Near misses - mod warning 22/04 - see OP/post 822

magicbastarder

queldy wrote: »

had a near miss in this roundabout here, and since it is the last of a (very) long series

it *is* the walkinstown roundabout. i don't enjoy it in a car, let alone on a bike.

robyntmorton

I have to agree with everyone else here. You have to be really f'in confident in everyone else's situational awareness and ability, or really f'in suicidal to go for it on a bike. I've only ever done it in a car, and I am not a fan of it.

Maybe this is one of those times where walking it really is the right option.

RayCun

Walkinstown roundabout... the only time I go on it on a bike is when I'm taking the first exit. Otherwise I go pedestrian.

buffalo

It's bigger than your average roundabout, but treat it like any other - plenty of shoulder checks, indicate and check before changing lane, and if someone in a bigger vehicle is acting dangerously, take whatever avoidance measures you can.

I think taking the outer lane the whole way around for a three o'clock is not the safest approach, as you have maximised opportunities for cars to cut across you at each and every exit.

CramCycle

If I am reading your post right you are approaching the roundabout and entering it in the left lane to take a right turn.

While you will see recommendations on a bicycle that you can do this in the ROTR, on a motorbike, it is inexcusably wrong. You are taking the 4th exit (or in this scenario, roughly equivalent to the 9o'clock exit). Even on a push bike though I wouldn't take the left lane for it as you are going to get hooked. If you are not confident enough to take the lane, it might be better to dismount and walk around.

You should be entering the roundabout in the right hand lane, not the left, as you are not taking the first or second exit. I would take the inner lane, merge over one on passing Walkinstown Ave, and over another one at Walkinstown Road. I come through here a bit (albeit from terenure going to Walkinstown Ave) and never have any major issue if taking the correct lane. I do always expect someone to mess up though so am super cautious on entering, leaving and changing lane.

Everyone else is right in that the majority of Irish cannot use a roundabout correctly.

You were probably getting honked as being in the left lane, you were expected to take the first or second exit. none of the exits are two lane, so you would be expected to only merge into the left lane immediately after the turn before your exit.

queldy

CramCycle wrote: »

If I am reading your post right you are approaching the roundabout and entering it in the left lane to take a right turn.

While you will see recommendations on a bicycle that you can do this in the ROTR, on a motorbike, it is inexcusably wrong. You are taking the 4th exit (or in this scenario, roughly equivalent to the 9o'clock exit). Even on a push bike though I wouldn't take the left lane for it as you are going to get hooked. If you are not confident enough to take the lane, it might be better to dismount and walk around.

You should be entering the roundabout in the right hand lane, not the left, as you are not taking the first or second exit. I would take the inner lane, merge over one on passing Walkinstown Ave, and over another one at Walkinstown Road. I come through here a bit (albeit from terenure going to Walkinstown Ave) and never have any major issue if taking the correct lane. I do always expect someone to mess up though so am super cautious on entering, leaving and changing lane.

Everyone else is right in that the majority of Irish cannot use a roundabout correctly.

You were probably getting honked as being in the left lane, you were expected to take the first or second exit. none of the exits are two lane, so you would be expected to only merge into the left lane immediately after the turn before your exit.

Yes, you do read it correctly.
So if I am entering the roundabout and wanting to take the 3rd or 4th, I should not be taking the external line?
I am wondering because in Italy you could take the external line and go in circle in the roundabout till you feel comfortable enough to take the exit - in that situation (going in circle on the external line) no one will (or should not!) cut your way.
I was more specifically asking about the regulations, not about what "I am expected" to do in a roundabout (that is unfortunately a matter of interpretation).

That said, I will avoid this roundabout 100% from now (if I think at how many times I used it...), but unfortunately this is not the only one in Ireland...

Thanks a lot guys

PS
I mean, if I am on the external line, no one should cut my way to take an exit, right?
I could be wrong being there, but either he/she is ahead of me or he/she is behind me.

Then of course, you expect people doing crazy things, but I do not see why I am mistaken.

cython

queldy wrote: »

Yes, you do read it correctly.
So if I am entering the roundabout and wanting to take the 3rd or 4th, I should not be taking the external line?
I am wondering because in Italy you could take the external line and go in circle in the roundabout till you feel comfortable enough to take the exit - in that situation (going in circle on the external line) no one will (or should not!) cut your way.
I was more specifically asking about the regulations, not about what "I am expected" to do in a roundabout (that is unfortunately a matter of interpretation).

That said, I will avoid this roundabout 100% from now (if I think at how many times I used it...), but unfortunately this is not the only one in Ireland...

Thanks a lot guys

PS
I mean, if I am on the external line, no one should cut my way to take an exit, right?
I could be wrong being there, but either he/she is ahead of me or he/she is behind me.

Then of course, you expect people doing crazy things, but I do not see why I am mistaken.

Unfortunately a lot of roundabouts in Ireland are incorrectly marked for their intended usage, with lanes delineated simply by concentric circles, rather than spiral shapes. Were the Walkinstown one to have its lanes properly marked per how it is supposed to be used, the "external" lane as you call it would always taper off into the exit, while a new lane would open opposite the next entrance. Instead these roundabouts follow a practice of changing lanes as you pass the exit to work your way outwards towards the exit you want to take. However it is essentially never on any roundabout correct to stay in the left hand lane while passing multiple exits only to take an exit past 12 o'clock from where you entered.

I do appreciate, however, that marking out this series of tapering/spiralling lanes is not necessarily feasible in the small area afforded to many roundabouts, but there is an inexcusable example of this near Kilcock on the M4 flyovers.

Chuchote

Where;s there a correct example, Cython?

5uspect

Chuchote wrote: »

Where;s there a correct example, Cython?

These new ones in Tyrrelstown I suppose.

TheChizler

5uspect wrote: »

These new ones in Tyrrelstown I suppose.

That is a thing of beauty. Why can't more things be done right?

plodder

TheChizler wrote: »

That is a thing of beauty. Why can't more things be done right?

It's impressive all right when you view it from above. That type of design combined with proper signage telling you what lane to be in when approaching (and not just road markings) would make roundabouts a lot easier to negotiate. And get rid of traffic lights on them too. They are the work of the devil.

Danbo!

TheChizler wrote: »

That is a thing of beauty. Why can't more things be done right?

Spawell roundabout recently repainted like this, google maps images still shows the concentric circles, and sure drivers act like they're still the old way anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ThisRegard

5uspect wrote: »

These new ones in Tyrrelstown I suppose.

They are a mess in reality though. The markings on all those roundabouts just don't work, look at the track for which the red car should follow.

And there's no consistency. One roundabout will have the right lane straight or turn right, the very next one will be a right turn only.

cython

ThisRegard wrote: »

They are a mess in reality though. The markings on all those roundabouts just don't work, look at the track for which the red car should follow.

And there's no consistency. One roundabout will have the right lane straight or turn right, the very next one will be a right turn only.

What specifically is the problem with the track of the red car? They entered in the right hand lane, and can go either straight on or right? I'll grant you that joining from the east or west entrances is messy due to 2 lanes feeding into 3, but if people actually followed the road markings the pictured markings make infinitely more sense than the concentric circle approach where people just switch lanes when and where they please.

As for a lack of consistency in lanes vs intended direction of travel, that is hardly unique to roundabouts marked in this fashion!

RobertFoster

Danbo! wrote: »

Spawell roundabout recently repainted like this, google maps images still shows the concentric circles, and sure drivers act like they're still the old way anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's the same in Tyrrelstown and the N2-N3 link road nearby. Lane discipline is very poor, and in my experience a lot of users take the race line and cut across the hatching. Coupled with that and the high centre barriers approaching the roundabouts, your intentions can be misjudged by those entering the roundabouts; I've often had vehicles encroaching from the left.

They also promote right turns from the left lane, even when it's not feasible. Look at the middle arrow on the south entrance to this roundabout. It says straight and right, but if you stayed in the lane you'd only be able to go on straight.

The whole area feels messy and uncomfortable to navigate both driving and cycling.

ThisRegard

cython wrote: »

What specifically is the problem with the track of the red car? They entered in the right hand lane, and can go either straight on or right? I'll grant you that joining from the east or west entrances is messy due to 2 lanes feeding into 3, but if people actually followed the road markings the pictured markings make infinitely more sense than the concentric circle approach where people just switch lanes when and where they please.

As for a lack of consistency in lanes vs intended direction of travel, that is hardly unique to roundabouts marked in this fashion!

The car can obviously go anywhere it wants, but look at the second set of thatched markings it's about to encounter, it's in no man's land.

Re the consistency, I'm just making the point they're not the model they're being held up to be. If you have a set of traffic coming up to a roundabout in the left lane aiming to go straight where they've been able to do so every other roundabout in that area, it's a bit dumb all of a sudden preventing traffic from doing so. I don't think there's advanced signage on any of them re what lane is what.

I'm around that area regularly and without fail I'll come across a collision on one of them every week or two.

RobertFoster covered some of the issues above too.

TheChizler

ThisRegard wrote: »

The car can obviously go anywhere it wants, but look at the second set of thatched markings it's about to encounter, it's in no man's land.

I'm not sure I see the problem. If they want to take a further exit on the right they just move into the right lane after the hatchings.

ThisRegard

As you look the pic the car is at 3 o'clock. If it wants to exit at 9 it can follow the lane it's in and go wide. This leaves the inside empty after the thatch for a car behind it to move in, looking to take the same exit, and both can come to a squeeze.

magicbastarder

ThisRegard wrote: »

The car can obviously go anywhere it wants, but look at the second set of thatched markings it's about to encounter, it's in no man's land.

not sure i follow - are you suggesting it's about to enter the hashed off area (the position of the car in the aerial shot doesn't help here, to be fair - it looks like its about to drift into the lane to its right); the lane it's in becomes the 'middle' lane - which will allow it to exit to the south, or continue to the west.

5uspect

TheChizler wrote: »

That is a thing of beauty. Why can't more things be done right?

I have to admit that I don't like them. They're awkward to drive around and the vestigial left turning lane appears out of nowhere a few meters from tbe roundabout.

Drivers will spend their time watching the road markings rather than their surroundings where as a good driver knows how to use a concentric circle roundabout properly.

Arcade_Tryer

Cycling into the city from Chapelizod last night circa 10pm and heard a car horn behind me in the distance. Then again a bit closer behind me. Car speeds past and there is a person gesticulating out the window, appearing to be pointing toward the cycle path/footpath. Instinctively I through up the middle finger in response as they sped off. Next thing the car's brakes came on and it came to a stop in the lane. Considering it was dark and the road was deserted, and I had no idea who or what was in the car, I sped up and passed on the right hand side, letting out a bit of a roar; Anyway, this didn't go down too well, and the car started to rev up and speed toward me from behind; I braced myself for the worst, for a split second thinking I was about to become a statistic due to some deranged lunatic; A relatively close pass ensued. Not pleasant though. Gave a Deliveroo worker one of my lights for the back of his bike when I got back into the city as he had none; I had several lights on my bike, and was wearing both a helmet and high vis.

ED E

Camera.

We shouldnt need them but that's how nutcases like that get taken out of circulation.

Arcade_Tryer

ED E wrote: »

Camera.

We shouldnt need them but that's how nutcases like that get taken out of circulation.

Considered it, but not for me I'm afraid. I do regret not reporting it to the next Garda car I came across however. The car was actually quite distinctive with a white racing line down the middle of it. Bizarre experience if honest.

AndrewJRenko

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Considered it, but not for me I'm afraid. I do regret not reporting it to the next Garda car I came across however. The car was actually quite distinctive with a white racing line down the middle of it. Bizarre experience if honest.

It's difficult enough to get the Gardai to do anything to protect cyclists even with clear video evidence, so I really doubt if they would be doing much with your report, sadly.

Chiparus

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's difficult enough to get the Gardai to do anything to protect cyclists even with clear video evidence, so I really doubt if they would be doing much with your report, sadly.

I have had mixed results, one guard paid a visit to the driver at her home.

Vel

Coming down the Clonskeagh Road heading around towards Ranelagh yesterday morning when a car pulls right in out front of me from a side road at the very last minute and then stops with the end of her car in the bike lane. I had to slam on brakes and nearly went into the back of her. She was totally oblivious as she had very important matters to attend to on her mobile phone. Reg noted and call logged with Trafficwatch this morning. I’m not holding my breath but would love if someone could pop out and remind this bloody bint in her black bmw (ah I love a bit of alliteration!) about the mobile phone laws!

Vel

Chuchote wrote: »

Nobody told me He has returned? I never knew.

Mine, today, not so much a near miss as a definite irritation. I'm sailing along Upper Rathmines Road at a moderate speed but soaking wet and cold in a sudden heavy shower, when a Mummy comes sauntering across, her back to the traffic, leading her pink-dressed little one by the hand. I ring the bell and roar "Look out!" and she turns around and pouts "Slow down!" I was going at walking speed, but of course it wasn't her fault…

Some people shouldn't be put in charge of children.

I had a similar self important 'yummy' mummy start to lead her precious darling across the pedestrian crossing while the red man was still displayed and I was going through on orange.

I got shouted at to 'watch the lights' or maybe actually she was shouting at herself! :rolleyes:

I love Sean nos

Chiparus wrote: »

I have had mixed results, one guard paid a visit to the driver at her home.

Correction: one guard told you that they paid a visit to the offending driver's home.

Chuchote

Vel wrote: »

I had a similar self important 'yummy' mummy start to lead her precious darling across the pedestrian crossing while the red man was still displayed and I was going through on orange.

I got shouted at to 'watch the lights' or maybe actually she was shouting at herself! :rolleyes:

Mind you, you're not entitled to go through on orange in all circumstances, only to proceed with caution while stopping for pedestrians crossing.

magicbastarder

orange means 'stop unless it is dangerous to do so' rather than 'proceed with caution'.