2018 Leaf

thelikelylad

Soarer wrote: »

At what price?

No idea. If the ~50kWh Kona is rumored to come in at €35k then surely €30-32k (-€4k for unkel :P) would be realistic? At €30k it's not far off the current price for the 28kWh. Even if they come out with a 40kWh battery my guess is it will still pip the Leaf 2 range but I could be wrong. Not Leaf bashing or anything but I think waiting is a wise move and it won't cost you anything to wait, if you're already driving an EV.

grogi

thelikelylad wrote: »

No idea. If the ~50kWh Kona is rumored to come in at €35k then surely €30-32k (-€4k for unkel :P) would be realistic? At €30k it's not far off the current price for the 28kWh. Even if they come out with a 40kWh battery my guess is it will still pip the Leaf 2 range but I could be wrong. Not Leaf bashing or anything but I think waiting is a wise move and it won't cost you anything to wait, if you're already driving an EV.

Kona will cash on the SUV market, cannot imagine it will be comparable in price to Ioniq. €35k will come with the basic 30/28kWh battery, while the bigger one will demand a bigger payment.

thelikelylad

grogi wrote: »

Kona will cash on the SUV market, cannot imagine it will be comparable in price to Ioniq. €35k will come with the basic 30/28kWh battery, while the bigger one will demand a bigger payment.

Well if the entry level 1.0 petrol Kona is expected to come in at under €17k in the UK, then I can't imagine how they expect people to pay ~€20k extra for a 28kWh EV version.

The only thing I would worry about is supply. If Hyundai are struggling to churn out 28kWh Ioniq's then they surely will struggle with ~40kWh Ioniq's, let alone the 50kWh Kona.

CFC007

How are Nissan to deal with regarding scrappage. An extra €4K off the new leaf would be ideal. I know a good few on here were able to get the scrappage from Hyundai without the required NCT etc.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

The Leaf has had a few tests that show it at 9.4-10.4secs to 96kmh

https://www.0-60specs.com/nissan-leaf-0-60-times/

Ioniq is 8.1s according to that site

DrPhilG

DrPhilG wrote: »

Ioniq "gen 2" then.

When the Ioniq was released they said themselves that they hoped to have an upgraded option by 2018 to offer 200 miles range.

Won't be gen II just Gen I with new battery.

ewj1978

unkel wrote: »

Have to reserve judgment, pending pricing here in Ireland and range / aerodynamics and it's unfortunate it's the now obsolete chademo charging, but it looks decent and should have nice &quick acceleration Hope the speed limiter is set a bit higher than 144km/h this time...

Speed limiter? Must be off on mine..

unkel

All EVs have speed limiters. If the Leaf I didn't have one, it would probably do about 190km/h* at max power (80kW) and the battery (24kWh) would be depleted in 24/80 hours, or 18 minutes. In those 18 minutes the car would have gone from 100% full to completely empty in just 18/60 * 190 = 57km max range

*that's just a guess, but similar size ICE cars with similar power and a similar coefficient of drag would have an unlimited top speed of 190km/h or thereabouts

ewj1978

Pretty sure we've had this discussion before.. I've maybe seen 163 on my leaf with 5 adults onboard. Hence my speed limiter question.

grogi

KCross wrote: »

I'd take 8secs though and, as Mad_Lad says, more even spread of the power upto 120km/h.

I've found a power curve for a Leaf.



There are more at http://www.leaftalk.co.uk/showthread.php/15539-My-Leaf-on-a-Dyno-(Rolling-Road), but I cannot register atm...

Similarly story for a Tesla...




It would looks the power is limited by the battery. The torque, after initial spike, goes down to maintain the same power.
Because of that the Leaf might feel restrained - it lacks that umphs experienced at low speed. It is however not less powerful than a 110 bhp ICE car and will accelerate equally (if not better - who drives the ICE near max power?) at any speed.

So if the new Leaf comes with 150 bhp drivetrain, it will feel more powerful mid-high speed than the current one. But it will still feel weaker than around 30 km/h.

unkel

You can clearly see the speed limiter kicking in at about 89mph (143km/h) in that first graph

@ewj1978 - the indicated speed of any car is usually higher than the real speed. Legally it can be up to 10% + 4km/h higher. So an indicated speed of 180km/h could be as little as 160km/h. The Leaf is known to over read by quite a bit.

DrPhilG

My original plan was to keep my current Leaf for 4 years (2 down, 2 to go) and then trade up into a 1 year old Leaf 2 with 200+ miles range in all weathers, then keep that car long term.

Given that the upcoming Leaf is likely to leave me a bit disappointed and not make that 200 mile target, I have a few options.

1 - suck it up for a few more years in my 24kwh until that elusive 200 mile car is available.

2 - take the below target range and buy a second hand 40kwh, then repeat in another few years.

3 - this is the one I'm not sure about. I have never looked into PCP but could I buy a 40kwh on PCP and then trade up when the right car finally arrives? Can someone explain PCP for dummies? I'm currently putting aside €170 a month towards my next car. That's roughly the amount I'm saving compared to diesel. By the time Leaf 2 hits I will have about €5k saved, plus the value of my 141 which I should have a private buyer for.

cros13

DrPhilG wrote: »

Given that the upcoming Leaf is likely to leave me a bit disappointed and not make that 200 mile target, I have a few options.

Don't be so sure about that. There is definately a larger battery than 40kWh on the way with the new Leaf. The only question is when will they have enough cell supply from LG to get it into dealers. But I'm very confident n Leaf with more than 50kWh will be on Irish roads in 2018. What I don't know is whether Nissan will acknowledge the existence of the larger battery at launch.

If you want a car with more than 320km of range don't buy the 40kWh Leaf, just wait another 6 months.

unkel

DrPhilG wrote: »

1 - suck it up for a few more years in my 24kwh until that elusive 200 mile car is available.

If the 80 mile range in your current Leaf is adequate for your needs, why the need for he 200 mile range? Sure, more is always better but the problem with an emerging technology is that there is always something better around the corner. Can't just keep waiting forever for the perfect car to come along!

Leaf 2 looks like a good proposition for the next 2 years, but obviously it will be cheaper second hand. That said, I don't think we'll ever see the rapid depreciation of the Leaf 1 like we have seen over the past few years where you could bring in a 1 year old 30kWh for about half the new price

Go buy a brand new Leaf 2. You're worth it

grogi

unkel wrote: »

Go buy a brand new Leaf 2. You're worth it

If only they included the two way steering wheel alignment...

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

If the 80 mile range in your current Leaf is adequate for your needs, why the need for the 200 mile range?

First off, I drive my car like I stole it. I enjoy the speed and acceleration so I don't use eco or bother hyoermiling. So I definitely don't get 80 miles.

Secondly, the current range is adequate but it has definitely got drawbacks. I drive Donegal to Belfast half a dozen times a year, and that needs a charge in the Glenshane plus a charge once I hit Belfast. Dublin is on the cards maybe 3 times a year which means 15 minutes in Omagh, 25 minutes in Monaghan and half an hour in Applegreen on the motorway. That's the guts of an hour extra compared to a short Monaghan toilet stop, which is a pain.

I do Cork once a year and I hire an ICE for that as it's far too restrictive and reliant on charger functionality and availability.

A 200 mile car would make Belfast easy without stopping. Dublin the same and Cork a 1 or 2 stop trip which is what I'd be stopping anyway.

So essentially all the EV benefits without the downsides.

ELM327

PhilG - Have you considered an Ioniq?
Much much better than a leaf.
I believe there was a recent video showed cork-belfast in just 2 stops.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

All EVs have speed limiters. If the Leaf I didn't have one, it would probably do about 190km/h* at max power (80kW) and the battery (24kWh) would be depleted in 24/80 hours, or 18 minutes. In those 18 minutes the car would have gone from 100% full to completely empty in just 18/60 * 190 = 57km max range

*that's just a guess, but similar size ICE cars with similar power and a similar coefficient of drag would have an unlimited top speed of 190km/h or thereabouts

Not sure what the point of that post is. Its not technically possible to drive at max power for 18mins so its a pointless calculation.

Even if it were possible, what would you get from your equivalent ICE if you had it red lining for 18mins.... I'd say horrendous mpg and a new set of pistons shortly after!

ewj1978 wrote: »

Pretty sure we've had this discussion before.. I've maybe seen 163 on my leaf with 5 adults onboard. Hence my speed limiter question.

Yea, we've had the discussion a few times before!

The Leaf max's out at 150kmh (GPS speed) maybe a bit more if you are going downhill. The Leaf over reads so your 163 is about right.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

PhilG - Have you considered an Ioniq?
Much much better than a leaf.
I believe there was a recent video showed cork-belfast in just 2 stops.

Ioniq is a great budget EV but availability is poor. And the Leaf 2 should have more range for similar money. BTW stick to 100km/h and you can easily do Cork to Belfast in 1 stop in Ioniq

DrPhilG

I have considered the Ioniq, but there are drawbacks to that too. CCS coverage in the North west is very poor. The Ioniq doesn't have 360 degree parking cameras (essential for the wife) and it also won't get near 200 miles per charge in its current incarnation.

The CCS issue is the main one. If I was buying now it would still have to be the Leaf as a result.

My father has been ill recently and will most likely be in a nursing home for the rest of his days so my daily commute will change (3 days a week anyway) from 25 miles round trip to about 80 miles. That leaves very little wiggle room for anything else during the day and means that in my current car I need to charge during the day.

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

BTW stick to 100km/h and you can easily do Cork to Belfast in 1 stop in Ioniq

Sure.

Might go the whole hog and take up knitting and playing drafts too!

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Not sure what the point of that post is. Its not technically possible to drive at max power for 18mins so its a pointless calculation.

They've made it not possible because of the atrocious affect it would have on range. That's precisely my point

And you can redline a modern ICE petrol car for a lot longer than 18 minutes without it doing any damage or shorten the lifespan of the engine

unkel

DrPhilG wrote: »

Sure.

Might go the whole hog and take up knitting and playing drafts too!

Haha, wouldn't be my style either. More of a challenge to do it at 150km/h with 2 stops

KCross

unkel wrote: »

They've made it not possible because of the atrocious affect it would have on range. That's precisely my point

And you can redline a modern ICE petrol car for a lot longer than 18 minutes without it doing any damage or shorten the lifespan of the engine

Its not a case of they limiting it. If you were to be at max power for 18mins you would be in a constant state of acceleration.... what road would you be able to do that on and what speed would you be at after 1min, not to mind 18mins.... its just not possible to do so its a pointless calculation.... you can't do it in an ICE either so its not an EV thing.... its more physics than motors!


I'll take your word for it on the red lining but I wouldn't like to see the mpg figures.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Its not a case of they limiting it. If you were to be at max power for 18mins you would be in a constant state of acceleration.

And defy the laws of physics?

grogi

KCross wrote: »

Its not a case of they limiting it. If you were to be at max power for 18mins you would be in a constant state of acceleration....

And almost infinite mass?

KCross

unkel wrote: »

And defy the laws of physics?

grogi wrote: »

And almost infinite mass?

Lets not get too technical here! :P

Im just saying you can't accelerate constantly for 18mins hence the calculation is just theoretical and not possible to do in practice even if they disabled the speed limiter.

grogi

KCross wrote: »

Lets not get too technical here! :P

Im just saying you can't accelerate constantly for 18mins hence the calculation is just theoretical and not possible to do in practice even if they disabled the speed limiter.

There is something called aerodynamic drag. Because of it the power requirement to maintain certain speed increases with power of three.

For instance, if at 60 km/h you need only 5 kW to overcome the drag, at 120 km/h you would need 40kW... At 180 km/h you need 135kW... Every time you increase the speed by 10%, your power requirement goes up by 35%...

Eventually you will reach a speed when all your power goes not to acceleration, but beating the drag. And that speed is not that far away - around 160-180 km/h for a compact car with ~100bhp drive train.

unkel

grogi wrote: »

around 160-180 km/h for a compact car with ~100bhp drive train.

According to your dyno graph it was more like 114bhp. With a coefficient of drag of 0.32 (which is really not that bad), I would be surprised if it couldn't do about 190km/h

KCross

grogi wrote: »

There is something called aerodynamic drag. Because of it the power requirement to maintain certain speed increases with power of three.

For instance, if at 60 km/h you need only 5 kW to overcome the drag, at 120 km/h you would need 40kW... At 180 km/h you need 135kW... Every time you increase the speed by 10%, your power requirement goes up by 35%...

Eventually you will reach a speed when all your power goes not to acceleration, but beating the drag. And that speed is not that far away - around 160-180 km/h for a compact car with ~100bhp drive train.

I agree the faster you go the more you will be using to overcome drag.

And again without derailing things too much here.... you cannot use max power for 18mins so its just a theoretical figure. It means nothing in reality... thats all Im saying.