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"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    RobertKK wrote: »
    I would guess most, if not all of the people responsible are now dead since this particular mother and baby home ran from 1925 to 1961.
    1961 is 56 years ago.

    Plenty of 80 and 90 year old nuns alive believe me, they didn't die young in the most part. Because they looked after themselves very well and still do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    Is there any way to trace who the nuns were in the home? If only to provide witness testimony.

    The law around neglect in those days might have been a grey area. It seems like a lot of these babies were starved to death, possibly even deliberately.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Is there any way to trace who the nuns were in the home? If only to provide witness testimony.

    The law around neglect in those days might have been a grey area. It seems like a lot of these babies were starved to death, possibly even deliberately.

    I don't know, the letter from Terry Prone seems to state that none of the Bon Secours sisters worked there but I find that hard to believe. Some of them have to be still alive.

    Doesn't really matter what the law was. Human decency doesn't need a law to be carried out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,739 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    pilly wrote: »
    Plenty of 80 and 90 year old nuns alive believe me, they didn't die young in the most part. Because they looked after themselves very well and still do.

    I don't think a 24 year old nun would be the most responsible for this given that would be her age when it closed if she is now 80 years old, a 34 year old a much stronger case but there is a but, but the mother superior who held the power is probably dead, and she would have been the person most responsible, and she was probably much older than 34 in 1961.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,133 ✭✭✭Shurimgreat


    There seems to be a pattern with religious institutions taking in people, promising the government they would look after them in exchange for cash, and then failing to fulfil this promise.

    I hope there is a criminal investigation into this. I know the main perpetrators are probably dead, but some sort of criminal investigation would be worthwhile.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,300 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Is anyone actually surprised?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Why has it taken so long from the initial findings to now?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,593 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    valoren wrote: »
    Statement

    The Bon Secours sisters are fully committed to the work of the Commission regarding the mother and baby home in Tuam. On the closing of the Home in 1961 all the records for the Home were returned to Galway County Council who are the owners and occupiers of the lands of the Home. We can therefore make no comment on today’s announcement, other than to confirm our continued cooperation with and support for the work of the Commission in seeking the truth about the home.

    Very cold and matter of fact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,211 ✭✭✭marklazarcovic


    in my opinion, any persons involved in the cover up of this,be it back then ,or now,who had information this went on and instead of offering the information up hid it,or refused comment, be they lawmen,clergy,civilian, should have their assets taken from them and sold,with all funds given to the families of those affected ,if they wish,or to fund current young childrens homes.

    the only thing that scares people is loosing money or assets, they aint doing jail, id love if the church had all its assets taken from them and used for good,and the same to those who facilitated their abuse of power.

    scumbags.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭please helpThank YOU


    this was a money making industry in Tuam in Galway like the lunatic asylums in Ireland also money making industry in 1800s. society in Ireland we have the Grace case in Waterford this year also a money making industry. and the list go on and on but the rich people this dos not happened to them its all the poor and its all about money the root of all evil the people who do this are still here but just under new names so called government agencies charities its still here in Ireland


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,462 ✭✭✭valoren


    There seems to be a pattern with religious institutions like these taking in people, promising the government they would look after them in exchange for cash, and then failing to fulfil this promise.

    I hope there is a criminal investigation into this. I know the main perpetrators are probably dead, but some sort of criminal investigation would be worthwhile.

    Agreed.

    I've always believed that reputation is everything. It means more than power, of controlling people. More than money, by accruing vast sums after vows of poverty, using children and babies as commodities for adoptions.

    Seeing that the Bons Secours Sisters are very adept at employing sociopathic PR representation to weasel out of responsibility and accountability indicates that they are fully aware of the dangers of having their reputation damaged. It is the very reason PR itself exists.

    While those individuals who are ultimately responsible may be dead, the orders they represented, who operated under a framework of neglect and abuse, can still be held accountable and have their reputations irretrievably damaged in our society.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Graces7 wrote: »
    This is not coming from the press. Read the article ?

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/latest-other-mother-and-baby-homes-must-also-be-investigated-779840.html

    Many of us have known much of this for years as truth and fact. Involved with survivors.

    The day we stop being upset at atrocities?

    Two years ago RC forums tried to dismiss the Tuam discoveries as a hoax .

    There are no exaggerations here; clear scientific fact. No hoax.
    No-one has said it was a hoax but I am saying that certain media outlets, printed false information and called it the truth. Not about the just under 800 minors who died and were buried but about the distortion that 800 children/babies died (or were killed?) and then were dumped in a disused septic tank. The part about being dumped in a septic tank is what the Irish Media outlets were forced to print a retraction to...and yet if you read the post below, the misinformation is still accepted as fact. I've no issue with people being angry but at least be angry over what did happen and not what didn't. We'll never get to the truth if there are lies being peddled.
    juno10353 wrote: »
    There are approx 800 death certificates for the babies who died in this mother and baby home, the burial site had never been found. The babies were not interred in local cemeteries. This has lead to this site being excavated. It would appear that the bodies of these babies were just disposed of in the sewage pit and not given a proper or christian burial. It remains to be seen how many poor children were abandoned at this site and are there more sites. Approx 800 certified deaths unaccounted for.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    Yet we still leave our children in the care of the religious faiths, via the primary school patronage system

    completely bonkers


  • Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I know this will come across as defending the church but a mortality rate of 2/3 times the national average while indicating poor provision of care and neglect doesn't necessarily equal a deliberate policy does it?
    My bad, I did mean to say, "perhaps even deliberate". I didn't mean to suggest that it must have been deliberate, just that I believe the difference is stark enough to be worth investigating if there was a policy of deliberate mistreatment.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    No-one has said it was a hoax but I am saying that certain media outlets, printed false information and called it the truth. Not about the just under 800 minors who died and were buried but about the distortion that 800 children/babies died (or were killed?) and then were dumped in a disused septic tank. The part about being dumped in a septic tank is what the Irish Media outlets were forced to print a retraction to...and yet if you read the post below, the misinformation is still accepted as fact. I've no issue with people being angry but at least be angry over what did happen and not what didn't. We'll never get to the truth if there are lies being peddled.

    And what difference is there between a septic tank and disused septic tank in your opinion? The babies were disposed of in the most disgusting way whatever way you look at it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,534 ✭✭✭KKkitty


    My mother went to her grave without being reunited with her son but how many mothers are alive today that hoped to meet their children again. This is a worrying time for those mothers. I really feel for all of them. Just looking at films or documentaries about what they faced just because they had babies outside marriage is harrowing. It was because of god fearing Catholic relations of my mother's that she was sent away. Being made to think that having a baby without a husband was a sin. The priests, nuns and anyone else who was responsible for this should be named and shamed. The state needs to form a backbone and stand up for all the women who were downtrodden for so long.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭dav3


    Calm down. Please.

    The more you post, the more the mask slips. You can pontificate in this thread right to the end, but it’s certainly not going to win you many fans. The people have a fair idea at this stage the severity of this issue.

    When you continually ask people to ‘calm down’ are you directing this at people within this thread debating the issues with facts, or the people who are still waiting for justice over half a century later?

    The majority of your post is irrelevant. However there are a couple of lines that I will quote.
    This is not a cover up. This is (I'm guessing)…

    …The facts of the story so far are that several hundred deaths occurred at a Mother and Baby Home during its years of operation. That the minimum (so far as I know and nobody has ventured other information) legal requirements concerning notification of authorities were met and that the bodies were disposed of without ceremony or acknowledgement in the most convenient place. Which seems to have been a long disused (I've seen this written about elsewhere but can't recall) compartmentalised structure which had been a waste-water or cess pit many years before the site became a home. It was NOT a working septic tank. 

    I will once again quote an email from Terry Prone written on behalf of the Bon Secours who had hired the communications clinic to carry out PR for them in relation to this.

    The facts of the story so far, are that a group of people wanted to prevent this story from getting any more coverage then it already had.

    Had all these deaths and ‘burials’ been legal and above board as you put in your hypothesis, it appears that these people went to extraordinary lengths to cover it up. The question would have to be asked why?
    Your letter was sent on to me by the Provincial of the Irish Bon Secours congregation with instructions that I should help you.

    I’m not sure how I can.

    Let me explain. When the “O My God – mass grave in West of Ireland” broke in an English-owned paper (the Mail) it surprised the hell out of everybody, not least the Sisters of Bon Secours in Ireland, none of whom had ever worked in Tuam and most of whom had never heard of it.

    If you come here, you’ll find no mass grave, no evidence that children were ever so buried, and a local police force casting their eyes to heaven and saying “Yeah, a few bones were found – but this was an area where Famine victims were buried. So?”

    Several international TV stations have aborted their plans to make documentaries, because essentially all that can be said is “Ireland in the first half of the twentieth century was a moralistic, inward-looking, anti-feminist country of exagerrated religiousity.” Which most of us knew already.

    The overwhelming majority of the surviving Sisters of Bon Secours in Ireland are over eighty. The handful (literally) still in active ministry are in their seventies. None of them is an historian or sociologist or theologian and so wouldn’t have the competence to be good on your programme. If you’d like me to point you at a few reputable historians who might be good, I’ll certainly do that.

    Terry Prone (Ms)
    Chairman
    The Communications Clinic


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭please helpThank YOU


    KKkitty wrote: »
    My mother went to her grave without being reunited with her son but how many mothers are alive today that hoped to meet their children again. This is a worrying time for those mothers. I really feel for all of them. Just looking at films or documentaries about what they faced just because they had babies outside marriage is harrowing. It was because of god fearing Catholic relations of my mother's that she was sent away. Being made to think that having a baby without a husband was a sin. The priests, nuns and anyone else who was responsible for this should be named and shamed. The state needs to form a backbone and stand up for all the women who were downtrodden for so long.
    Sorry for what happened to your mother but.its the state who did this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,023 ✭✭✭Donal55


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    Yet we still leave our children in the care of the religious faiths, via the primary school patronage system

    completely bonkers

    And all overseen by the Govt authorities. Don't let anyone think this was only a religious problem.

    I heard Ms. Corless being interviewed earlier. 800 death certs were issued. No burial records. Was no garda, doctor, nurse, tradesman etc ever suspicious?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭please helpThank YOU


    Donal55 wrote: »
    And all overseen by the Govt authorities. Don't let anyone think this was only a religious problem.

    I heard Ms. Corless being interviewed earlier. 800 death certs were issued. No burial records. Was no garda, doctor, nurse, tradesman etc ever suspicious?
    very well said


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  • Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    I posted this on the A&A thread a couple of years ago and it's worth posting again.
    Neyite wrote: »
    I started to read a book - banished babies - last night about the whole area of children being adopted from these homes to Americans.

    Did you know that the going rate for a child was between £2000 and £3000 per child. Or, if since charging for babies was illegal, it was a suggested donation to the Order.

    In todays money that has been equated to €70,000 - €82,000. Per child.
    Plus if if the mother didnt have the £100 to pay the nuns after your baby was born, you could not leave. So you stayed for 3 years to work and pay off your debt to them, despite having worked solid 12hr days in laundries or tarring roads for approx 6 months beforehand for them unpaid.

    And there were no doctors fees, doctors never attended the births, no medications such as antibiotics, or pain relief were used. They didnt even spend the money on needles and thread to stitch women up if they tore during labour. (because they deserved to suffer as a penance for their sins)

    Maintenance to the homes was covered by the local authorities, so the nuns didnt have to worry about the costs of upkeep.

    So in addition to being paid the average industrial wage (anyone know by the way how much that was, or how much it may be in todays money?) by the state to look after these mothers and children (which would support a single family with lots and lots of children outside the walls of the home), made money from slave labour, they also got a whopper amount of money for the adoptions.

    And still, the little ones were malnourished?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,300 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    If they couldn't sell them - they let them die


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    I am adopted.

    In the year I was born, unmarried mothers in Ireland were still generally sent to 'mother and child homes' to give birth where they were subject to the most appalling cruelty and neglect and in which the death rate for infants was significantly higher than that for infants born to married mothers.

    In most cases, the children of unmarried mothers were adopted or otherwise taken from them without their informed consent, or with 'consent' given under pressure.

    After their children had been taken away from them, many of these girls and women were effectively imprisoned and forced to work for little or nothing while incarcerated as a punishment for their supposed sins.

    Some of the men and women responsible for this, mostly self-proclaimed Christians, are still alive.

    The most appropriate course of action to deal with these people would be to initiate Garda investigations into their alleged crimes, bringing them to trial and sentencing those who are guilty to lengthy prison sentences.

    I have little or no hope that this will happen.

    I have little or no hope that children who were born at around the same time as I was, and who died of wilful neglect, will ever receive justice.

    I have little or no hope that the mothers of these children, and all the mothers who were illegally harmed and coerced, will ever receive justice.

    I once worked at the now-closed Cork Heritage Park, based in the grounds of the infamous Bessborough complex, part of Ireland's gulag archipelago for unmarried mothers and their children.

    Some of the comments I heard about unmarried mothers and children from nuns who worked there in the mid-1990s were heartlessly cruel, the opposite of Christianity.

    Some information about Bessborough and the damage and cruelty it inflicted on mothers and children:
    In August of last year, this newspaper uncovered material in the Cork City and County archives which shows an official investigation into deaths in Bessborough carried out by the Cork County medical officer in 1943 confirmed an infant mortality rate of 68%.

    The HSE report states that, in addition to revealing the number of babies that died between 1934 to 1953, the death record at Bessborough lists each child’s date of death, address, name, gender, age at last birthday, profession (marked as son or daughter), cause of death, and, in some cases, the duration of illness and the date when the death was registered.

    The recorded causes of death in the entries include: Marasmus, gastro enteritis, congenital debility, spina bifida, congenital syphilis, pneumonia, bronchitis, congenital heart, tubercular peritiorities, cardiac shock, heat stroke, tonsillitis, and prematurity.

    Inexplicably one entry which records a child dying of prematurity states that the child had turned three years of age at her last birthday.

    Disturbing as these revelations are, perhaps the most shocking claim made in the HSE study is that death records may have been falsified for children so that they could be “brokered” for adoption, perhaps both at home and abroad.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/special-investigation-bessborough-mother-and-baby-home-its-time-these-womens-voices-are-finally-heard-334069.html

    A 68% infant mortality rate. Think about that. over two-thirds of the babies born there died within months of birth, something which usually only happens in war zones and in times of famine.

    The treatment given to these women and their children isn't ancient history, not by any means.

    This is an account from a women who was sent to Bessboro as a student in late 1984:
    IT WAS THE summer of 1984 and I was due to start my second year of college in UCG. I had had a brief summer romance with an Irish guy I met while working over the summer in London, he was a few years older than me and when we parted at the end of the summer we promised each other we’d stay in touch. I came home to my parents’ house all ready to start second year in college. I wasn’t feeling great and realised shortly afterwards that I was pregnant.

    My parent’s initial reaction was one of complete disbelief and silence. Their silence was deafening, I knew they disapproved so much of my pregnancy that I had no choice but to go away. I was constantly reminded that I had younger siblings, I was the eldest of five children. This was not a situation that they would entertain, me being at home pregnant and my youngest sister was only eight years of age. I knew pretty much what I had to do, they arranged with the college that I could postpone my second year and re-join the following year and they set up a meeting with Cura who would “look after me”; this essentially meant me being sent away to a mother-and-baby home for my confinement.

    Sent where nobody would know me
    I was sent to the furthest point away from them, where no one would know me, and I was sent to Bessborough. They drove me down in October of 1984 to Bessborough mother-and-baby home which is located in Mahon, Cork. We went to the front of the house, my parents and I were brought into the parlour of the main house (the one and only time I was ever in this room) and the nuns told us all that I would be well looked after.

    My parents said goodbye and left for home. I was being shown around the facilities, which were grim, it was like a mix of a school and a jail on the inside of the building, there was a courtyard in the centre which to me resembles a jail, all windows and outside stairwells, from a scene in Colditz the movie.

    I was shown the laundrette where I could hand wash my clothes, and the nun who was showing me around asked me about the father of the child, I told her his religion was Protestant and that he was Irish; I had to get on my knees and say a decade of the rosary for “forgiveness”. This particular nun was very keen on changing your name when you came into the home, as an act of defiance I kept my name Sally for the whole time I was there. This set the tone of my six months in Bessborough. I shared a room with two other girls, and some nights all you could hear was sobbing coming from the corner of the room. Our sadness and grief were solely our own, it was like an inevitable doom looming and those nights were so long.

    We tried to soothe each other
    There were approximately 35 girls in the home when I was there, we were all in the same situation, all from different parts of the country, no one wanted us at home, and our pregnancies had to be hidden. The time was put in with reading books, typing lessons, making flower arrangements and pottery clocks. I later found out that all the goods we made – clocks and flower arrangements – were sold in Roches Stores in Patrick St in Cork, it was like we had to earn our keep. The nuns did make us do typing lessons, this was a skill we would have once we left the home. To this day I have 60 words a minute, the only one positive thing to come out of my time at Bessborough.

    We spent most of our time keeping ourselves going, someone was having a bad day, we would gather and try to help and soothe each other as best we could. If someone had a visitor it kept us going for ages, they were so lucky… My parents’ lack of contact during this time, reemphasised what they wanted me to do, which was give my baby up for adoption.

    The loneliness for my family was incredible. I had been the centre of attention in my own family at home, the eldest, full of life. When I got pregnant and it was like they didn’t want to know me or what I was going through. This situation had to go away, I had to go away, and my baby had to be given away. It all had to appear normal, no one could ever know.

    I was terrified
    Towards the end of December I started to brainwash myself about giving up the baby, I was training myself to detach, I was watching women leaving their babies every week, broken-hearted, they were utterly devastated. I had to get tough if I was going to leave my child. The nuns would regularly have the priest talk to us, about our faith and making the right decision for our children and our families, no one said you had to give up your baby, but it was totally inferred that what’s they wanted us to do.

    The delivery room was on the same corridor as where the girls watched television, everyone knew when someone went into labour, you could hear the screams and we would all be terrified for ourselves and the girl who was in labour. In late March 1985, I went into labour, I was given pethidine as pain relief. I was terrified, so scared, I had never experienced pain like it. One of the nuns was a midwife and she delivered my son. He was taken from me immediately and sent to the nursery. I have never felt so vulnerable, like I was mute, my child was just taken away to another room, I was told he was perfect, when I did see him later on the next day, he was perfect.

    I have never experienced such grief and despair

    He was put in a nursery with all the other new babies, this was run by a deeply unpleasant nurse who would torment us new mothers, saying things like “your mother doesn’t want to feed you”, while she was feeding our babies. The nuns had encouraged us not to feed our children as this would encourage bonding and make things more difficult for us when it came the time for us to leave.

    I left the home three days after he was born, I thought my heart would break, to this day I have never experienced the grief and despair I felt leaving him, I thought I would physically break in half. I know I cried for three months solid, every night I would cry myself to sleep. I think the fact I could cry saved me at the time, I could release my grief through tears.

    I signed his final papers when he was six months old, I had convinced myself that it was the right decision for him.

    To those who will, or have already, come to this thread in an attempt to minimise or dispute the barbarism of these institutions I simply say: fúck you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    pilly wrote: »
    And what difference is there between a septic tank and disused septic tank in your opinion? The babies were disposed of in the most disgusting way whatever way you look at it.

    Kind of proving my point there...the children were buried in a plot beside the septic tank; not quite as sensational as "800 babies dumped in a septic tank" that was peddled and later retracted (i.e. they admitted they lied in printing that part, yet the misinformation still persists).

    I want to form my judgments based on the truth - don't you?


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,403 ✭✭✭✭vicwatson


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    Yet we still leave our children in the care of the religious faiths, via the primary school patronage system

    completely bonkers

    So many people in Ireland part of the problem and not part of the solution


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭sondagefaux


    Kind of proving my point there...the children were buried in a plot beside the septic tank; not quite as sensational as "800 babies dumped in a septic tank" that was peddled and later retracted (i.e. they admitted they lied in printing that part, yet the misinformation still persists).

    I want to form my judgments based on the truth - don't you?

    You're not interested in the truth. You're interested in distorting and minimising.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,403 ✭✭✭✭vicwatson


    Donal55 wrote: »
    And all overseen by the Govt authorities. Don't let anyone think this was only a religious problem.

    I heard Ms. Corless being interviewed earlier. 800 death certs were issued. No burial records. Was no garda, doctor, nurse, tradesman etc ever suspicious?

    Fact. Gardai and Galway County Council knew about this mass grave in the 70's and did NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭please helpThank YOU


    Neyite wrote: »
    I posted this on the A&A thread a couple of years ago and it's worth posting again.
    its all about Money Money Money and has Ireland changed ?:mad: no way will it I am Sorry to say there to much money to be made in the likes of tuam Galway we are being hoodwinked by the state its not what there telling us the state its what there not telling us.:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭R P McMurphy


    Donal55 wrote: »
    And all overseen by the Govt authorities. Don't let anyone think this was only a religious problem.

    I heard Ms. Corless being interviewed earlier. 800 death certs were issued. No burial records. Was no garda, doctor, nurse, tradesman etc ever suspicious?

    Surely the gardai have a case to answer here as well. If toddlers were being disposed of in this manner up until the 1960s and the gardai were oblivious or turning a blind eye then it doesn't say much for the organisation.


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