RIP Martin McGuinness

eire4

Nice service I thought for Martin McGuinness, very moving. Still can't quite believe how quickly his illness became terminal.

FrancieBrady

Whatever it was, it was a masterstroke. The DUP politically snookered and it's leader attending the funeral of a former IRA commander some cynics would say because world opinion forced her too.
The world is also watching the footdraggers of the PUP issuing death threats to anyone who offers decent sympathy to a bereaved family and party.
I wonder does Fred think Long resigned for political gain too?

OldMrBrennan83

This post has been deleted.

uck51js9zml2yt

Noddyholder wrote: »

They weren't very Bulldogish when China took back Hong Kong , Even though the majority of its people wanted to stay with Britain ,Where was your Navy then ?

Rather than face the humiliation of a forcible Chinese takeover During talks with Thatcher, China planned to invade and seize Hong Kong if the negotiations set off unrest in the colony.

Thatcher later said that Deng told her bluntly that China could easily take Hong Kong by force, stating that "I could walk in and take the whole lot this afternoon", to which she replied that "there is nothing I could do to stop you, but the eyes of the world would now know what China is like".[12]

And with bretix coming up I would be thinking Gibraltar might be getting let go to as Spain is constantly pushing the boundaries there .

I was living in HK at the time. They had a lease on kowloon and hk was unsustainable on its own.

tomwaterford

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Of course it did, do you really believe the timing was all a coincidence?

Let's face it, he looked really ill when he left Stormont, he should have stepped aside three months ago, but Sinn Fein pushed the scandal as far as possible so they could get maximum mileage out if his retirement.

Or you could read it as it was....they got sick of time and again playing into the dup hand of obstruction and arrogence

No irish language act.....despite signing up for it....running completely againest the spirit of the GFA and laughing into the face of nationlists calling their bluff...more or less treating them with the same contempt as what caused the troubles to begin with


The life expectancy of what mcguiNess had was 2-3 years....theres every reason for him to expect to have had an advisory role in discussions.....but dont let these facts cloud your judgement and ruin a throlling session/taunting all over the tread òf a dead person

Esel

The clock goes forward by one hour tonight. Pity it can't go forward 100 years...

LordSutch

Or back to when the Troubles started, so that they didn't escallate . . . .

tomwaterford

LordSutch wrote: »

Or back to when the Troubles started, so that they didn't escallate . . . .

Given the behaviour and absolute contempt shown by the dup to nationlists and other minorities. .....it's very easy to see how without the protection of the GFA and other European legislation (which the dup wants to withdraw from) how the situation which unfolded between 1922 and 1969 came about


If you camnot conceive oppression is the next step after obstruction becomes the norm....what is point of explaining it to you

(This is something which gives me great concern with American politics )

FrancieBrady

LordSutch wrote: »

Or back to when the Troubles started, so that they didn't escallate . . . .

To the sectarian statelet? No thanks. That's the problem in a nutshell though, too many still want those days back, but it ain't gonna happen, bless their little cotton union jack socks.

LordSutch

tomwaterford wrote: »

If you camnot conceive oppression is the next step after obstruction becomes the norm....what is point of explaining it to you

Is it not a nice idea to travel back in time to try & stop the Troubles & save all those lives?

John Hume & Seamus Mallon had the right approach back then IMO.

(Non violent protest) Ergo no killing, no bombs, no destruction, no bloodshed.

But that's just my opinion.

FrancieBrady

LordSutch wrote: »

Is it not a nice idea to travel back in time to try & stop the Troubles & save all those lives?

John Hume & Seamus Mallon had the right approach back then IMO.

(Non violent protest) Ergo no killing, no bombs, no destruction, no bloodshed.

But that's just my opinion.

What would you have done?

steddyeddy

LordSutch wrote: »

Or back to when the Troubles started, so that they didn't escallate . . . .

Agreed. People like my uncle tried to secure civil rights for the Catholic population at the time. The response he received? Opposition from the Orange Order, the RUC and the UVF who responded to equal rights demands by burning Catholics out of their homes. Not to mention the fact that peaceful unarmed protesters were shot dead by security forces/terrorists.

Just think all of that could have been easily avoided and the peaceful method could have gained traction. Completely avoidable loss of life.

tomwaterford

LordSutch wrote: »

Is it not a nice idea to travel back in time to try & stop the Troubles & save all those lives?

John Hume & Seamus Mallon had the right approach back then IMO.

(Non violent protest) Ergo no killing, no bombs, no destruction, no bloodshed.

But that's just my opinion.

But they had no political protection/strength in law....and were and still would be treated with absolute contempt by unionists

The parity of esteem in the GFA is a massive step as it forever ends unionist instragistence and contempt of nationlists....they can not longer hide behind the rules to disrupt and run againest the spirit of the gfa and pat each other on the back that they can treat nationlists with contempt all the while playing within the rules


Those who say the GFA is an Anglo irish agreement for slow learners...clearly havnt read much on the subject



All the while....il not get it to games with a poster who ignored the need for the IRA to protect nationlists while streets of nationlists (2000 in bombay st alone) were burnt out and civil rights protesters gunned down (27 people shot on bloody sunday)

LordSutch

Regular non violent marches, strikes, go slows, shouting about it on the world stage, getting Dublin to keep jumping up & down and shouting to the British Government about the situation . . . .

Anything & everything > except the bomb & the bullet.

steddyeddy

LordSutch wrote: »

Is it not a nice idea to travel back in time to try & stop the Troubles & save all those lives?

John Hume & Seamus Mallon had the right approach back then IMO.

(Non violent protest) Ergo no killing, no bombs, no destruction, no bloodshed.

But that's just my opinion.

Completely agree but Westminsiter and the security forces didn't seem to keen on the peaceful method.

tomwaterford

LordSutch wrote: »

Regular non violent marches, strikes, go slows, shouting about it on the world stage, getting Dublin to keep jumping up & down and shouting to the British Government about the situation . . . .

Anything & evrything > except the bomb & the bullet.

Even when the non violent marches get shot off the streets by the army sent by the British government??

My gosh how many protesters would you lead to their death before your conscience kicks in?

Noddyholder

LordSutch wrote: »

Or back to when the Troubles started, so that they didn't escallate . . . .

If only you had listened to one of your hero's...back 1921.

Unionist governments ignored Edward Carson's warning in 1921 that alienating Catholics would make Northern Ireland inherently unstable. After the early 1920s, there were occasional incidents of sectarian unrest in Northern Ireland.
These included severe rioting in Belfast in the 1930s and 1950s, and the IRA's brief Northern Campaign in the 1940s and Border Campaign between 1956 and 1962, which did not enjoy broad popular support among nationalists.

After the IRA called off its campaign in 1962, Northern Ireland became relatively stable for a brief period.[48]

LordSutch

tomwaterford wrote: »

My gosh how many protesters would you lead to their death before your conscience kicks in?

Tom, I'm talking about marches without the perceived threat of violence, or marches that are not preceded by violence. I'm talking about going back to pre 68 to try & persuade people on all sides to steer clear of any violence. This is all hypothetical anyway, seeing as nobody has a time machine

I think NI could have got to where we are today (or even better), via the peaceful route.

Noddyholder

Imo the troubles started with the creation of the six counties as separate from the other 26, not in 1968/9.

steddyeddy

LordSutch wrote: »

Tom, I'm talking about marches without the perceived threat of violence, or marches that are not preceded by violence. I'm talking about going back to pre 68 to try & persuade people on all sides to steer clear of any violence. This is all hypothetical anyway, seeing as nobody has a time machine

I think NI could have got to where we are today (or even better), via the peaceful route.

I don't think you'll find many that would disagree. However there would be no NI without violence. Carson set up terror groups to oppose home rule. Live by the sword die by the sword I suppose

Cazale

600 people have applied to join Sinn Fein in the last six days.

FrancieBrady

LordSutch wrote: »

Tom, I'm talking about marches without the perceived threat of violence, or marches that are not preceded by violence. I'm talking about going back to pre 68 to try & persuade people on all sides to steer clear of any violence. This is all hypothetical anyway, seeing as nobody has a time machine

I think NI could have got to where we are today (or even better), via the peaceful route.

At no point could you have had a 'peaceful' march.

I genuinely think you have no idea how it all kicked off after that bit of navel gazing.
Insulting at best, completely unaware of the lethal sectarian stranglehold your forebears held on the place at worst.

Well done for revealing yourself.

tomwaterford

LordSutch wrote: »

Tom, I'm talking about marches without the perceived threat of violence, or marches that are not preceded by violence. I'm talking about going back to pre 68 to try & persuade people to steer clear of any violence. This is all hypothetical anyway, seeing as nobody has a time machine

I think NI could have got to where we are today (or even better), via the peaceful route.

The minute nationlists looked for equal rights loyalist set out to attack them

Attacks on marches were occurring as early as 1968.....as early as 1964 the ruc at the behest of Ian Paisley removed the tricolour from the election offices of a nationlists politians....they created the situation and turned the screw to boiling point until it kicked off...by treating nationlists with contempt and hiding behind the rules


Under foster the person I regularly seen on boards being listed as the future of unionism/it's best leader...they were attempting to do the same....treat nationlists (and other miborities) with contempt and hide behind the rules....

They signed up for something and almost immediately work the rules to play againest it's spirit

steddyeddy

If I had a time machine I would have reduced support for the violent solution via the following methods:

1. "One man, one vote" which would allow all people over the age of 18 to vote in local council elections and remove the multiple votes held by business owners - known as the "business vote".
2. An end to gerrymandering electoral wards to produce an artificial unionist majority.
3. Prevention of discrimination in the allocation of government jobs.
4. Prevention of discrimination in the allocation of council housing.
5. The removal of the Special Powers Act.
6. The disbandment of the almost entirely Protestant Ulster Special Constabulary (B Specials).

You might recognise them as the demands made by the NI civil rights movement. Simple really. A lot of lives lost because of the stubbornness of the British in relation to making changes.

LordSutch

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I genuinely think you have no idea how it all kicked off after that bit of navel gazing.
Insulting at best, completely unaware of the lethal sectarian stranglehold your forebears held on the place at worst.

Well done for revealing yourself.

Revealing my desire for an alternative to the Troubles! (what's revealing about that)?

Is there any point to me posting anything on here?

I haven't dissed MMG in this thread, not have I spoken i'll of him, yet you still manage to put me down and make a suggestion about "revealing myself" as somebody who has suggested that it would have been better if the Troubles hadn't happened, re loss of life.

FFS Francie, you never miss an opportunity.

...and then several posters thank you

A Dub in Glasgo

LordSutch wrote: »

Revealing my desire for an alternative to the Troubles!

I believe everyone on this website wishes there was an alternative to the troubles so you are not alone. The only thing different is what would be given as the alternative

LordSutch

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

I believe everyone on this website wishes there was an alternative to the troubles so you are not alone. The only thing different is what would be given as the alternative

I mentioned the alternative, which was to arrive where we are today, but without all the bloodshed.

I realise I'm fighting an uphill battle on here.

I'm outa here, bye.
===========

FrancieBrady

LordSutch wrote: »

Revealing my desire for an alternative to the Troubles! (what's revealing about that)?

Is there any point to me posting anything on here?

I haven't dissed MMG in this thread, not have I spoken i'll of him, yet you still manage to put me down and make a suggestion about "revealing myself" as somebody who has suggested that it would have been better if the Troubles hadn't happened, re loss of life.

FFS Francie, you never miss an opportunity.

Of course it would have been better if the conflict/war hadn't happened but you positing a fantasy of breezing back in your time machine and doing something to stop it and ignoring that it was the people you support who would have beaten your 'peaceful' ass off the streets again and again is just insulting.
I was cutting you some slack suggesting you were unaware of what happened.

A Dub in Glasgo

LordSutch wrote: »

I mentioned the alternative, which was to arrive where we are today, but without all the bloodshed.

There are many ways to get to that destination, yours was one of them. The issue here is you do not recognise or acknowledge the other ways

LordSutch

Honestly there'e no point in me posting .....

I still haven't said a bad word about him on here, yet you persist Francie.

This is my last & final post.

Goodluck.

PS; I didn't agree with the violent way.