h).

I'd be happy to call these cars gen 1.5 and the cars that can drive 250km at 120km/h gen 2. You'd need 55-60kWh to be gen 2 then though!

ELM327

bk wrote: »

I'd call these cars gen 1.5.

In my mind the original Leaf was Gen 1, took two stops to get to Cork/Limerick/etc.

The Ioniq, Leaf 2 40kWh, etc. are Gen 1.5, they take one stop to get to Cork/Limerick/etc.

Gen 2 will be cars with 300km'ish at motorway speeds. Cork/Limerick/etc. with no stops.

Or if you prefer calling them Gen 1, 2 and 3.

I don't think people wanting to get between our cities without stopping is to much of an ask. It is only 2.5 hours max driving, not particularly large distances at all and similar to what you get from most cars tanks.

I dont think 300km at motorway speed is even going to be possible in the next-most generation.

We had the old cars capable of 100-150km but less on motorways. I count my 24kWh leaf in that generation. I would estimate my realistic motorway range at 80-100km. These are the Gen1 cars
At the moment we have the ZE40/Ioniq/new leaf which will be able to do between 200-250km but not at motor way speeds. those are gen2 imo. The next step is 300-350km but not motorway speeds, these would be gen3. then the step after that - assuming linear progression - will be 350-450km non motorway and 300-350 motorway. Gen4.

thierry14

unkel wrote: »

In all of them you can travel between most of our cities without stopping. Just not between Cork and Dublin (unless you drive at silly low speeds of like 80-90km/h).

I'd be happy to call these cars gen 1.5 and the cars that can drive 250km at 120km/h gen 2. You'd need 55-60kWh to be gen 2 then though!

Will Leaf 2018 do Limerick to Dublin without stopping?

If the Ioniq can't manage it, I have my doubts

bk

ELM327 wrote: »

The next step is 300-350km but not motorway speeds, these would be gen3.

But if they can do 300 - 350km, then I assume they could do 250km at motorway speeds? That is the distance to Cork for instance.

ELM327

thierry14 wrote: »

Will Leaf 2018 do Limerick to Dublin without stopping?

If the Ioniq can't manage it, I have my doubts

It's 204km as per google maps.
I think (based on the released propoganda anyway) that it should do it.
I would also believe that the Ioniq would do it. Any Ioniq owners on here to confirm/deny?

The ZE40 Zoe would do it easily.

unkel

thierry14 wrote: »

Will Leaf 2018 do Limerick to Dublin without stopping?

If the Ioniq can't manage it, I have my doubts

All gen 1.5 cars can do the likes of Limerick to Dublin (about 200km) in one charge, but still not at 120km/h. But close enough.

ELM327

bk wrote: »

But if they can do 300 - 350km, then I assume they could do 250km at motorway speeds? That is the distance to Cork for instance.

Yes that would be my assumption aswell.

Dublin to cork - but then what? Destination charging? charge on DC in cork? It's still one stop.

thierry14

Casati wrote: »

My guess is that they are doing a Tesla on it and will seriously charge you if you want the 60kWh versus the 40kWh. car companies have been charging a lot more for big engine options forever and they will charge a lot more for bigger range electric cars.

Its amazing that on other threads most owners of EV's spend a lot of time convincing prospective EV buyers that current range isn't an issue and a 24kwh Lead should be perfect for their commute, but most of the posts about the new Leaf are concerned with range and charging time!

Why aren't you taking about 0-100kmph, mid range acceleration, handling, ride, legroom, boot space and indeed styling

60Kwh Leaf is a waste of time if it's price is well over 30k

It's into Tesla, BMW territory then and they will have massively superior cars, not an Eco box

For 25k, 150bhp, 250km range Leaf 2018 is very competitive

As Unkel highlighted the other day most of us rarely put more than 20e diesel in the car, that will do max 250km in my diesel car

Probably get more range from the new Leaf with the same careful driving

With 150bhp and over 300nm on tap all the time, I reckon the new Leaf will be great fun to drive, very nippy, overtaking should be enjoyable

Equivalent 150bhp 2.0TDi's have brilliant overtaking/mid range grunt and I'm expecting electric 150bhp to be even better

Just hope the sales man let's me out on my own for his sake

How big is this Leaf?

Wife reckons it looks small, but I think it's Golf, Focus, Auris size for space in back seats/boot

unkel

There's only one step left for you, thierry14. Go and organise some 24h test drives in some of these cars. Get the wife (and children?) on board and see if it is for you. I bought my Ioniq the day after my 24h test drive

bk

ELM327 wrote: »

Dublin to cork - but then what? Destination charging? charge on DC in cork? It's still one stop.

For me, it would be destination charging.

I suspect it would be for most people. If you are travelling that distance, you are likely to be staying over night. I would doubt many would return the same day.

Of course not good enough for a travelling sales person, but probably good enough for most people. It means you aren't totally reliant on the FCP network.

thelikelylad

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes that would be my assumption aswell.

Dublin to cork - but then what? Destination charging? charge on DC in cork? It's still one stop.

Not that it's not relatively easy right now but "Gen 2" cars should make a return trip very easy.

Right now in the IONIQ a return trip to Dublin for me takes 1xFCP stop on the way up, 1xSCP destination charge in Dublin (to be safe) and 1xFCP stop on the way down.

With a "Gen 2" car I'm hoping to be able to do a return leg with one destination charge in Dublin while I spend a couple of hours or a night there.

thierry14

ELM327 wrote: »

It's 204km as per google maps.
I think (based on the released propoganda anyway) that it should do it.
I would also believe that the Ioniq would do it. Any Ioniq owners on here to confirm/deny?

The ZE40 Zoe would do it easily.

Maybe at 100kmh

At motorway speeds in summer I don't think any of them would do 204km

In winter in the rain, not a hope

BK gen 1, 1.5, 2 is pretty accurate

Travelling between cities at motorway speeds requires gen 2 of 2020 ( 50Kw Ioniq, Model 3, 60kw Leaf etc)

Would only be a few times a year I would travel between cities, so can stop and charge. Not a huge deal

unkel

bk wrote: »

Of course not good enough for a travelling sales person

For a travelling salesperson, not even the longest range Tesla is going to cut it with him being used to getting 1000km range out of his diesel

thierry14

unkel wrote: »

There's only one step left for you, thierry14. Go and organise some 24h test drives in some of these cars. Get the wife (and children?) on board and see if it is for you. I bought my Ioniq the day after my 24h test drive

That day is soon

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

That's precisely what I am saying.
Perhaps your home DC charging will have its own separate metered connection to the grid and can take 13kW for itself. Perhaps (shhhhh) that's how motor taxation for home charging will be implemented.

You may not need to charge faster than 6.6. But people dont need to drive 200-400km per day either, yet that is part of the demand for an EV. It's a want not a need. Up to now, people are not buying EV until the wants as well as the needs are met.

I don't see an EV in 10-15-20 years even being fitted with an AC charger.
Like how nowadays you can't buy a combined betamax/vhs player, or even really a combined DVD/VHS. One standard always prevails.

It could be argued that DVD is on the way out aswell.

Fair enough. Maybe it will all be DC charging but I'd still say you will be disappointed in 10yrs time if you think that every house will be charging faster than 7kW, since you consider it very slow today. It will also make EVSE install a lot more expensive as you will have to have your own inverter.

However, the limitation will still be what the grid can provide. Another meter won't help that. If you want 11-22kW charging at home it requires an upgrade (transformer, 3-phase etc) which costs thousands. I just can't foresee that being common in 10yrs. The want/need argument will be quickly solved when people get an ESB upgrade quote!


I don't think 7kW is an arbitrary figure. Its used to ensure that there is still some headroom to run the rest of your house/appliances and fits perfectly for overnight charging of even the larger range EV's.

thierry14

unkel wrote: »

For a travelling salesperson, not even the longest range Tesla is going to cut it with him being used to getting 1000km range out of his diesel

Free diesel too

If fuel was free/almost would you drive an EV?

Don't think I would

KCross

unkel wrote: »

For a travelling salesperson, not even the longest range Tesla is going to cut it with him being used to getting 1000km range out of his diesel

Maybe Hydrogen for them!

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Fair enough. Maybe it will all be DC charging but I'd still say you will be disappointed in 10yrs time if you think that every house will be charging faster than 7kW, since you consider it very slow today. It will also make EVSE install a lot more expensive as you will have to have your own inverter.

However, the limitation will still be what the grid can provide. Another meter won't help that. If you want 11-22kW charging at home it requires an upgrade (transformer, 3-phase etc) which costs thousands. I just can't foresee that being common in 10yrs. The want/need argument will be quickly solved when people get an ESB upgrade quote!


I don't think 7kW is an arbitrary figure. Its used to ensure that there is still some headroom to run the rest of your house/appliances and fits perfectly for overnight charging of even the larger range EV's.

I understand the grid limitation, but a separate metered connection for your DC home charger allows you to take the full ~11kW for the car. No one is talking about 22kW at home.

People equate DC charging to high speed, that's what it is mostly now, but there's no reason it can't change and supply low speed.

As I say, the only reason AC even exists in the EV world at all is because currently it is (a) ubiquitous and (b) cheaper right now to install.

DC in the long term will be cheaper due to economies of scale. I can buy a 10kW home DC charger for €4k at the moment. They are not readily available for mass market but some germans have started selling them for AC to CCS, a chademo equivalent is also available from China. I can install a slower 6kW AC unit for probably 10% of that cost. But if I have a 60/80/100kWh battery (or two EV) then perhaps charging faster is more important.

josip

thierry14 wrote: »

...
As Unkel highlighted the other day most of us rarely put more than 20e diesel in the car, that will do max 250km in my diesel car
...

I must be an exception then, drive 800km, refill, drive 800km, refill,...

thelikelylad

thierry14 wrote: »

Free diesel too

If fuel was free/almost would you drive an EV?

Don't think I would

Oh yeah definitely. For me you can't beat the smooth drive, instant torque, pre-conditioned cabin etc etc. I never want to go back to days of sitting in traffic with a 2.2litre diesel rumbling away or doing oil changes or any of that business.

thierry14

josip wrote: »

I must be an exception then, drive 800km, refill, drive 800km, refill,...

I'd say you are

From my observations most people put in 10/20s at a go

ELM327

thierry14 wrote: »

Free diesel too

If fuel was free/almost would you drive an EV?

Don't think I would

If I could legally run a 2014 car on WVO or green diesel then of course I would! unfortunately it's not. WVO you need to pay duties to use after a certain number of miles, and green is obviously very illegal with huge fines if caught.

who_ru

I read on this thread a while back the the new Leaf will cost €25k, is there any confirmation of this officially?

ELM327

josip wrote: »

I must be an exception then, drive 800km, refill, drive 800km, refill,...

I fill up brim the neck, till I can see the fuel at the top!
Cost me €75 the last time I brimmed the tank and that was with a quarter left. I regularly get over 1000km from a tank of fuel. I just don't drive the diesel for anything much these days unless really needed.

unkel

josip wrote: »

I must be an exception then, drive 800km, refill, drive 800km, refill,...

In this country you are! In most of the rest of Europe, most people fill up the tank every time until it is full. And top up when empty. Just like you.

From my personal observations over the past 25 years or so, the most common fill up in Ireland used to be £20 in the 90s, then it went straight to €50 when the Euro was introduced in the early 00s. And back down to €20 during the recession.

thierry14

ELM327 wrote: »

I've owned a mark4 golf 150bhp.
The leaf is quicker off the line but between 35 and 45km/h the golf will be alongside and the leaf will be trailing in the dust and smoke by 60.


Regarding acceleration the leaf is quicker for the first second (certainly feels it) but once the TDI turbo kicks in (in a 150bhp) it's away. A 90bhp passat or SDI golf would be slower by some margin at 100km/h and below.

I have never driven an i3 but Mad Lad has driven both an i3 and a leaf and from memory said the i3 was much faster.

Again these are all my opinions having owned the cars in question. I am aware it is subjective and far from empirical.

How would the new 150bhp Leaf do against a 150bhp 2.0TDi Golf I imagine

When my colleague bought his gen 1 Leaf the dealer said compare it's performance to a regular 1.6 petrol, fair enough I suppose

Gen 2 is surely now comparable to 2.0 TDi which is a massive improvement ( not many 2.0 petrols around)

In the image below it's says Leaf 2 makes 147bhp between 3k and 9k revs

Does that mean it has full bhp over that long rev range? Or am I wrong?

3k rev in a single gear box i Imagine is about 40kmh and 9k 140kmh?

So does it have full bhp on tap between 40kmh - 140kmh?

Diesels and petrols don't work like that? They only have between say 5k-7k/3k-4k revs and then change gear and repeat

[IMG][/img]https://ibb.co/cuHT3a