2018 Leaf

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

But you're driving an engine, hell no. lol

Oh... I'm not suggesting that you drive the wheels with it... just as a range extender for HGVs.

There's plenty of LPG burned off at the refineries that could be used for trucks. Though I'd imagine it would have to be pretty compressed and I'm not sure how many HGV drivers would feel comfortable with all that !

grogi

Deleted User wrote: »

There's plenty of LPG burned off at the refineries that could be used for trucks. Though I'd imagine it would have to be pretty compressed and I'm not sure how many HGV drivers would feel comfortable with all that !

A few corrections:

a) contrary to CNG, LPG does not need to be compressed under high pressure. The LPG tanks are designed to work around 15 bar, while CNG (widely used by fleet operators like buses) is under 200 bar.

b) there isn't as much LPG produced as side product of petrol refinement as you would think (1%-4% of the crude oil mass; petrol constitutes almost 50%).



LPG is a good fuel, but provides only a few advantages over petrol (less pollutants mainly). It is however more difficult to transport, store and put into the vehicles. Combine it with the fact that there are other uses for LPG, exp. domestic - that's why it is not that popular to power automobiles.

cros13

Had a chat with someone at Nissan today.

Chademo confirmed, they looked at CCS and decided the dealers would revolt if they were asked to pay for new rapids/wanted to still serve Chademo-heavy markets/wanted to retain more commonality. They have had CCS in the lab to be ready if they have to switch for future EVs.

On the other hand, Type 1 for AC is dropped, Type 2 confirmed for the EU market. Higher AC charging speeds, 3-phase 16A or 32A might be standard/optional (not settled yet).

40kWh-class battery to start with the 60kWh following later. Better efficiency. Aiming for a solid 250km on the EPA cycle with the 40kWh pack. Range should be 40-50% above the 30kWh Leaf.

Nissan ProPilot single-lane motorway steering and adaptive cruise. Multi-lane with automatic lane changes might be coming but select markets and possibly delayed (they are having issues in testing).

New infotainment system.

Gumbo

40kw would be enough to do me for ever!
While the Leaf is not a good looker, I actually prefer it to the current crop, golf, ioniq etc

I think if you go EV, it has to stand out a bit and be a bit quirky imho.
Can't wait to see the new release.

Just to confirm, is the EPA range test the real world one that we should be expecting? Not the advertisements etc?

Yes the EPA is the real efficiency/range figure you should expect.

I average very close to the EPA test result in the Leaf and in the Ioniq on my test drive.

yes you can get more or less but the EPA test is pretty real life.

The advertisements are based on the NEDC test which is a laboratory test , designed to favour the car makers but the VW emissions scandal has highlighted the flaws that everyone already knew about but now they have to do something about it and real life emissions tests are due to come into effect next year I believe which could cause havoc for car makers.

Evd-Burner

cros13 wrote:

On the other hand, Type 1 for AC is dropped, Type 2 confirmed for the EU market. Higher AC charging speeds, 3-phase 16A or 32A might be standard/optional (not settled yet).

40kw battery with 3 phase charging would be perfect. 250km range with the ability to add 125km per hour at an SCP would be perfect. The SCP network would start to become very relevant again. Even as a backup to the fcp! EG using fast ac charger when one of the DC chargers is in use.

Even 6.6 Kw makes a big difference over 3.3 Kw.

Faster charging AC would be great, however I feel that the future is DC, you will see more 20 odd Kw DC chargers over the next few years and get much cheaper and this will replace AC.

grogi

kceire wrote: »

40kw would be enough to do me for ever!
While the Leaf is not a good looker, I actually prefer it to the current crop, golf, ioniq etc

I think if you go EV, it has to stand out a bit and be a bit quirky imho.
Can't wait to see the new release.

Just to confirm, is the EPA range test the real world one that we should be expecting? Not the advertisements etc?

Yes, the figures given by EPA are much more life-like. NEDC figures are a joke, but allow to compare cars between each other.

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

Had a chat with someone at Nissan today.

Chademo confirmed, they looked at CCS and decided the dealers would revolt if they were asked to pay for new rapids/wanted to still serve Chademo-heavy markets/wanted to retain more commonality. They have had CCS in the lab to be ready if they have to switch for future EVs.

On the other hand, Type 1 for AC is dropped, Type 2 confirmed for the EU market. Higher AC charging speeds, 3-phase 16A or 32A might be standard/optional (not settled yet).

40kWh-class battery to start with the 60kWh following later. Better efficiency. Aiming for a solid 250km on the EPA cycle with the 40kWh pack. Range should be 40-50% above the 30kWh Leaf.

Nissan ProPilot single-lane motorway steering and adaptive cruise. Multi-lane with automatic lane changes might be coming but select markets and possibly delayed (they are having issues in testing).

New infotainment system.

Personally a Leaf that is priced potentially greater then the Ioniq giving us a " meh " range of 250 , will just make me wait for Hyundais bigger battery Ioniq

Type 2 AC. Oh well , I'll have to rebuild my granny cable

Good to see chademo comformed from another source other then me ! , good decision for Ireland given the dominance of chademo

Soarer

BoatMad wrote: »

Personally a Leaf that is priced potentially greater then the Ioniq giving us a " meh " range of 250 , will just make me wait for Hyundais bigger battery Ioniq

What price is the bigger battery Ioniq going to be, potentially?

BoatMad

Soarer wrote: »

What price is the bigger battery Ioniq going to be, potentially?

Given the efficiencies , and the very similar pricing , a 40 kWh Ioniq is going to be a far better EV then a similar leaf. Getting 250 EPA from 40 kWh , when Ioniq are already there with circa 30 kWh is hardly ground breaking

Now a 60 kWh leaf at a small premium would have a wow factor

Of course rumours of the issues of space in the Ioniq form factor , will be interesting to see play out

grogi

BoatMad wrote: »

Given the efficiencies , and the very similar pricing , a 40 kWh Ioniq is going to be a far better EV then a similar leaf. Getting 250 EPA from 40 kWh , when Ioniq are already there with circa 30 kWh is hardly ground breaking

Now a 60 kWh leaf at a small premium would have a wow factor

Of course rumours of the issues of space in the Ioniq form factor , will be interesting to see play out

Correction - according to EPA Ioniq 28 kWh is rated 124 miles (200 km). https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=38431

If Leaf is getting 250km out of 40kWh (usable around 38kWh), it will have effectively the same efficiency as Ioniq...

Mope

grogi wrote: »

Correction - according to EPA Ioniq 28 kWh is rated 128 miles (205 km).

And that would be "driving without looking at range left" in a city scenario.
Add some highways/motorway driving above 110km/h and it's not 205km for sure

cros13

Mope wrote: »

And that would be "driving without looking at range left" in a city scenario.
Add some highways/motorway driving above 110km/h and it's not 205km for sure

EPA cycle includes motorway driving with the AC/heating on. It's very representative of real world range in Irish conditions.

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

Correction - according to EPA Ioniq 28 kWh is rated 124 miles (200 km). https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=38431

If Leaf is getting 250km out of 40kWh (usable around 38kWh), it will have effectively the same efficiency as Ioniq...

Actually the leaf will be usable 40 kWh , actual is expected to be 42-44. I.e. The pack is the same as the Zoe

Mope

cros13 wrote: »

EPA cycle includes motorway driving with the AC/heating on. It's very representative of real world range in Irish conditions.

Yeap, in this case they are on the ball here.

By now I know that I can definitely reach any destination above 200km/h if I drive 90 or 100km/h with AC. I might be a little bit worried in last few KMs, but I'd monitor bars and GOM and adjust driving to reach it :-)

grogi

BoatMad wrote: »

Actually the leaf will be usable 40 kWh , actual is expected to be 42-44. I.e. The pack is the same as the Zoe

Ok. So a bit smaller efficiency than an Ioniq then.

BoatMad

grogi wrote: »

Ok. So a bit smaller efficiency than an Ioniq then.

Yes , I don't expect the next gen leaf to rival the CD efficiency of the Ioniq , it should improve over current leaf , but the extra weight will work against it

There is a danger that the gen 2 leaf turns out to be " meh " . I hope I'm wrong as with the mileage we're doing , we intend to trade out next year

Soarer

BoatMad wrote: »

Yes , I don't expect the next gen leaf to rival the CD efficiency of the Ioniq , it should improve over current leaf , but the extra weight will work against it

There is a danger that the gen 2 leaf turns out to be " meh " . I hope I'm wrong as with the mileage we're doing , we intend to trade out next year

That's twice in almost as many posts that you've said that. What makes you think it?

I personally think it sounds exciting. And if it looks anything like the Micra or whatever, I think it'll look great!

DrPhilG

I too am worried that the next gen leaf will be underwhelming.

All the early suggestions were that it would be a 200 mile car. That seems to now be dragged back to 150-160 with a bigger battery in the pipeline for a year later which would be a major disappointment especially since that year later could turn into far more.

BoatMad

DrPhilG wrote: »

I too am worried that the next gen leaf will be underwhelming.

All the early suggestions were that it would be a 200 mile car. That seems to now be dragged back to 150-160 with a bigger battery in the pipeline for a year later which would be a major disappointment especially since that year later could turn into far more.

Yes and we don't have price point visibility either which further compounds the issue , for example will there be a premium over the currebt ( already premium ) 30 kWh leaf. ??

Nissan can do a cheaper inefficient car or a dearer efficient one, a dearer inefficient car is not a winner

BoatMad

Soarer wrote: »

That's twice in almost as many posts that you've said that. What makes you think it?

I personally think it sounds exciting. And if it looks anything like the Micra or whatever, I think it'll look great!

Because a 40 kWh car at presumably a premium over the 30 kWh , delivering similar efficiencies to the current model ( which is what is suggested from the specs ) is very much " meh"

Hyundai simply have to release an equivalent battery ( circa 44kw ) to trounce the Nissan

Soarer

BoatMad wrote: »

Because a 40 kWh car at presumably a premium over the 30 kWh , delivering similar efficiencies to the current model ( which is what is suggested from the specs ) is very much " meh"

Hyundai simply have to release an equivalent battery ( circa 44kw ) to trounce the Nissan

The 30kWh battery is the only option available in the UK at the minute. So I can't see how you're presuming they're going to have a premium over the premium. Surely the thinking would be the current premium would be the next base, and then a new premium is formed?
Also, it's 40kWh usable. Which is nearly a 50% increase on the current usable of the 30kWh.

As for Hyundai, isn't there talk about the current form factor being an issue for a bigger battery? So why isn't that "meh"?

I'm not picking a fight like. I'm just wondering how someone can be so on one side of things when nothing's confirmed.

BoatMad

Soarer wrote: »

The 30kWh battery is the only option available in the UK at the minute. So I can't see how you're presuming they're going to have a premium over the premium. Surely the thinking would be the current premium would be the next base, and then a new premium is formed?
Also, it's 40kWh usable. Which is nearly a 50% increase on the current usable of the 30kWh.

As for Hyundai, isn't there talk about the current form factor being an issue for a bigger battery? So why isn't that "meh"?

I'm not picking a fight like. I'm just wondering how someone can be so on one side of things when nothing's confirmed.

We know most of the leafs details , i.e. Chademo , 40 kWh " usable " , expected EPA 250 km/h

I can't see the gen 2 leaf arriving at the same price point of the 30 kWh , which is in itself a premium on the 24

Hence I expect the list to be increased , this brings the Ioniq and leaf very close in price points.

Yes there is talk in the auto blogs that Hyundai have a form factor issue with increasing the battery size , but given Hyundai would have known about the next generation leaf , I find it hard to believe they didn't design in at least one battery iteration

aliveandkicking

cros13 wrote: »

Had a chat with someone at Nissan today.

Chademo confirmed, they looked at CCS and decided the dealers would revolt if they were asked to pay for new rapids/wanted to still serve Chademo-heavy markets/wanted to retain more commonality. They have had CCS in the lab to be ready if they have to switch for future EVs.

On the other hand, Type 1 for AC is dropped, Type 2 confirmed for the EU market. Higher AC charging speeds, 3-phase 16A or 32A might be standard/optional (not settled yet).

40kWh-class battery to start with the 60kWh following later. Better efficiency. Aiming for a solid 250km on the EPA cycle with the 40kWh pack. Range should be 40-50% above the 30kWh Leaf.

Nissan ProPilot single-lane motorway steering and adaptive cruise. Multi-lane with automatic lane changes might be coming but select markets and possibly delayed (they are having issues in testing).

New infotainment system.

Don't suppose you got any info on the upgraded e-NV200? Do you think we can expect to see that at the same time as the new Leaf?

unkel

Decent figures for the new Leaf! Now I guess the crucial issue will be pricing. If you can get one on the road for under €30k, it should sell. And I'm not sure what the "aiming" for the 250km means. If it won't make 250km, it would be disappointing. And still won't make it between Irelands two biggest cities without charging...

cros13

I was told about a year ago that the 60kWh would have a starting price north of ?30k and that the 40kWh would be in the region of ?25k.
But those were design targets with a margin, what the commercial side of Nissan decides to do in terms of pricing is probably still under discussion.

Soarer

cros13 wrote: »

I was told about a year ago that the 60kWh would have a starting price north of ?30k and that the 40kWh would be in the region of ?25k.
But those were design targets with a margin, what the commercial side of Nissan decides to do in terms of pricing is probably still under discussion.

Good man cros.

Any news on standard 6.6 charging?

You'd like to think it can't be too far north of 30k as it'll be pushing towards the Model 3. And hopefully sub 30k with scrappage.

60kWh Leaf with fast charging for ~28k after scrappage would be nice.

unkel

I think that's a bit optimistic Soarer. But even at €30k on the road after scrappage for the 60kWh (real life range over 300km) would be good

And €25k on the road after scrappage for the 40kWh would be very decent!

Presumably both will have 6.6kW charging as standard, with a 60kWh battery, you need it!

cros13

Soarer wrote: »

Any news on standard 6.6 charging?

It's going to be 3-phase charging as standard (probably 11kW) so on your single phase home chargepoint it will work at 3.6kW. Possibility of a higher charging rate as an option or standard but I don't have definite info on that.

Mope

11kW sounds nice for SCP ;]

unkel

3.6kW with a 60kWh battery is useless. Unless you mostly work from home and have the car plugged in all the time. Or can charge at work as well as at home. Either way it is very silly to have such slow charging as standard

cros13

3.6kW for 9 hours of nightsaver is 32.4kWh. Unless you are doing over 200km every day it should be fine for most people.

BoatMad

Soarer wrote: »

Good man cros.

Any news on standard 6.6 charging?

You'd like to think it can't be too far north of 30k as it'll be pushing towards the Model 3. And hopefully sub 30k with scrappage.

60kWh Leaf with fast charging for ~28k after scrappage would be nice.

I think any leaf after rebates goes over 30k euros here will struggle

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

3.6kW for 9 hours of nightsaver is 32.4kWh. Unless you are doing over 200km every day it should be fine for most people.

Disagree. Who do you know can leave the house after 9AM? For most of us it's 7:30AM or even a lot earlier

And 24kW (7.5 hours night saver) won't even give you 150km. If that was enough for someone, they would buy a 40kWh Leaf, and not spend €5k extra for a 60kWh Leaf

It's a terrible mistake it comes with just 3.3kW charging. It doesn't matter if your battery is 24kWh / 28kWh / 30kWh / 40kWh but if it is 60kWh you need faster charging. Bad call, Nissan.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Disagree. Who do you know can leave the house after 9AM? For most of us it's 7:30AM or even a lot earlier

And 24kW (7.5 hours night saver) won't even give you 150km. If that was enough for someone, they would buy a 40kWh Leaf, and not spend €5k extra for a 60kWh Leaf

It's a terrible mistake it comes with just 3.3kW charging. It doesn't matter if your battery is 24kWh / 28kWh / 30kWh / 40kWh but if it is 60kWh you need faster charging. Bad call, Nissan.

At Nissan's end of the market they are probably tight on margin and so they use the 6.6kW upgrade as a means of getting more money out of you. For most people the 7.5hrs will be enough and if its not you pay the extra.

Obviously if the competition, like the Ioniq, offers 7kW as standard and everything else is equal then Nissan will have to re-evaluate but there are a lot of variables involved.

In the UK the 6.6kW charger was standard on the Leaf for a while.... I think on the SVE model(?)... so maybe they will do something similar this time too.... maybe offer 6.6kW as standard on the SVE and/or on the 60kWh model but every other model its a paid option.

BoatMad

unkel wrote: »

Disagree. Who do you know can leave the house after 9AM? For most of us it's 7:30AM or even a lot earlier

And 24kW (7.5 hours night saver) won't even give you 150km. If that was enough for someone, they would buy a 40kWh Leaf, and not spend €5k extra for a 60kWh Leaf

It's a terrible mistake it comes with just 3.3kW charging. It doesn't matter if your battery is 24kWh / 28kWh / 30kWh / 40kWh but if it is 60kWh you need faster charging. Bad call, Nissan.

+1

There is no way a 40 kWh can come with less then 6k6 AC charging

However much beyond that isn't useful as it can't be used at home

Anything is possible , I wouldn't believe anything until I can actually buy it.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Anything is possible , I wouldn't believe anything until I can actually buy it.

True , but I think we have enough correlated speculation to coalesce around the basics of the 2018 leaf.

Such as and from whom ? until I hear it from Nissan Motor Co themselves I don't believe it any more !

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Such as and from whom ? until I hear it from Nissan Motor Co themselves I don't believe it any more !

So if I relay directly what the leaf product manager in Nissan Ireland says are the primary features of the new leaf , you find that difficult to accept

( features that cros , recently agreed with )

We know for a fact the entry level will be a 40 kWh " usable " battery ( most likely the same pack as the Zoe )

We know it will be chademo

I agree with cross it will be type 2 AC

It will have driver aids

Charger size hasn't been released but is unlikely to be 3kw for

After that it's speculating on small details and of course the market price , that's the big unknown

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

+1

There is no way a 40 kWh can come with less then 6k6 AC charging

However much beyond that isn't useful as it can't be used at home

As far as I heard the onboard charger would be 11kW/16A three phase with a possible option of 22kW/32A (and some discussion that 22kW may be standard if commercial factors allow), so in markets where domestic three phase is common that's 11kW... It's just that the effect of single phase supply would be to limit people to 3.6kW at home.

BMW i3 buyers face the same issue. The single phase 7.4kW on-board charger was replaced with an 11kW three-phase when the new 34kWh battery came out. And now single phase home charging is limited to 3.6kW/16A.

And Tesla have a similar situation where their standard charger on anything below a 100kWh pack is an 11kW three-phase. The 100kWh comes with a 16.4kW three-phase charger that can pull ~5.5kW/24A from a single phase supply.

grogi

cros13 wrote: »

As far as I heard the onboard charger would be 11kW/16A three phase with a possible option of 22kW/32A (and some discussion that 22kW may be standard if commercial factors allow), so in markets where domestic three phase is common that's 11kW... It's just that the effect of single phase supply would be to limit people to 3.6kW at home.

BMW i3 buyers face the same issue. The single phase 7.4kW on-board charger was replaced with an 11kW three-phase when the new 34kWh battery came out. And now single phase home charging is limited to 3.6kW/16A.

And Tesla have a similar situation where their standard charger on anything below a 100kWh pack is an 11kW three-phase. The 100kWh comes with a 16.4kW three-phase charger that can pull ~5.5kW/24A from a single phase supply.

Again, my electro-technical knowledge is limited...

Would it be possible to power all three phase terminals in the charger by the same live cable from one-phase supply? It probably depends if the charger is powered by cross-phase voltage (2) or phase-neutral (1)...



I guess that because it is possible to power it only with one phase, the option 1 is applied and one could do something like that. In Ireland one phase supplies are capable of handling 32A on one phase. But again - ain't no expert...

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

It's going to be 3-phase charging as standard (probably 11kW) so on your single phase home chargepoint it will work at 3.6kW. Possibility of a higher charging rate as an option or standard but I don't have definite info on that.

cant see the point of that , are you saying there will be no single phase 32A option .

I was told the car will be standard with a 6K ( circa) charger

BoatMad

cros13 wrote: »

As far as I heard the onboard charger would be 11kW/16A three phase with a possible option of 22kW/32A (and some discussion that 22kW may be standard if commercial factors allow), so in markets where domestic three phase is common that's 11kW... It's just that the effect of single phase supply would be to limit people to 3.6kW at home.

BMW i3 buyers face the same issue. The single phase 7.4kW on-board charger was replaced with an 11kW three-phase when the new 34kWh battery came out. And now single phase home charging is limited to 3.6kW/16A.

And Tesla have a similar situation where their standard charger on anything below a 100kWh pack is an 11kW three-phase. The 100kWh comes with a 16.4kW three-phase charger that can pull ~5.5kW/24A from a single phase supply.

forcing me back to 16A in a larger battery format , would completely and utterly discourage me from buying the car .

its a nonsense step

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

forcing me back to 16A in a larger battery format , would completely and utterly discourage me from buying the car .

its a nonsense step

I disagree, even if it ends up being 16A this new charger would still charge slightly faster than the base 15A 3.3kW charger in the current Leaf... and that meets the home charging needs of most people.
Out and about on ESB's Type 2 network they'd charge more than three times faster. And in important markets for Nissan like Germany, domestic/light commercial three phase is more common.

If the 32A is an option (or hopefully standard)... again it's 10% more power on a 32A single phase chargepoint than the 6.6kW and more than three times faster than that from a 22kW post.

It's a win-win from my perspective. I don't think the battery capacity enters into this except for a few edge cases where you gain the new option of installing three-phase where you were SOL (or looking at €6k+ for a 22kW chademo DC charger) with the current Leaf.

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

in markets where domestic three phase is common

What markets are they? I can think of Germany, where it is not uncommon, but I'm not even sure how many people have it and, for the people that don't, how expensive it is to upgrade their home supply. And for that matter, how much is it to upgrade your supply here? And is there an increased standing charge after?

Mope

I am not sure, but I think Lithuania has three phase in houses/flats. Our cookers usually connected with this massive plug.

grogi

unkel wrote: »

What markets are they? I can think of Germany, where it is not uncommon, but I'm not even sure how many people have it and, for the people that don't, how expensive it is to upgrade their home supply. And for that matter, how much is it to upgrade your supply here? And is there an increased standing charge after?

Majority of them actually...

It is UK and Ireland that have massive 1-phase supplies, like 63A or 80A. But in Poland everyone that has electric hob has 3-phase, you will struggle to find one phase with more than 25A.