RIP Martin McGuinness

tomwaterford

LordSutch wrote: »

I mentioned the alternative, which was to arrive where we are today, but without all the bloodshed.

I realise I'm fighting an uphill battle on here.

I'm outa here, bye.
===========

It's just there nothing in the preceding 50 years to suggest that your alternative would've ever arrived peacefully

Were the unionists suddenly going to over night give equal rights....when today the person listed as unionisms best leader....openly holds nationlists aspiration in contempt???


The British were never going to tackle that nettle when any government supporting the unionist position could could fully on their votes in Westminster



It's not your alternative is wrong....it just deosnt seem remotely plausible

FrancieBrady

LordSutch wrote: »

Honestly there'e no point me posting .....

I still haven't said a bad word about him on here, yet you persist Francie.

This is my last & final post.

Goodluck.

PS; I didn't recognise the violent way.

What you said had nothing to do with McGuinness. Silly huff to be honest. And you were gonna solve everything, not much staying power. :P

tomwaterford

LordSutch wrote: »

PS; I didn't agree with the violent way.

We thereby conclude you disagree with deployment of soldiers to the north??

Junkyard Tom

I think one way the troubles might have been avoided is if the Catholic/Nationalist population had been armed to the teeth. Ultimately they were a soft target and one side had all the guns.

I understand this sounds counterintuitive but I developed this view after listening to lectures and interviews on how Black non-violent resistance in the US was essentially enabled by weapons held by Black gun owners.

In every decade of the nation’s history, brave and determined black men and women picked up guns to defend themselves and their communities.

Thus the tradition of armed self-defense in Afro-American history cannot be disconnected from the successes of what today is called the nonviolent civil rights movement.



washingtonpost.com

Alf Stewart.

LordSutch wrote: »

Regular non violent marches, strikes, go slows, shouting about it on the world stage, getting Dublin to keep jumping up & down and shouting to the British Government about the situation . . . .

Anything & everything > except the bomb & the bullet.

It was ultimately the bomb and the bullet that brought everyone around the table, and hammered out the deal they reached.

I have heard people say for years about how the campaign should have been a peaceful one, but we all know the way peaceful protests were dealt with up there.

History will be kind to McGuinness etc. In fact, we can already get a glimpse of how popular he was, by many people, from many walks of life.

Here it is.

FrancieBrady

This is always controversial and gets dumbed down with 'they'd be slaughtered' counter argument but had the Irish government acted more decisively and stood up for the people we wouldn't have seen the lid come off.
They failed to pressure the British who were wary of radicalising the south. If you read the government papers of the time the British would have found it difficult to deal with an non aggressive humanitarian mission.
I think the British would have sought to deal with diplomatically and it would have served two purposes.
Forced the British to seek a GFA style solution and stopped the need for the IRA to fill the vacumn that developed when it became clear the Dublin government was not willing to act in line with the constitution.

Irish soldiers may or may not have died, but sometimes that shouldn't deter as any British person would understand.

policarp

Charlie Haughey. Niall Blaney. Mr Jones and others were Martins associates once.

Junkyard Tom

policarp wrote: »

Charlie Haughey. Niall Blaney. Mr Jones and others were Martins associates once.

If they were instrumental in supplying arms to the north at the time they should be honoured for for helping to prevent ethnic cleansing of the nationalist population.

please helpThank YOU

Alf Stewart. wrote: »

It was ultimately the bomb and the bullet that brought everyone around the table, and hammered out the deal they reached.

I have heard people say for years about how the campaign should have been a peaceful one, but we all know the way peaceful protests were dealt with up there.

History will be kind to McGuinness etc. In fact, we can already get a glimpse of how popular he was, by many people, from many walks of life.

Here it is.

Bill Clinton Great Man . thank god it is not Donald Trump in that Great Picture.

FrancieBrady

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

If they were instrumental in supplying arms to the north at the time they should be honoured for for helping to prevent ethnic cleansing of the nationalist population.

What the civil rights movement needed was a government fully behind them, making the British government so uncomfortable (and Wilson was) that they were forced to take action to end the sectarian Unionist state. Action they were eventually forced to take by the violence of conflict/war.
While they did a bit they did not do enough.
And Lynch knew were it was going and what was going to happen. He chickened out. And history shows us the price of that.
If you read the transcript of his simpering, subservient phone call to Heath after Bloody Sunday, he was shamefully more worried about power than people.
Republicans told the south all the way through what the British were really doing and they were vilified for it mostly.
We are now seeing that they were right, almost everything has turned out to be true so far, collusion, torture, shoot to kill and active participation in the conflict on behalf of one side. Until they realised they had lost.

At the central core of that was Martin McGuinness

FrancieBrady

If Marian Finucane and RTE have their way Bertie is gonna end up the hero of the piece. Another fine segment of impartial coverage there from the 'national' broadcaster.

steddyeddy

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

If they were instrumental in supplying arms to the north at the time they should be honoured for for helping to prevent ethnic cleansing of the nationalist population.

We also can thank president Jimmy Carter. He refused to send a shipment of weapons to the RUC in the North. Thatcher tried to tell him they weren't sectarian. How she kept a straight face is beyond me.

Jayop

If someone says with a time machine they'd go back to the 60's to tell people to be non violent just excuses and legitimizes the 50 years of violence against catholics preceding that.

If I'd a time machine I'd be begging the majority in that time to stop denying civil rights and laying the groundwork for a civil war.

steddyeddy

Jayop wrote: »

If someone says with a time machine they'd go back to the 60's to tell people to be non violent just excuses and legitimizes the 50 years of violence against catholics preceding that.

If I'd a time machine I'd be begging the majority in that time to stop denying civil rights and laying the groundwork for a civil war.

Most intelligent people subscribe to this. A lot of people don't want to know about the sectarian state.

Noddyholder

From the ANC

The African National Congress (ANC) extends its condolences to the leadership of the Sinn Féin on the passing of Comrade Martin McGuinness, a leading figure in the Northern Ireland Republican movement. Mr. McGuinness died in Derry, Northern Ireland, on Tuesday following a short illness.

The ANC enjoys longstanding fraternal ties with Sinn Féin and is saddened at the news of the passing of a man who played a key role in the Irish Republican movement and the peace process.

Sinn Féin was a trusted ally of the African National Congress (ANC) during apartheid and its leaders stood steadfastly by our movement in support of our struggle for liberation.

The ANC has always been humbled by the example set by Sinn Féin in transitioning from the trenches of warfare to the assumption of political leadership.

As a former commander of the Irish Republican Army (IRA) and a Sinn Féin political leader, Comrade McGuinness played an instrumental role in bringing Sinn Féin, Britain, Ireland and the political parties of Northern Ireland to the negotiating table - resulting in the Good Friday Agreement of 1998. The Good Friday agreement brought peace to the region 'following decades of sectarian violence.'

Mr. McGuinness was the deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland from 2007 through January 2017, previously serving as Minister of Education in the Northern Ireland Executive (1999-2002) and stood for the Presidency of Ireland in 2011.

Mr. McGuiness will forever be remembered as a man of moral courage, as a unifier, and as 'a force for change': it is testimony to this legacy that tributes have been paid to him from across the political spectrum.

The ANC has sent its formal condolences to Sinn Féin.

FrancieBrady

steddyeddy wrote: »

Most intelligent people subscribe to this. A lot of people don't want to know about the sectarian state.

Jude Collins nails that one here.

Perhaps most ironic of all, there was little or no stress placed on what should have been an obvious question: what motivated Martin McGuinness and thousands like him to resort to violence? Was he programmed that way? Were all those IRA men and women motivated by blood-lust and hatred, a blood-lust and hatred that suddenly boiled over for no reason in the early 1970s and continued for the next two decades, until they they suddenly decided they didn’t want to hate and spill blood any more?

It can’t be stressed often enough: people like McGuinness joined the IRA knowing that their chances of being killed or imprisoned were very high. And yet they did it. Such a decision must have been motivated by something. Fifty years of unionist misrule? Attacks by the RUC and B Specials on civil rights marchers? The beating to death by the RUC of Catholic man Sammy Devenney, in his own home, in front of his children, because he had dared to participate in a civil rights march?

http://www.judecollins.com/2017/03/irony-amputated-history/

Jelle1880

Noddyholder wrote: »

From the ANC

The African National Congress (ANC) extends its condolences to the leadership of the Sinn Féin on the passing of Comrade Martin McGuinness, a leading figure in the Northern Ireland Republican movement. Mr. McGuinness died in Derry, Northern Ireland, on Tuesday following a short illness.

The ANC enjoys longstanding fraternal ties with Sinn Féin and is saddened at the news of the passing of a man who played a key role in the Irish Republican movement and the peace process.

Sinn Féin was a trusted ally of the African National Congress (ANC) during apartheid and its leaders stood steadfastly by our movement in support of our struggle for liberation.

The ANC has always been humbled by the example set by Sinn Féin in transitioning from the trenches of warfare to the assumption of political leadership.

As a former commander of the Irish Republican Army (IRA) and a Sinn Féin political leader, Comrade McGuinness played an instrumental role in bringing Sinn Féin, Britain, Ireland and the political parties of Northern Ireland to the negotiating table - resulting in the Good Friday Agreement of 1998. The Good Friday agreement brought peace to the region 'following decades of sectarian violence.'

Mr. McGuinness was the deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland from 2007 through January 2017, previously serving as Minister of Education in the Northern Ireland Executive (1999-2002) and stood for the Presidency of Ireland in 2011.

Mr. McGuiness will forever be remembered as a man of moral courage, as a unifier, and as 'a force for change': it is testimony to this legacy that tributes have been paid to him from across the political spectrum.

The ANC has sent its formal condolences to Sinn Féin.

Not exactly sure if the ANC in it's current form is the right party to talk about moral courage.

steddyeddy

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Not exactly sure if the ANC in it's current form is the right party to talk about moral courage.

Not exactly sure you have the standing to lecture the ANC on moral courage.

Jelle1880

steddyeddy wrote: »

Not exactly sure you have the standing to lecture the ANC on moral courage.

That doesn't even make any sense.

I'm only going to assume you have no idea of the current state of South Africa and the ANC's role in it. They're as far removed from the party Mandela started as can be.

steddyeddy

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That doesn't even make any sense.

I'm only going to assume you have no idea of the current state of South Africa and the ANC's role in it.

The ANC brought democracy to South Africa and destroyed aparthied. As I said I don't think there's anyone here who can lecture them on moral courage.

Jelle1880

steddyeddy wrote: »

The ANC brought democracy to South Africa and destroyed aparthied. As I said I don't think there's anyone here who can lecture them on moral courage.

I edited my post. There's a massive difference between the ANC from Mandela's days and the ANC of today. They are corrupt to the core and outright racist.

With that in mind I stand by my post that the ANC aren't ones to talk about moral courage.

steddyeddy

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I edited my post. There's a massive difference between the ANC from Mandela's days and the ANC of today. They are corrupt to the core and outright racist.

With that in mind I stand by my post that the ANC aren't ones to talk about moral courage.

Whatever about current states the ANC and Sinn Fein have long links together.

bigbrotherfan

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I edited my post. There's a massive difference between the ANC from Mandela's days and the ANC of today. They are corrupt to the core and outright racist.

With that in mind I stand by my post that the ANC aren't ones to talk about moral courage.

Same name but an age apart. It's a bit like the IRA and the way it was viewed originally and it later years.

steddyeddy

David Davis says if NI reunites with the republic it can instantly join the EU.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-northern-ireland-can-rejoin-eu-reunification-david-davis-stormont-a7653346.html#commentsDiv

Shows how much they want to get rid of it.

FrancieBrady

steddyeddy wrote: »

David Davis says if NI reunites with the republic it can instantly join the EU.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-northern-ireland-can-rejoin-eu-reunification-david-davis-stormont-a7653346.html#commentsDiv

Shows how much they want to get rid of it.

To me that kinda reads like, 'you can f**K off if you think you are getting special anything'.
Tough times ahead north of the border.

DrWu

ANC nutters. The trenches of warfare! I nearly peed myself laughing.

Marty fighting in the trenches of Brighton, Warrington and Guildford! Lol

munsterlegend

steddyeddy wrote: »

David Davis says if NI reunites with the republic it can instantly join the EU.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-northern-ireland-can-rejoin-eu-reunification-david-davis-stormont-a7653346.html#commentsDiv

Shows how much they want to get rid of it.

And that coming from the Tory 'Unionist' party. NI is fast becoming a nuisance given the current impasse. SF have no real interest in a deal at this point I'd say

armaghlad

DrWu wrote: »

ANC nutters. The trenches of warfare! I nearly peed myself laughing.

Marty fighting in the trenches of Brighton, Warrington and Guildford! Lol

Or Derry

Alf Stewart.

Just a snapshot of some of the mourners at Martin's funeral.

FrancieBrady

DrWu wrote: »

ANC nutters. The trenches of warfare! I nearly peed myself laughing.

Marty fighting in the trenches of Brighton, Warrington and Guildford! Lol

You are aware of the existence of allusion in writing? Like 'battle hardened' does not actually mean you have fought in military campaigns nor 'war weary' mean you are weary of war? :rolleyes: