Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Options
1…34689…64

Comments

  • Options
    #152
    B_Wayne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,039 ✭✭✭B_Wayne


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Kind of proving my point there...the children were buried in a plot beside the septic tank; not quite as sensational as "800 babies dumped in a septic tank" that was peddled and later retracted (i.e. they admitted they lied in printing that part, yet the misinformation still persists).

    I want to form my judgments based on the truth - don't you?

    The commission report said bodies were found in a second structure which was probably used for the containment or treatment of sewage. The bizarre levels of diversion and obfuscation you're engaging is worrying.

    Your focus is the media which is the exact same thing Prone did to divert attention on behalf of the orders. Why are you not outraged by the fact that they wished to cover it up?


  • Options
    #153
    SEPT 23 1989
    Registered Users Posts: 43,028 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Kind of proving my point there...the children were buried in a plot beside the septic tank; not quite as sensational as "800 babies dumped in a septic tank" that was peddled and later retracted (i.e. they admitted they lied in printing that part, yet the misinformation still persists).

    I want to form my judgments based on the truth - don't you?

    Have a ljsten back to today's Liveline listen to one of the callers who fell into one of them while playing as a child

    Listen to her description


  • Options
    #154
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    It is so sad to think about.
    I'm a single mother and I have raised a wonderful child with the help of society. From the teachers in my school when I was a young pregnant teenager, the hospital staff who educated and encouraged me, my parents who albeit not exactly thrilled in the beginning but who stayed loyal and in my corner from day one. The state who offered me my free education to get the job I have today, jobseekers assistance and FIS when I was out of work or unable to find work that paid enough to cover the childcare. Childminders who look after her so I can go to work and provide for her. Her teachers from the school that is, as much as I may resent the fact, a Catholic school. It absolutely takes a village to raise a child, and as a single parent I am so grateful for everybody who helps me in parenting. If it had happened to me in what is really only a few years back, this is what could have happened to my child. Two wasted lives. Society would have done this to us instead. It's absolutely crazy to think about.


  • Options
    #155
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Neyite wrote: »
    Maintenance to the homes was covered by the local authorities, so the nuns didnt have to worry about the costs of upkeep.

    So in addition to being paid the average industrial wage (anyone know by the way how much that was, or how much it may be in todays money?) by the state to look after these mothers and children (which would support a single family with lots and lots of children outside the walls of the home), made money from slave labour, they also got a whopper amount of money for the adoptions.

    And still, the little ones were malnourished?
    I've said it before and I'll say it again: The Church could really use an English teacher to explain to them the actual meaning of 'suffer the little children.


  • Options
    #156
    dav3
    Registered Users Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭dav3


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Kind of proving my point there...the children were buried in a plot beside the septic tank; not quite as sensational as "800 babies dumped in a septic tank" that was peddled and later retracted (i.e. they admitted they lied in printing that part, yet the misinformation still persists).

    I want to form my judgments based on the truth - don't you?

    It doesn't appear that your judgements are based on the truth.

    The type of tank is now irrelevant. Whether it was a septic tank or not, it doesn't make the actions any less horrific.

    The "truth" is below.
    Test trenches were dug revealing two large structures. One structure appears to be a large sewage containment system or septic tank that had been decommissioned and filled with rubble and debris and then covered with top soil.

    The second structure is a long structure which is divided into 20 chambers.

    The Commission has not yet determined what the purpose of this structure was but it appears to be related to the treatment/containment of sewage and/or waste water.

    The Commission has also not yet determined if it was ever used for this purpose.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #157
    KKkitty
    Registered Users Posts: 7,534 ✭✭✭KKkitty


    please helpThank YOU wrote: »
    Sorry for what happened to your mother but.its the state who did this.

    IMO the state is as culpable as the church. They never disputed anything the church did no matter how wrong it was and still is. They can release all the statements they want, have all the tribunals they like but unless names of the culprits are revealed and people are jailed the suffering of the women who were put through this will never be OK. It's not ok anyway but there are many women in this country who are scarred for life by what they went through and still go through.


  • Options
    #158
    Parchment
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,203 ✭✭✭Parchment


    The state allowed it but the church caused it with all their fear mongering and shaming of people.

    I hope all those with their ashes on their foreheads this week can truely believe in such an organization.


  • Options
    #159
    please helpThank YOU
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭please helpThank YOU


    My Grandmother was pregnant with my mother in the 1950s she was unmarried and she had to leave Ireland to have my mother in the UK because Society turned on her and she was told leave Ireland you are not welcome and people would name call her WITH THE LIKES YOU ARE HAVING THE DEVILS CHILD. all of her friends turned there backs on her she was all alone and outcast. my Grandmother was asked to go into one of the homes like in tuam in Galway .my Grandmother all way says holly Ireland and she will never forget what happened to her . and its still the same turn on the radio and there on about unmarried women in 2017 .


  • Options
    #160
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    please helpThank YOU wrote: »
    My Grandmother was pregnant with my mother in the 1950s she was unmarried and she had to leave Ireland to have my mother in the UK because Society turned on her and she was told leave Ireland you are not welcome and people would name call her WITH THE LIKES YOU ARE HAVING THE DEVILS CHILD. all of her friends turned there backs on her she was all alone and outcast. my Grandmother was asked to go into one of the homes like in tuam in Galway .my Grandmother all way says holly Ireland and she will never forget what happened to her . and its still the same turn on the radio and there on about unmarried women in 2017 .

    So sad but I can't agree it is still the same.


  • Options
    #161
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    My aunt had her knuckles broken by a nun in her normal non industrial school. My gran, a tough no nonsense woman confronted the nun, who hid in her office until my granny was gone.

    The same aunt was later "sent down the country" and won't talk about what happened.

    Listen we can blame the church but some people, like my gran stood up to them when she could. Let's be honest, people were brought here by the Garda or there families and ultimately babies were killed. The Garda were also involved and if anyone of them is alive today well the best thing I wish them is a fast death.

    These infants were killed based on how society viewed single mothers and the poorest in society. To this day you'll hear of single mothers and poorer people being singled out as being the cause of societies problems ect but the real Irish heros and those who fought against that stigma and those who died in these hell holes.

    Rest in peace poor unfortunates. You were murdered by degenerates and placed in a septic tank to be forgotten, but you'll be the ones remembered and the Garda, priests and bible thumpers will be forgotten.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #162
    KKkitty
    Registered Users Posts: 7,534 ✭✭✭KKkitty


    Parchment wrote: »
    The state allowed it but the church caused it with all their fear mongering and shaming of people.

    I hope all those with their ashes on their foreheads this week can truely believe in such an organization.

    Whatever about dictating to people that they shouldn't have meat on certain days of the year forcing mothers to give up their own children is heinous. Being made feel like they were horrible women for getting pregnant outside marriage. No one to stick up for you no matter what.


  • Options
    #163
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    KKkitty wrote: »
    IMO the state is as culpable as the church. They never disputed anything the church did no matter how wrong it was and still is. They can release all the statements they want, have all the tribunals they like but unless names of the culprits are revealed and people are jailed the suffering of the women who were put through this will never be OK. It's not ok anyway but there are many women in this country who are scarred for life by what they went through and still go through.

    Yes they are. The garda brought people here.


  • Options
    #164
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    KKkitty wrote: »
    Whatever about dictating to people that they shouldn't have meat on certain days of the year forcing mothers to give up their own children is heinous. Being made feel like they were horrible women for getting pregnant outside marriage. No one to stick up for you no matter what.

    You know what KKKitty? People still judge single mothers. It hasn't gone away yet.


  • Options
    #165
    Snickers Man
    Registered Users Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    dav3 wrote: »
    The more you post, the more the mask slips. You can pontificate in this thread right to the end, but it’s certainly not going to win you many fans. The people have a fair idea at this stage the severity of this issue.

    When you continually ask people to ‘calm down’ are you directing this at people within this thread debating the issues with facts, or the people who are still waiting for justice over half a century later?

    I have no problem with people discussing the facts of the case. I have a problem with people histrionically exaggerating what happened and drawing wild conclusions that are not based on any facts at all.

    Especially those (do I really have to link and quote them all?) who are talking about "genocide" and "murder". I even question (note that word) whether there is any likelihood of a crime, ie an infringement of the law, to be investigated at all. To that end I have asked (note: asked) if anybody knows whether there are laws concerning the disposal of dead bodies because I genuinely don't know the answer and nobody has yet furnished one.

    Do you have any issue with my narrative of how events came to light, other than calling it "irrelevant"? If so, please do suggest corrections.


    dav3 wrote: »
    I will once again quote an email from Terry Prone written on behalf of the Bon Secours who had hired the communications clinic to carry out PR for them in relation to this.

    The facts of the story so far, are that a group of people wanted to prevent this story from getting any more coverage then it already had.

    Had all these deaths and ‘burials’ been legal and above board as you put in your hypothesis, it appears that these people went to extraordinary lengths to cover it up. The question would have to be asked why?

    Terry Prone's letter, from its tone--you didn't leave the date in--seems to refer to a communication AFTER the story had broken. So she's hardly "covering up" something if it has already been made public is she?

    She's a spin doctor. She's hired to give her clients' point of view on things. She is open to challenge and rebuttal. Do you have a problem with this? BTW I don't like the wagon at all and, in hindsight, she has clearly made a false statement when she says "You will find no mass grave". At the time of writing, however, she was strictly correct because CONTRARY TO REPORTS AT THE TIME no mass grave had been found.

    Now it has.

    Your sneering at my "hypothesis" that "all these deaths and burials were legal and above board" implies that you think there must have been something illegal or criminal afoot? What crime or crimes specifically do you think were committed and where is the evidence for them?

    Now let ME repeat what I have said before. By the standards it claims and given the strictures it places on its own flock and their treatment of deceased loved ones the church has behaved hypocritically, callously and arrogantly to these people. But none of that is criminal. Being a bollox is not against the law, (fortunately).

    If people want to "bring perpetrators to justice" they first of all have to identify a crime. And then they have to determine who was responsible.

    Now what crimes are you talking about?


  • Options
    #166
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Snickers Man wrote: »
    I have no problem with people discussing the facts of the case. I have a problem with people histrionically exaggerating what happened and drawing wild conclusions that are not based on any facts at all.

    Especially those (do I really have to link and quote them all?) who are talking about "genocide" and "murder". I even question (note that word) whether there is any likelihood of a crime, ie an infringement of the law, to be investigated at all. To that end I have asked (note: asked) if anybody knows whether there are laws concerning the disposal of dead bodies because I genuinely don't know the answer and nobody has yet furnished one.

    Do you have any issue with my narrative of how events came to light, other than calling it "irrelevant"? If so, please do suggest corrections. Going by what we know of Catholic "care homes" it wasn't likely the babies were looked after.





    Terry Prone's letter, from its tone--you didn't leave the date in--seems to refer to a communication AFTER the story had broken. So she's hardly "covering up" something if it has already been made public is she?

    She's a spin doctor. She's hired to give her clients' point of view on things. She is open to challenge and rebuttal. Do you have a problem with this? BTW I don't like the wagon at all and, in hindsight, she has clearly made a false statement when she says "You will find no mass grave". At the time of writing, however, she was strictly correct because CONTRARY TO REPORTS AT THE TIME no mass grave had been found.

    Now it has.

    Your sneering at my "hypothesis" that "all these deaths and burials were legal and above board" implies that you think there must have been something illegal or criminal afoot? What crime or crimes specifically do you think were committed and where is the evidence for them?

    Now let ME repeat what I have said before. By the standards it claims and given the strictures it places on its own flock and their treatment of deceased loved ones the church has behaved hypocritically, callously and arrogantly to these people. But none of that is criminal. Being a bollox is not against the law, (fortunately).

    If people want to "bring perpetrators to justice" they first of all have to identify a crime. And then they have to determine who was responsible.

    Now what crimes are you talking about?

    Right, you may speculate that the deaths were legal and above board. My view is that whoever buried these kids are low lives of the highest order.


  • Options
    #167
    KKkitty
    Registered Users Posts: 7,534 ✭✭✭KKkitty


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    You know what KKKitty? People still judge single mothers. It hasn't gone away yet.

    I had my first child in 2006. I was a single parent. My parents told me to come back home so I had someone there for me. My dad wasn't happy but he loved his grandson. I was the talk of the town for a while. Who was the father, was he going to be involved? I have to say though many who I thought that would think badly of me didn't. My mother's aunt was very religious but she was happy as long as I was too. To think that my mother was in the same situation but because it was decades previous, that she wasn't allowed to keep her baby and I was shows we've come a long way.


  • Options
    #168
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    Let me tell you, this is no shock to those of us who live in Galway. It was always just about biding time to have it confirmed. My mother went to school with some of these women. They'd be in school one day, then gone and never spoken about for 6-9 months. There's be rumours going about detailing where they were, "Mary is pregnant so she's gone to a home", "I heard she had an baby boy"..
    9 months later Mary would return to school with no baby and no mention of a baby, she'd tell people she "went to help an elderly aunt in England".
    We've known about this for years here, but somehow Ireland was never able to have a conversation about what actually happened until now. It was always hidden under a cloak of secrecy.

    So sad and I'm ashamed to be associated with this disgusting religion who murdererd and abused and covered it up and denied it for years.


  • Options
    #169
    please helpThank YOU
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭please helpThank YOU


    There is one Dublin radio station and radio presenter and the his listeners and he has radio shows all about unmarried women and the mob join in and the hate the say about poor women kids this is in 2017 most people would know who I am on about


  • Options
    #170
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,020 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Shurimgreat wrote: »
    Is there any way to trace who the nuns were in the home? If only to provide witness testimony.
    I can recall being in the CICA offices and discussing this very thing with them.

    The religious orders (and more so with the nuns) had a habit of renaming their staff. At one point a convent could have coincidentally had a few Sr. Assumptas or whatever. Not for malicious reasons but in hindsight proved burdensome as it made tracking them down very difficult by all accounts.


  • Options
    #171
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,020 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    pilly wrote: »
    Why has it taken so long from the initial findings to now?
    If you rush something then you make mistakes!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #172
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,020 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    lawred2 wrote: »
    If they couldn't sell them - they let them die
    Now that's just being daft.
    There's absolutely no evidence that anyone was murdered in Tuam so stop making stuff up!


    Note: as much as I loathe the institution, I'd prefer a mature and honest debate.


  • Options
    #173
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    You know what KKKitty? People still judge single mothers. It hasn't gone away yet.

    People judge but the main judgement I hear is the usual assumption- "single mother claiming benefits and getting a free house" and I'd much prefer that people see the state giving support (even if they are misguided in their opinion that we are given excessive support) than how they treated us in the past.


  • Options
    #174
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,020 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    steddyeddy wrote: »

    Rest in peace poor unfortunates. You were murdered by degenerates and placed in a septic tank to be forgotten, but you'll be the ones remembered and the Garda, priests and bible thumpers will be forgotten.

    As per my previous post, there's no evidence of murder here!


  • Options
    #175
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    please helpThank YOU wrote: »
    There is one Dublin radio station and radio presenter and the his listeners and he has radio shows all about unmarried women and the mob join in and the hate the say about poor women kids this is in 2017 most people would know who I am on about

    Ah I listen to that show, if its who i think you're on about, they also give out about black people, taxi drivers, etc. It's not the best measure of society tbf.


  • Options
    #176
    Colser
    Registered Users Posts: 5,572 ✭✭✭Colser


    kbannon wrote: »
    As per my previous post, there's no evidence of murder here!

    Do you believe that they were cared for in the best possible way that was available to their "carers" at the time?


  • Options
    #177
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,020 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Colser wrote: »
    Do you believe that they were cared for in the best possible way that was available to their "carers" at the time?

    I think they were neglected by so many different people and official bodies but I'm not going to assume murder.
    I'll wait for an official statement of fact before joining a torch wielding mob.


  • Options
    #178
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »
    Have a ljsten back to today's Liveline listen to one of the callers who fell into one of them while playing as a child

    Listen to her description

    Of the three or four who replied to me (and 1 daw who pm'd) you're the one I've no problem with.

    No, I don't need to listen to liveline. I read Corless' thing shortly after it emerged and the two guys testimony and that was enough for me. I haven't read much on it since the Garda investigation was announced (no point really) and I'll wait for their findings....would rather deal with facts than emotion.


  • Options
    #179
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    kbannon wrote: »
    As per my previous post, there's no evidence of murder here!

    A mass grave in a septic tank would give most people cause to think either foul play or child neglect/abuse. Let's hope you don't think burying babies in secret is normal.


  • Options
    #180
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    kbannon wrote: »
    Now that's just being daft.
    There's absolutely no evidence that anyone was murdered in Tuam so stop making stuff up!


    Note: as much as I loathe the institution, I'd prefer a mature and honest debate.

    In AH?...on a bandwagon thread?! you must be out of your mind!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #181
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,020 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    A mass grave in a septic tank would give most people cause to think either foul play or child neglect/abuse. Let's hope you don't think burying babies in secret is normal.
    I'm well able to phrase things without requiring you to clarify. I never said it was normal and I did state that it was neglectful.
    I'm just not going to adopt a Facebook set of emotions without any actual facts.
    What I said was that there was no evidence of murder. I didn't say murder didn't happen but we currently have no knowledge of any nor is there, AFAIK, any allegations of murder apart from a few on here.


Advertisement