Clerical officer - Low pay - Dublin

Mrwade

The_Conductor wrote: »

Thats EO salary- which arguably is also well out of sync. In addition- we have the manner in which the CO and EO grades are treated far more favourably in local authorities- than in the civil service itself- which is ripe for the respective unions to argue cases over.

How are cos treated more favourably in the local authorities

uck51js9zml2yt

Mrwade wrote: »

How are cos treated more favourably in the local authorities

27 days holidays in DCC v 22 in the CS !!

Arcade_Tryer

noodler wrote: »

Its an entry level clerical position. It isn't a graduate job. It. Doesn't require any specific qualifications or decent experience.

It may not require specific qualifications, but it does require decent experience. And the application process is arguably more stringent than a lot of graduate jobs. There are two rounds of aptitude tests (unsupervised and supervised) which test numerical and verbal reasoning, and a final interview which must be passed to be placed on to quite a competitive panel, where you must wait for your position to be reached. So, not exactly handing in a CV, having a word with the manager, and starting work the next day job type of job either.

Having said that, 28k would be well above the market rate for the role. But there really is no excuse for the a Clerical Officer not to be paid the living wage, which would result in a salary of circa 23/24k.

noodler

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

It may not require specific qualifications, but it does require decent experience. And the application process is arguably more stringent than a lot of graduate jobs. There are two rounds of aptitude tests (unsupervised and supervised) which test numerical and verbal reasoning, and a final interview which must be passed to be placed on to quite a competitive panel, where you must wait for your position to be reached. So, not exactly handing in a CV, having a word with the manager, and starting work the next day job type of job either.

Having said that, 28k would be well above the market rate for the role. But there really is no excuse for the a Clerical Officer not to be paid the living wage, which would result in a salary of circa 23/24k.

That's par for the course for all public service jobs and the reason for it is sheer numbers. Practically anyone can apply, they need the exams etc to cut the applicants down to an interviewable size.

Their salary starts at 22 as of today. No pension related deduction (PRD) payable either.

The_Conductor

Mrwade wrote: »

How are cos treated more favourably in the local authorities

1 day annual leave in lieu of working on church holy days (I'm not joking).
In some local authorities where there are services provided on a 6 day basis (local authority sports centres, public libraries etc etc)- many COs get the Saturday of any bank holiday weekend off, in addition to the bankholiday itself (aka there are two days leave given for each bank holiday). I realise this particular perk doesn't apply across the board- however, according to a recent PQ it applies/applied in 7 different local authority areas in 2016.

EOs and HEOs treated in a similar manner in local authorities- with significant additional leave to their civil service counterparts (in one instance one local authority granted COs 37 days paid annual leave- however, that was an outlier- the norm is 25-26 which then gets further bumped up...........)

It is a bit nutty that its not standardised.

The_Conductor

noodler wrote: »

That's par for the course for all public service jobs and the reason for it is sheer numbers. Practically anyone can apply, they need the exams etc to cut the applicants down to an interviewable size.

Their salary is 22 as of yesterday. No pension related deduction (PRD) payable either.

There most certainly is a PRD- I'm not sure why you imagine there isn't?
The union who represent the grade (the CPSU) have two separate cases at present at council over it.

Mrwade

The_Conductor wrote: »

1 day annual leave in lieu of working on church holy days (I'm not joking).
In some local authorities where there are services provided on a 6 day basis (local authority sports centres, public libraries etc etc)- many COs get the Saturday of any bank holiday weekend off, in addition to the bankholiday itself (aka there are two days leave given for each bank holiday). I realise this particular perk doesn't apply across the board- however, according to a recent PQ it applies/applied in 7 different local authority areas in 2016.

EOs and HEOs treated in a similar manner in local authorities- with significant additional leave to their civil service counterparts (in one instance one local authority granted COs 37 days paid annual leave- however, that was an outlier- the norm is 25-26 which then gets further bumped up...........)

It is a bit nutty that its not standardised.

Yea I worked in both and they both seemed very similar. I thought the original post was saying the council had more benefits on a daily basis,
Yea I can't see why the annual leave is different though, the unions should fight for more

uck51js9zml2yt

As the conductor said, some CoCo staff get Saturdays paid. A case in point in library staff. Do you ever see a library open on Saturday of a bank holiday?

When I started in the CS from the CoCo, HR informed me I was getting €14 per year less in the CS. So much for parity!

Calina

noodler wrote: »

Compared to the private sector.

You can read the report.


Why should a CO be paid 28k?

Its an entry level clerical position. It isn't a graduate job. It. Doesn't require any specific qualifications or decent experience.

Not said to be nasty but by the same logic youd have to knock every other Civil Service position up by 7k.

Because where a metric tonne of them work the cost of living is excessive. 28KE sounds like a nice salary until you have to pay rent in Dublin.

Again, both the private and public sector would benefit if the primary cost of living in Dublin was a lot lower. If you want to keep salaries low, then the cost of accommodation is going to have to fall.

This is the reality. It really doesn't matter whether you think the job is beneath this kind of salary or not. It is completely out of whack with the cost of living in Dublin.

noodler

The_Conductor wrote: »

There most certainly is a PRD- I'm not sure why you imagine there isn't?
The union who represent the grade (the CPSU) have two separate cases at present at council over it.

Eh.

The PRD has an income threshold. This is well above 22k COs now start on.

No imagining on my part. Just facts.

Mrwade

Laurie Purple Snorer wrote: »

27 days holidays in DCC v 22 in the CS !!

Yes the holidays are better, same jobs on a day to days basis though, can work up more flexI in cs

The_Conductor

noodler wrote: »

Eh.

The PRD has an income threshold. This is well above 22k COs now start on.

No imagining on my part. Just facts.

There are a range of pension related deductions- not all of which are waived below certain income thresholds (they do tend to be tiered though). @22k- you're probably paying 6% towards the various pension schemes (such as Widows and Orphans- or whatever the hell thats called these days).

Not all PRDs are waived on an income threshold basis- some are- however there are a plethora that aren't.

The_Conductor

Mrwade wrote: »

Yes the holidays are better, same jobs on a day to days basis though, can work up more flexI in cs

Depends- not all civil service posts have flexi- many civil service COs- such as those in the local offices- don't necessarily have flexi. Its a privillege that isn't available across the board.

noodler

The_Conductor wrote: »

There are a range of pension related deductions- not all of which are waived below certain income thresholds (they do tend to be tiered though). @22k- you're probably paying 6% towards the various pension schemes (such as Widows and Orphans- or whatever the hell thats called these days).

Not all PRDs are waived on an income threshold basis- some are- however there are a plethora that aren't.

What on earth..

I specifically said Pension Related Deduction (PRD). Stop moving the goalposts.

Are you aware of the difference between this levy brought in during the crisis and the traditional pension contributions?

Bottom line. COs on 22k do not pay anything on the PRD due to the provisions of the Lansdowne Road Agreement.

Mrwade

Laurie Purple Snorer wrote: »

As the conductor said, some CoCo staff get Saturdays paid. A case in point in library staff. Do you ever see a library open on Saturday of a bank holiday?

When I started in the CS from the CoCo, HR informed me I was getting €14 per year less in the CS. So much for parity!

Most of the council staff don't work in the library though,majority dont get paid for saturday. €14 less per year ha, wouldnt lose any sleep over that ha

The_Conductor

noodler wrote: »

What on earth..

I specifically said Pension Related Deduction (PRD). Stop moving the goalposts.

Are you aware of the difference between this levy brought in during the crisis and the traditional pension contributions?

Bottom line. COs on 22k do not pay anything on the PRD due to the provisions of the Lansdowne Road Agreement.

That is one specific deduction- that low paid COs are exempt from.
They still pay on average 6% for a pension they can't claim (under COPC rules- their reduced civil service pension is below the PRSI contributory pension- which they are also paying towards- as is everyone else- so they pay 6% for nothing (other than their lumpsum of course).

I'm not moving goalposts- you didn't specify that you only meant the emergency measures- we've had two separate threads in this forum discussing the other pension related deductions for COs in the last 10 days- the emergency deduction- is just one item on the list...........

noodler

The_Conductor wrote: »

That is one specific deduction- that low paid COs are exempt from.
They still pay on average 6% for a pension they can't claim (under COPC rules- their reduced civil service pension is below the PRSI contributory pension- which they are also paying towards- as is everyone else- so they pay 6% for nothing (other than their lumpsum of course).

I'm not moving goalposts- you didn't specify that you only meant the emergency measures- we've had two separate threads in this forum discussing the other pension related deductions for COs in the last 10 days- the emergency deduction- is just one item on the list...........

Jesus Christ.

You were wrong OK.

I specifically said the PRD.

Its a specific levy.

Stop moving the goalposts.

You now know it. Doesn't kick in until income hits 25k.

No more.comments directed towards me about general pension contributions every public servant has to make.

Mrwade

The_Conductor wrote: »

Depends- not all civil service posts have flexi- many civil service COs- such as those in the local offices- don't necessarily have flexi. Its a privillege that isn't available across the board.

Yes that's similar with council, there is flexI in every dept up to a certain grade but some don't have as much because they deal with the public.
Also down to the head of a dept, if your needed there until a certain time then that's your hours, but usually it's fine

Anongeneric

Who is this lad coming on here with balanced developed views, offering evidence for his opinions???
This is not what boards is about!!
Is there no Mod on tonight or what's going on?

BoatMad wrote: »

I will say this , I have met her compatriots and I am very impressed with the calibre of recent entrants into the CS. If half of this talent is harnessed and not killed by the system , we are bringing up very capable and competent public servants .and yes I think they are fully accepting off the need too compete and move to accelerate their careers . This is , as you say is a good thing

so I hope there is room for all this talent to bloom and prosper, we need good clever , motivated public servants and we need a systems that progresses them.

I will say one thing the grade she is at provides incredible opportunity's for training , with access to management courses etc . very impressive and its an area that is very poorly handled in the private sector , relying almost totally on an individuals personal motivation.

I was of course a business owning capitalist ( now semi retired ) , so I have no credibility.

all in all the modern CS workplace is not a bad place to be, despite entry pay being mediocre.

The real issue is semi skilled private industry , this is an area experiencing downwards social mobility and one that is storing up lots off issues. Recessions often allow/force ( delete as your biases allow) private companies to reduce salaries or remove benefits, Hard on people, promotions are often at the price of redundancies too. Its very difficult for mediocre and non academic kids to get a fair start , hard to see what to do . Not everyone can be a high flyer or aspire to that but society needs to be able to provide them with the means to live reasonably. Arguably their parents are likely to have a better standard of living then they ever will.

uck51js9zml2yt

Mrwade wrote: »

Most of the council staff don't work in the library though,majority dont get paid for saturday. €14 less per year ha, wouldnt lose any sleep over that ha

Says the man only in the door a wet day

Its the point of it though. There is no parity between the PS an CS,, no matter what the mandarins say!

Mrwade

Laurie Purple Snorer wrote: »

Says the man only in the door a wet day

Its the point of it though. There is no parity between the PS an CS,, no matter what the mandarins say!

LOL I think you started in the CS a week before me,
Yea there are differences, some better some not, cs also have the option of transfers around the country,
Just have to go for the one that's suits you better

wench

The_Conductor wrote: »

That is one specific deduction- that low paid COs are exempt from.
They still pay on average 6% for a pension they can't claim (under COPC rules- their reduced civil service pension is below the PRSI contributory pension- which they are also paying towards- as is everyone else- so they pay 6% for nothing (other than their lumpsum of course).

I'm not moving goalposts- you didn't specify that you only meant the emergency measures- we've had two separate threads in this forum discussing the other pension related deductions for COs in the last 10 days- the emergency deduction- is just one item on the list...........

The anomaly of low paid staff paying towards a pension when they wouldn't get much more than the OAP was addressed a number of years ago.
The 3.5% deduction only applies on amounts over twice the OAP pension rate. So a CO would have to be earning over about €25K before that one starts to kick in.

The 1.5% deductions for spouse & children, and lump sum are the only ones that apply to the full salary.

Samsgirl

Laurie Purple Snorer wrote: »

As the conductor said, some CoCo staff get Saturdays paid. A case in point in library staff. Do you ever see a library open on Saturday of a bank holiday?

When I started in the CS from the CoCo, HR informed me I was getting €14 per year less in the CS. So much for parity!

The library in Waterford City centre is open on the Saturday of a bank holiday weekend.with the exception of Easter.
The library in Ardkeen is the same. I'm not sure about the other ones.

doc22

The only way 28k would work is if clerical officers were willing to give up increments for 10 or more years?

Technocentral

noodler wrote:

Not said to be nasty but by the same logic youd have to knock every other Civil Service position up by 7k.

I would for those currently on up to about 35k in Dublin.

Technocentral

doc22 wrote:

The only way 28k would work is if clerical officers were willing to give up increments for 10 or more years?

Thats ridiculous, rent and bills will not be going down over the next 10 years, the government should not have its staff on poverty wages in Dublin, it should start on 28 and go up incrementally, state should set an example to private sector not stoop to its levels.

jp101

Technocentral wrote: »

Thats ridiculous, rent and bills will not be going down over the next 10 years, the government should not have its staff on poverty wages in Dublin, it should start on 28 and go up incrementally, state should set an example to private sector not stoop to its levels.

So 28k is a reasonable salary for that job and is then adjusted for inflation. I'd go for that and have no increments. I think the problem with PS salaries is the ridiculous range of increments.

AndrewJRenko

jp101 wrote: »

So 28k is a reasonable salary for that job and is then adjusted for inflation. I'd go for that and have no increments. I think the problem with PS salaries is the ridiculous range of increments.

You know there are no inflationary increases, right? So given the degree of inflation and particularly rental price increases, how on earth to you expect people to keep their heads above water without decent increments.

BoatMad

Anongeneric wrote: »

Who is this lad coming on here with balanced developed views, offering evidence for his opinions???
This is not what boards is about!!
Is there no Mod on tonight or what's going on?

Still here !

BoatMad

Technocentral wrote: »

Thats ridiculous, rent and bills will not be going down over the next 10 years, the government should not have its staff on poverty wages in Dublin, it should start on 28 and go up incrementally, state should set an example to private sector not stoop to its levels.

Err , the state is funded by the private sector. It doesn't exist in a vacumn

To put your comments another way , the state should take as much as its needs to pay as much as it wants to PS/CS

wages in one sector have to reflect overall wages , serous imbalances generate anger