"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

smurgen

Unknown Soldier wrote: »

We all need to move on tbh.

No we don't.would you say the same to holocaust survivors? In my mind this was a social holocaust.the church treated the poor and defenceless with contempt.anyone who had any hand in covering up neglect or mistreatment needs to be named.the was all recent history too.lots of those involved are still alive.

dav3

Snickers Man wrote: »

My only point was that the nugget which created the worldwide media frenzy was the "Bodies in a septic tank" hysteria. Which has now been disproved.

Whatever about the rest of your asinine post. The above quote is very telling.

What's going on here lads? This line is getting trotted out all over the internet today from people desperately attempting to deflect from the report today.

What exactly are you hoping to achieve?

People keep telling you the facts, a report issued today finally connects the bones discovered at the site with the home run by the church.

please helpThank YOU

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I have no words left for this abomination WRT to little children in the care of those who professed to be of the Catholic Church.

But is was not only in Tuam. Believe me. Many so called Magdalens (WOMEN) were buried in the Convent grounds also. In unmarked graves.

Highly likely that many of their babies suffered the same undignified burial in a sewer too.

Jesus this country was/is totally fecked.

But it was impossible to talk about it until relatively recently. To be fair.

Such command and control by the CC, the nuns, the convents, the Magdalens, the mother and baby homes, and all the rest of it.

FFS.

I really hope we have moved on.

But then there is Grace, god love her and her peers.

just one word Grace we have not moved on from Tuam Galway the same people who would have been Nuns are now working in Government Agencies the Government took over from the Nuns with the same mind set

please helpThank YOU

Neyite wrote: »

You are absolutely right - I forgot that one, The chances of actually proving that after all this time are nigh on impossible though aren't they? There are feck all witnesses. The order have circled their wagons, as has the diocese. Witnesses are few and far between and probably wouldn't even know the full names of any of the children they witnessed being mistreated.

The state and society are culpable here too as well as the priests, doctors, nurses who had any hand in the care and rearing of these children.

very well said

lazybones32

Neyite wrote: »

You are absolutely right - I forgot that one, The chances of actually proving that after all this time are nigh on impossible though aren't they? There are feck all witnesses. The order have circled their wagons, as has the diocese. Witnesses are few and far between and probably wouldn't even know the full names of any of the children they witnessed being mistreated.

The state and society are culpable here too as well as the priests, doctors, nurses who had any hand in the care and rearing of these children.

I know a woman (82) who went to school in Laois. She said all the kids avoided the children who came from the homes - wouldn't play with them or befriend them. She said you could tell them apart straight away because they all looked sick and the crappy clothing they wore.

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

The woman on the radio said today that she saw piles of two litre bottle size bundles wrapped in cloth stacked up against the walls

That's sad. It kind of goes against what the two young lads recalled seeing; a pit that was full to the brim with bones...implying they were dumped like rubbish. Was she speaking of Tuam or a different home?

smurgen wrote: »

You have an angle.you are downplaying.as it stands the comission is assigning government departments to take over the investigations and a coroner has been appointed to investigate the bodies.the structure is a decomissioned septic tank.my gut instinct is that the church neglected children in their care to the point of death and disposed of their bodies in the way they regarded the children,like unwanted rubbish.alot of evidence is pointing towards this conclusion which is why it is now being treated so seriously.

You are entitled to your gut instinct but I'll wait until there is something more reliable. I don't know why it is so offensive to you, that I'll reserve judgment until the Garda investigation is completed. There is no point vilifying people until as many facts as possible are known.

dav3 wrote: »

If you're incapable of understanding the report I'm not sure i can help you.

http://www.mbhcoi.ie/MBH.nsf/page/Latest%20News-en

Oh, I can read and comprehend, thank you. I asked you to give your reason for being horrified. I'll ask again: what was it that you found horrifying?

Rubberchikken

How can people get on their high horseses and go on about cover us in those days as though time has changed and improved.
Those children are dead. The adults in charge at the time are probably dead.
Yet we still have cover ups. The childrens agency/govt/gardai lying about innocent gardai etc. nothing will ever change.
And these things dont just happen in ireland.

smurgen

Rubberchikken wrote: »

How can people get on their high horseses and go on about cover us in those days as though time has changed and improved.
Those children are dead. The adults in charge at the time are probably dead.
Yet we still have cover ups. The childrens agency/govt/gardai lying about innocent gardai etc. nothing will ever change.
And these things dont just happen in ireland.

Nothing will change because we follow attitudes like yours.

JupiterKid

Disgusting and despicable. But hardly surprising given that it had been indicated for a number of years that there was a mass grave in Tuam. What I want to know is why these remains weren't exhumed until now? Wasn't it known that the remains of hundreds of babies were located in a septic tank at a former religious institution in Tuam?

Sadly I don't see anyone held accountable or culpable for this. I really don't.:mad: And there are probably thousands of other remains interred in mass graves around the country. Tuam is just the tip of the iceberg.

The sins and crimes carried out by the Catholic Church against Irish society is both monstrous and heinous.

please helpThank YOU

Rubberchikken wrote: »

How can people get on their high horseses and go on about cover us in those days as though time has changed and improved.
Those children are dead. The adults in charge at the time are probably dead.
Yet we still have cover ups. The childrens agency/govt/gardai lying about innocent gardai etc. nothing will ever change.
And these things dont just happen in ireland.

Very Well Said and what you just said is all True . Great Post

wdmfapq4zs83hv

I cant tell you how incredibly upset I have been today after reading this this morning. And furious beyond absolutely furious. Those evil evil bastards. To throw a little babys body in a septic tank full of ****. Someones baby. A perfect tiny baby. Or a toddler. Or any child. And for those poor mothers still out there hearing this. My heart is broken for them. The Catholic Church need disbanding. I sincerely hope someone is held accountable but I dont see that happening. And people will still trot off to mass on Sunday & put money in their basket. What will it take to rid us of this evil organisation?

wdmfapq4zs83hv

Unknown Soldier wrote: »

We all need to move on tbh.

Move on? Are you serious? Those are someones babies in a **** tank! Would you move on?

eviltwin

To treat any body in that way is disgusting but exceptionally so to treat the body of a dead child like that. They were discarded like rubbish simply for the circumstances of their conceptions. Their mother's were not treated much better. Our treatment of single mothers and children born outside wedlock is our national scandal but most of those responsible and those affected are dead themselves. I think the best legacy for these women and children would be to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again. Social services here are dire, children alive today are suffering because of lack of resources, their needs aren't being met, their issues aren't being addressed. We say we are a country that cherishes children. Now is the time to prove it.

please helpThank YOU

The Nuns of Tuam Galway and there likes have Evolved into Government woman minsters I can see the mindset of the Nuns in some of them.

Wheeliebin30

Why were the Catholic Church given responsibilty of these babies?

Why couldn't the parents look after them?

Why didn't the state look after them?

Sorry I know nothing of this stuff just few things that crossed my mind.

Why were the church expected to look after these babies?

SEPT 23 1989

eviltwin wrote: »

To treat any body in that way is disgusting but exceptionally so to treat the body of a dead child like that. They were discarded like rubbish simply for the circumstances of their conceptions. Their mother's were not treated much better. Our treatment of single mothers and children born outside wedlock is our national scandal but most of those responsible and those affected are dead themselves. I think the best legacy for these women and children would be to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again. Social services here are dire, children alive today are suffering because of lack of resources, their needs aren't being met, their issues aren't being addressed. We say we are a country that cherishes children. Now is the time to prove it.

I know exactly what you are talking about

You have to fight this state to get help to make your kids future better

Imagine that fighting for fcuking help

Its a step up from throwing them into pits

kylith

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Why were the Catholic Church given responsibilty of these babies?

Why couldn't the parents look after them?

Why didn't the state look after them?

Sorry I know nothing of this stuff just few things that crossed my mind.

Why were the church expected to look after these babies?

It was a Magdalen laundry. Pregnant unmarried women were forced to go there. Once born the children were removed from their mothers (who often did not want to give them up) and either sold abroad or raised in workhouse conditions.

Some of the children would also have been orphans or given up by parents who could not look after them for various reasons (poverty, death of the other parent).

This was done for reasons on 'religion' and 'morality'.

Wheeliebin30

kylith wrote: »

It was a Magdalen laundry. Pregnant unmarried women were forced to go there. Once born the children were removed from their mothers (who often did not want to give them up) and either sold abroad or raised in workhouse conditions.

Some of the children would also have been orphans or given up by parents who could not look after them for various reasons (poverty, death of the other parent).

This was done for reasons on 'religion' and 'morality'.

So the parents couldn't look after them? Do they not share some of the blame for having the kids been left in dire circumstances?

If kids were removed from their parents forcefully that's unbelievable.

Neyite

lazybones32 wrote: »

I know a woman (82) who went to school in Laois. She said all the kids avoided the children who came from the homes - wouldn't play with them or befriend them. She said you could tell them apart straight away because they all looked sick and the crappy clothing they wore.

The same happened with the Tuam home children. Local kids were not allowed to talk to them.

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Why were the Catholic Church given responsibilty of these babies?

Why couldn't the parents look after them?

Why didn't the state look after them?

Sorry I know nothing of this stuff just few things that crossed my mind.

Why were the church expected to look after these babies?

I highly recommend the book Banished Babies to give you an insight into the whole setup of these homes. It's a really interesting book and a right eye-opener.

The state in 1922 would have been in it's infancy after winning independence so letting the religious orders take over in social care was the obvious thing to do. They had the infrastructure and the properties and the teachers/nurses etc already there. It made sense for the state to go into a partnership of sorts with them.

The state did look after them - kinda. They paid the nuns the equivalent of the average industrial wage men earned to look after these mothers and babies.

KKkitty

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So the parents couldn't look after them? Do they not share some of the blame for having the kids been left in dire circumstances?

What if it wasn't their fault? A husband dies leaving a woman with multiple children to look after and because of money and other things she finds it hard to cope. The church step in and say they'll "help" out. They make out that her kids will be ok and she believes it. They end up in a home and are treated badly and made do manual labour.

SEPT 23 1989

Who made the money from the laundries on the backs of slave labour?

KKkitty

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Who made the money from the laundries on the backs of slave labour?

The church I presume.

Seth Brundle

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So the parents couldn't look after them? Do they not share some of the blame for having the kids been left in dire circumstances?

If kids were removed from their parents forcefully that's unbelievable.

The state was a basket case until relatively recently. It happily paid through churches to look after kids and to a certain extent stopped caring then. The vast majority of people didn't care about them. That was the society then.

Also watch the movie Evelyn. Drama but based on a true story.

lazybones32

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Its a step up from throwing them into pits

A few pages ago you posted

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

The woman on the radio said today that she saw piles of two litre bottle size bundles wrapped in cloth stacked up against the walls

If the babies were wrapped in cloth and stacked they were hardly thrown into a pit like refuse...it sounds like someone wrapped them, descended into the chamber and placed them. I doubt it was a game for the nuns, like people in an office do with a piece of paper and the wastebin...but sorry for trying to get to what actually happened.

kylith

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So the parents couldn't look after them? Do they not share some of the blame for having the kids been left in dire circumstances?

If kids were removed from their parents forcefully that's unbelievable.

The reasons the parents couldn't look after them would have been, as I said, due to poverty or, in one case I heard, the mother died and the father could not look after their 5 children as he had to work and childcare wasn't as easy to access those days. If you were suddenly a lone parent faced with the issue of caring for a half dozen small children with little knowledge of how to do so and had no childcare option but to leave them unattended all day I'm sure that turning them over to the Church would seem like the best thing to do for them.

People did not know what was going on inside the homes. They believed that giving their children into the care of the RCC was the best thing to do; that they would be fed, clothed, and educated. They would never have believed that beatings, forced labour, and starvation would be issues in a home run by nuns.

And it's unfortunately not unbelievable: there are people on this very forum who have been through it from both sides.

captbarnacles

The suffocating power the Church had must have been terrifying.

Neyite

captbarnacles wrote: »

The suffocating power the Church had must have been terrifying.

It was. It's never been about faith. It's been about power and domination and wealth.

kylith

lazybones32 wrote: »

A few pages ago you posted

If the babies were wrapped in cloth and stacked they were hardly thrown into a pit like refuse...it sounds like someone wrapped them, descended into the chamber and placed them. I doubt it was a game for the nuns, like people in an office do with a piece of paper and the wastebin...but sorry for trying to get to what actually happened.

Or they wrapped the body and just open the lid of the pit and dropped them in.

My reading of it that the bodies had been wrapped on removal as if they were wrapped when they went in there then, for older toddlers, they would have been larger than a 2 litre bottle and besides that decomposition would mean that the shroud would have been falling off, if it even survived 80 years underground without rotting.

SEPT 23 1989

lazybones32 wrote: »

A few pages ago you posted

If the babies were wrapped in cloth and stacked they were hardly thrown into a pit like refuse...it sounds like someone wrapped them, descended into the chamber and placed them. I doubt it was a game for the nuns, like people in an office do with a piece of paper and the wastebin...but sorry for trying to get to what actually happened.

Why are you trying to defend these people?

No person with a soul could treat young girls and innocent babies like that

Seth Brundle

captbarnacles wrote: »

The suffocating power the Church had must have been terrifying.

I think it was as much that people were much more faithful and unquestioning towards the church, partly because everyone else was and you would be frowned upon by your peers.
That and the fact that in general, people weren't educated to any great level and as priests went off and studied they were put up on a pedestal.
Some priests made full use of this with their fire and brimstone nonsense also.
However, the main point was that the people willingly gave them the power.

please helpThank YOU

I know A Women was in the good shepherd convent in Limerick for more than 10 Years as a Child SLAVE and what she told me shocked me than she had WASH AND IRON 100S OF NAVY TROUSERS AND NAVY JACKETS AND BLUE SHIRTS SHE MADE OUT TO ME THE LOOK LIKE GARDA UNIFORMS