Clerical officer - Low pay - Dublin

Calina

pilly wrote: »

Lux23 wrote: »

I share with my partner and we pay about 400 each a month so it is not that bad. Lots of my friends are paying an average of 700 a month to live in fairly average rooms.

But let me do the maths for you. My wage was 1600 and I was 32 so I had legacy debts that had increased when I was unemployed.

Rent - 400 -500 (pay it by the week so some months it works out more)
Loan - 200
Electricity - 40
TV/Broadband - 40
Mobile - 30
Health insurance - 35 (cheapest one I could get)
Travel - 120
Groceries/lunch/toiletries - 200
Bins - 20
Clothes - 20/30 (Rarely buy any clothes)

So that would leave me with about a 100 a week for anything else like going out, taxis, savings, birthdays etc.

I wasn't exactly living the life of reilly on that wage and I was lucky my rent was so low.

I can do maths, thank you very much and I've lived on social welfare so I know what it's like to live on a low income.

I never said it was enjoyable to live on that money, all I said was it was possible.

€100 a week extra is plenty of money by the way.

I would have thought someone who lived on low income on social welfare would have sympathy for people working on low income.

100e gets swallowed up fierce fast if you get sick by the way. I got shingles last summer. That cost 150e between doc and meds.

Also most people's big bill is paid monthly. Fortnightly pay means you dont get a full months income every time that bill falls due. Fine if you are earning 3k a month. Less fine if you are earning 800e a fortnight.

pilly

Calina wrote: »

I would have thought someone who lived on low income on social welfare would have sympathy for people working on low income.

100e gets swallowed up fierce fast if you get sick by the way. I got shingles last summer. That cost 150e between doc and meds.

Also most people's big bill is paid monthly. Fortnightly pay means you dont get a full months income every time that bill falls due. Fine if you are earning 3k a month. Less fine if you are earning 800e a fortnight.

I do of course have sympathy for anyone working on a low income. My answers have been in response to people saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to live in Dublin on a low salary.

I'm making the point that it's not impossible and also that other benefits like so much sick leave are good ones to have.

They're the only points I'm making.

You know I could just throw out the old argument that always thrown at me by public sector workers "if you don't like it get another job". But I'm sick of that tripe being thrown out to end an argument.

All I'm trying to say is face up to reality. We can't have everything we want in life.

€100 disposable income is plenty to have every week, I'm sorry if people don't agree with that then it's nothing more than expecting everything handed to them on a plate in their very first job (in some cases their first and last job).

pilly

Deleted User wrote: »

I've worked in the private sector all my life. Nearly 25 years, at companies ranging from household names to small start-ups. I've never once been deducted pay for time off sick and I've never once been asked for a doctor's note.

The standard response to any medical issue, including an issue with a child, is "take as much time as you need". That's what good employers do and it's why good employees work for them.

I accept my experience might not be typical but I doubt the majority of private companies don't pay employees on sick leave, and certainly not if they have been signed off by a doctor.

Well my experience is exactly the opposite in 30 years of plenty of jobs as well.

Cyrus

im not sure if the point has been made before but trainee accountants and solicitors at the big firms hardly get paid much more than that starting out.

and probably work x2 the hours for periods of the year at least.

Lux23

Solicitors and accountants are guaranteed much larger wages once they qualify. With the public service you have no guarantee of a higher wage other than your increments. And at the most at CO level its not enough to purchase a home in Dublin anyway.

El Tarangu

Lux23 wrote: »

Solicitors and accountants are guaranteed much larger wages once they qualify. With the public service you have no guarantee of a higher wage other than your increments. And at the most at CO level its not enough to purchase a home in Dublin anyway.

Solicitors and accountants typically will have trained for a lot longer than someone who is working as a CO, and will have less job security than someone working in the PS.

If a CO or a solicitor or an accountant are unhappy with their pay and conditions, they can always change job.

Cyrus

Lux23 wrote: »

Solicitors and accountants are guaranteed much larger wages once they qualify. With the public service you have no guarantee of a higher wage other than your increments. And at the most at CO level its not enough to purchase a home in Dublin anyway.

once they qualify?

You mean if they qualify.

The point is that most jobs out of college pay very little, its up to the person what they make of it.

pilly

pilly wrote: »

Well my experience is exactly the opposite in 30 years of plenty of jobs as well.

Who have you worked for who deducts from salary for a day of certified sick leave? I am genuinely curious. If you don't want to name names describe the company.

pilly

Deleted User wrote: »

Who have you worked for who deducts from salary for a day of certified sick leave? I am genuinely curious. If you don't want to name names describe the company.

Motor Trade (numerous companies), Restaurant Business, Entertainment Industry, Manufacturing, Retail. Not one of them have any official sick pay.

PMBC

The_Conductor wrote: »

Not really when you factor in the deductions that are unique to the public sector-

Usc
Paye
Prsi
Prd
Pension Surv 1.5%
Pension (Lump Sum)
Pension 3.5%
CPSU 11.40

USC- fine
PAYE- fine
PRSI- fine
PRD (Pension related deduction)- not fine- the salary doesn't support this deduction. Depends on your salary- but for an SO or EO- 4.5% is typical
Pension Surv 1.5% (a flatrate 1.5% deduction) for whats colloquially known as 'the widows and orphans scheme'. - Not fine- good luck to anyone trying to claim it......
Pension (Lump Sum) - another 1.5% deduction
Pension 3.5% (once again- on this salary- you'll only get the PRSI pension anyway- so why pay for something that won't get you anything?)
CPSU - that's a union dues

In total- aside from all the normal deductions- you're paying 11% towards pension contributions for something you can't claim......... Actually- that's nuts. Is there any way for COs to opt out of the central pension schemes? If a CO were to start today- and view the job as a part-time job while they're bring up kids, or whatever- they're getting totally gipped by all the deductions.

Are you sure about the 3.5%? I remember the 1.5% but the other seems lower than my memory. Perhaps there are different rates for public servants compared to civil servants

PMBC

jp101 wrote: »

That is quite an achievement, well done. My point is that the nature of the public sector pay scales is that the increment structure just means you have to turn up to get the next pay increase. The excellent, the average and the plain useless get the same pay increase.

I agree with you on that and it is well recognised by those who do work. Surprisingly, in the early noughties, a survey of entry level COs in a local authority had that as their biggest 'gripe' - those fellow workers who just turned up and were treated the same.

Chaos Black

From talking to other new entrants who started within a similar timeframe, the type of work/skills required/workload can really depend on your placement. Some CO's will be doing relatively low skilled work, others not.

The impression I got, was allot of new entrants are graduates with prior work experience. As such, they'll be looking to move up the ladder and/or be looking for opportunities elsewhere.

The contract is okay for a new entrant imo, when you factor in how many hours you actually work and the benefits. We certainly aren't on the gold standard many of our colleagues would be though. It's not a package that will keep new entrants without families etc from looking for better career prospects.

I knew that going in though. The civil service doesn't get slated for no reason.

dee75

Lux23 wrote: »

Solicitors and accountants are guaranteed much larger wages once they qualify. With the public service you have no guarantee of a higher wage other than your increments. And at the most at CO level its not enough to purchase a home in Dublin anyway.

In Dublin maybe. As a solicitor working in a small country practice I know a lot of younger solicitors qualified a few years who'd be lucky to earn 40k a year. And that's after 4 years in college and 2.5 year apprenticeship and huge law society fees.

Technocentral

snowflaker wrote:

Excellent pension and promotion prospects

Not excellent promotion prospects, where did you hear that?

Arcade_Tryer

Technocentral wrote: »

Not excellent promotion prospects, where did you hear that?

There are plenty of promotion opportunities on stream in the civil service. And obviously a lot of competition. So a better way of expressing it might be, excellent promotion prospects for capable or outstanding candidates.

snowflaker

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

There are plenty of promotion opportunities on stream in the civil service. And obviously a lot of competition. So a better way of expressing it might be, excellent promotion prospects for capable or outstanding candidates.

Yes. If 21K is beneath some then surely they must be excellent candidates for jobs up the ladder

Darkglasses

To actually focus on the topic you brought up - yes, the CO entry wage is extremely low, and it's particularly painful if you live in Dublin. Pay restoration will hopefully bring it back to a more reasonable level.

Cyrus

Darkglasses wrote: »

To actually focus on the topic you brought up - yes, the CO entry wage is extremely low, and it's particularly painful if you live in Dublin. Pay restoration will hopefully bring it back to a more reasonable level.

No it's not

It's the same as most graduate jobs

AndrewJRenko

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

There are plenty of promotion opportunities on stream in the civil service. And obviously a lot of competition.

Could you define 'plenty' please?

Darkglasses

Cyrus wrote: »

No it's not

It's the same as most graduate jobs

Can you show me a statistic that backs up your claim?

It appears to be well below the average, particularly in Dublin. For example:

http://www.thejournal.ie/graduate-survey-2857721-Jul2016/

http://www.sigmarrecruitment.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Sigmar-Recruitment-Salary-Guide-Ireland-2016.pdf

Arcade_Tryer

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Could you define 'plenty' please?

Well, for starters, the first page of this forum currently contains 4 separate Civil Service recruitment campaigns at grades higher than clerical officer.

It's also well known that there will be significant numbers of Civil Servants retiring in the next decade, many at higher grades. This combined with increased Government current spending means there will be plenty of opportunities for ambitious and capable people.

Cyrus wrote: »

No it's not

It's the same as most graduate jobs

Most graduate jobs programmes pay more. And the ones that don't do so because the potential for very high earnings after a year or two of low pay is pretty much guaranteed. Whatever way you want to measure it, the fact that the Government won't even pay its workers a living wage i.e. €11.50 per hour, is fairly damning, and indicative of the two tier culture that exists in pretty much every facet of Ireland's economy.

AndrewJRenko

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Well, for starters, the first page of this forum currently contains 4 separate Civil Service recruitment campaigns at grades higher than clerical officer.

It's also well known that there will be significant numbers of Civil Servants retiring in the next decade, many at higher grades. This combined with increased Government current spending means there will be plenty of opportunities for ambitious and capable people.

So no actual numbers then?

loyatemu

what do COs actually do?

Arcade_Tryer

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So no actual numbers then?

Well, I'm not privy to department numbers, but I think it's pretty obvious that there is a large recruitment drive currently happening, and that it will continue for the next few years due to the ensuing retirements. Unless all of these campaigns are just my imagination...just my imagination...just my imagination.

BoatMad

I have a daughter in private industry and a daughter in the CS. The private one , is on the job at 8am and rarely leaves before 8pm, she's on 25K, she has a honours degree, and is 1years working experience , she gets a free food and a good health and dental plan and gym membership


The other recently joined the CS at basically A0 grade after 4 years in private industry her salary was nearly halved, but she is keen to progress in a field she is interested in and I have no concerns that she will not succeed,
but she's on around 30K , but in fairness with flexitime , she's in at 10 and out at 6 etc

I know both work hard, but the private role is punishing and the moneys is mediocre, there is no overtime, and this is a well known Tech company in Dublin

the fact remains that the average public sector worker is earning more then the average private sector worker

the other thing is NO private person can build an effective pension , yet a CS can expect a reasonable one, sure not as good as previously but better then anything in the private sector. You would have to put away nearly a million euros to get an annuity that would pay similar to a CS pension . thats not possible

so its horses for courses

PS , both survive on their salaries m both rent with someone else in decent accommodation , both walk to work etc


one is going to rome, the other is currently on week in France , so they can afford a few things. but they are both very careful with money

life is tough for young people today , when I graduated as a engineer, my first job in 1982 paid 8,8k a year , 3 years later it paid 23 K , I have the greatest sympathy for people todays starting off.

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I have a daughter in private industry and a daughter in the CS. The private one , is on the job at 8am and rarely leaves before 8pm, she's on 25K, she has a honours degree, and is 1years working experience , she gets a free food and a good health and dental plan and gym membership


The other recently joined the CS at basically A0 grade after 4 years in private industry her salary was nearly halved, but she is keen to progress in a field she is interested in and I have no concerns that she will not succeed,
but she's on around 30K , but in fairness with flexitime , she's in at 10 and out at 6 etc

I know both work hard, but the private role is punishing and the moneys is mediocre, there is no overtime, and this is a well known Tech company in Dublin

the fact remains that the average public sector worker is earning more then the average private sector worker

the other thing is NO private person can build an effective pension , yet a CS can expect a reasonable one, sure not as good as previously but better then anything in the private sector. You would have to put away nearly a million euros to get an annuity that would pay similar to a CS pension . thats not possible

so its horses for courses

PS , both survive on their salaries m both rent with someone else in decent accommodation , both walk to work etc


one is going to rome, the other is currently on week in France , so they can afford a few things. but they are both very careful with money

life is tough for young people today , when I graduated as a engineer, my first job in 1982 paid 8,8k a year , 3 years later it paid 23 K , I have the greatest sympathy for people todays starting off.

I'm not jumping on this, as i think its a fair and interesting comparison and on both sides of the debate in this thread i see plenty right and wrong from my POV.

But a few things:

Dental, health, free food, gym? These are significant perks! Worth a lot, annualised i would think.

A lot less work experience too. But that said the AO will go up to 60k in time without needing to get promoted so it's a good wide scale.

There is very little point to comparing 'average' private sector worker Vs public. The lower end private sector jobs in retail pay buttons and tbh I'd be out marching for their terms and conditions long before i was moaning about CO rates.

There's also a lot of research done around the qualifications typical in the public service, at the lower end the educational profile is far higher than in the private.

Set that against the fact that no public sector worker will ever become a billionaire, etc. The range is not comparable. Better to break down the actual roles and area of expertise if one must compare. But one shouldn't, in my view!

Next: plenty of private sector workers build up excellent pensions! I don't understand your contention. And the new single pension scheme is a career average defined benefit that only benefits the officer over and above the contributory state pension, which that officer pays for anyway. The days of the gold plated public pension are gone, but if you are promoted quickly and serve the full 40 you get a good pension- from the figures i know from all of my private sector friends it is not a vastly better deal than any of them enjoy in similar circumstances, once employer matching kicks in etc. So to claim the pension as a unique and huge benefit for a low grade new entrants is demonstrably incorrect I'm afraid.


Either way they sound like a pair that won't do badly for themselves from what you're saying.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not jumping on this, as i think its a fair and interesting comparison and on both sides of the debate in this thread i see plenty right and wrong from my POV.

But a few things:

Dental, health, free food, gym? These are significant perks! Worth a lot, annualised i would think.

well yes worth a bit for someone on low pay , of little benefit as you get more money , its really a trick to keep you in the building. All the techies play that game . The food is restaurant quality , but a perk is just that hard to quantify into money

A lot less work experience too.

yes the younger one is close to a graduate starting off.

But that said the AO will go up to 60k in time without needing to get promoted so it's a good wide scale.

yes sure and the elder is very competitive , so I expect her to do well. but 60K is not great money after all that , 100K is reasonable good salary after a conventional career . They will all for example earn way less then I did as I progressed .

There is very little point to comparing 'average' private sector worker Vs public. The lower end private sector jobs in retail pay buttons and tbh I'd be out marching for their terms and conditions long before i was moaning about CO rates.

sure, I agree with that

There's also a lot of research done around the qualifications typical in the public service, at the lower end the educational profile is far higher than in the private.

wont dispute that, credentialism in the CS is far greater then in private industry

Next: plenty of private sector workers build up excellent pensions! I don't understand your contention. And the new single pension scheme is a career average defined benefit that only benefits the officer over and above the contributory state pension, which that officer pays for anyway. The days of the gold plated public pension are gone, but if you are promoted quickly and serve the full 40 you get a good pension- from the figures i know from all of my private sector friends it is not a vastly better deal than any of them enjoy in similar circumstances, once employer matching kicks in etc. So to claim the pension as a unique and huge benefit for a low grade new entrants is demonstrably incorrect I'm afraid.

its interesting to have an accrual calculation done on an annuity to say give you 30% of an expected final salary in perpetuity , and what the contributions would be . remember in many cases there is no employer contribution in private employment . The number is actually is staggering and there is a huge huge pensions time bomb coming in the next 2-3 decades . ring a broker and ask whats need, you'll be shocked

( The position of the self employed is now atrocious , in that regard, they will be working till they are dead )

Either way they sound like a pair that won't do badly for themselves from what you're saying.

no , thats the truth , they have the key benefits of coming from a house with two professional parents , the best education money could buy ( I say that without shame ) and they are diligent , bright and arrived in the job market in a recession , which toughens everyone up very fast. Girls are also progressing up the ladder faster too.

as a comparison , its interesting that the elders boyfriend is a professional finance guy in a merchant bank , same type of qualifications , he's on 55K ( with substantial bonus as well)


But its still a hard graft , The CS one has a possibility of a mortgage ( but is unlikely to need one ), the younger one hasn't a hope . in the tech industry private job security is virtually non existent, its close to a gig economy right now.

I wouldn't wish youth on the young right now

PS I married to a senior CS , so I know all the grades and the old versus new. ( and spending her pension !!!!_), my father was also a senior CS too , many years ago ( he was very complimentary of charlie haughty !!! as minister for Health )

the summary is that I think things are " OK " in the broadest sense for a dublin well educated young person from a background that has given them as many supports as possible, it gets hard fast for people without some of those advantages .

Note the competition for the AO position was intense , vastly over subscribed ( 30 to 1 ) , three rounds of competitive interview , etc etc , people flew home from all around the world !!!!

My god it's almost like having a reasonable conversation so it is. We must be doing it wrong.

To take up a point made earlier, someone had questioned promotional prospects in the CS. They wanted figures.

Don't have figures. But i worked in a department with a heavy component of new, younger officers in the past four years and i would estimate that of those i worked with today three years ago fully half have been promoted at least once. I'm talking from a pool of about 200 here, not a tiny office.

A significant proportion of that half were promoted again in that time.

There's a mini-boom of internal, interdepartmental and open recruitment ongoing in the past few years.

Yep, you have to compete and qualify. Yep, you have to have worked above and beyond your peers to succeed. Yep, ongoing study will be expected. Yep, you have to move around and possibly work in an area of expertise you didn't expect for career reasons. All perfectly normal and healthy in the private sector.

My direct experience, replicated many times around me, is that a new joined to the CS has plenty of good opportunity to progress quickly.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

My god it's almost like having a reasonable conversation so it is. We must be doing it wrong.

To take up a point made earlier, someone had questioned promotional prospects in the CS. They wanted figures.

Don't have figures. But i worked in a department with a heavy component of new, younger officers in the past four years and i would estimate that of those i worked with today three years ago fully half have been promoted at least once. I'm talking from a pool of about 200 here, not a tiny office.

A significant proportion of that half were promoted again in that time.

There's a mini-boom of internal, interdepartmental and open recruitment ongoing in the past few years.

Yep, you have to compete and qualify. Yep, you have to have worked above and beyond your peers to succeed. Yep, ongoing study will be expected. Yep, you have to move around and possibly work in an area of expertise you didn't expect for career reasons. All perfectly normal and healthy in the private sector.

My direct experience, replicated many times around me, is that a new joined to the CS has plenty of good opportunity to progress quickly.

I will say this , I have met her compatriots and I am very impressed with the calibre of recent entrants into the CS. If half of this talent is harnessed and not killed by the system , we are bringing up very capable and competent public servants .and yes I think they are fully accepting off the need too compete and move to accelerate their careers . This is , as you say is a good thing

so I hope there is room for all this talent to bloom and prosper, we need good clever , motivated public servants and we need a systems that progresses them.

I will say one thing the grade she is at provides incredible opportunity's for training , with access to management courses etc . very impressive and its an area that is very poorly handled in the private sector , relying almost totally on an individuals personal motivation.

I was of course a business owning capitalist ( now semi retired ) , so I have no credibility.

all in all the modern CS workplace is not a bad place to be, despite entry pay being mediocre.

The real issue is semi skilled private industry , this is an area experiencing downwards social mobility and one that is storing up lots off issues. Recessions often allow/force ( delete as your biases allow) private companies to reduce salaries or remove benefits, Hard on people, promotions are often at the price of redundancies too. Its very difficult for mediocre and non academic kids to get a fair start , hard to see what to do . Not everyone can be a high flyer or aspire to that but society needs to be able to provide them with the means to live reasonably. Arguably their parents are likely to have a better standard of living then they ever will.

FrStone

Cyrus wrote: »

im not sure if the point has been made before but trainee accountants and solicitors at the big firms hardly get paid much more than that starting out.

and probably work x2 the hours for periods of the year at least.

As someone who is a trainee accountant, I started on slightly more than a CO, however after two years I'm earning slightly more than the top salary in the CO scale.

My sick leave is a million times better than the civil service. I get my health insurance paid for.

By the time my contract is up I will be on significantly more than the top of the CO salary scale.

The CO has a better pension than me, but considering a new entrant now only gets a pension based on his average salary - I don't think there will be much of a difference. Especially considering I don't have to pay a pension levy.