UFC 209: Woodley vs Thompson 2 Sat Mar 4th

dashoonage

wonderfullife wrote: »

Blind hate?

He may very well end up one of the best fighters of all time.

I'm very willing to say he warrants the praise and hype if/when he deserves it.

Beating "pre-suspicious-career-rejuvenation" RDA and 17-11 Michael Johnson added to 17 tomato cans in Russia, does not warrant the existing hype.

His striking is extremely limited and he clearly lost the one fight he was unable to get his opponent to the mat (Tibau). Listen to the commentary on that fight, Rogan and Goldie were pure shocked. They called the fight as a wash-out 30-27 for Tibau.

He has 2 submission wins in the UFC.

One was Johnson - and of Johnson's 11 career losses, 7 have been by submission. He's been vulnerable his entire career on the mat.

Other was Kamal Shalrous, who incidentally is now a pro-wrestler doing WWE-style moves from the top rope.

When he encounters high-level grapplers and BJJ black-belts what has he actually done on the mat?

RDA hit the deck 5 times in that bout. Twice because he chose to attempt a guillotine and jumping guillotine. He didn't get Gleison Tibau down once. He got Pat Healy (purple belt) down once in the first 7 minutes and didn't hold him there.

People are going on about him like he's going around absolutely WRECKING elite grapplers, elite BJJ guys.

He's not. Demian Maia, on the other hand, is literally wrecking the elite of the elite. Gunni did amazingly well to go the distance but it was pure domination.

If he ragdolls Ferguson for 5 rounds and destroys him on the ground, I'll be the first on here to eat humble pie.

Funnily enough, I don't think you'll be so quick to say Khabib was over-rated if he gets destroyed.

but....but.....

and...

dont forget...

Ah i got nothing......

ASOT

wonderfullife wrote: »

Blind hate?

He may very well end up one of the best fighters of all time.

I'm very willing to say he warrants the praise and hype if/when he deserves it.

Beating "pre-suspicious-career-rejuvenation" RDA and 17-11 Michael Johnson added to 17 tomato cans in Russia, does not warrant the existing hype.

His striking is extremely limited and he clearly lost the one fight he was unable to get his opponent to the mat (Tibau). Listen to the commentary on that fight, Rogan and Goldie were pure shocked. They called the fight as a wash-out 30-27 for Tibau.

He has 2 submission wins in the UFC.

One was Johnson - and of Johnson's 11 career losses, 7 have been by submission. He's been vulnerable his entire career on the mat.

Other was Kamal Shalrous, who incidentally is now a pro-wrestler doing WWE-style moves from the top rope.

When he encounters high-level grapplers and BJJ black-belts what has he actually done on the mat?

RDA hit the deck 5 times in that bout. Twice because he chose to attempt a guillotine and jumping guillotine. He didn't get Gleison Tibau down once. He got Pat Healy (purple belt) down once in the first 7 minutes and didn't hold him there.

People are going on about him like he's going around absolutely WRECKING elite grapplers, elite BJJ guys.

He's not. Demian Maia, on the other hand, is literally wrecking the elite of the elite. Gunni did amazingly well to go the distance but it was pure domination.

If he ragdolls Ferguson for 5 rounds and destroys him on the ground, I'll be the first on here to eat humble pie.

Funnily enough, I don't think you'll be so quick to say Khabib was over-rated if he gets destroyed.

Perfect, thats put an awful lot better than saying hes pulling out of fights because hes scared of Ferguson. I agree with alot of what your saying also but at the end of the day he can only fight whats in front of him, obviously this weekend will be a massive test for both fighters. People may be overrating him or you could be underrating him we will find out the weekend

Gamebred

Khabib hasnt been given the opportunity to prove you wrong yet wonder due to injury,


Do you want a bet on username change Khabib wins you have to change yours to Khabibisthegoat or something, Tony wins you can pick mine.

JoeyJJ

Khabib fight has caught the imagination much more than the main event. I can't decide who I think will win or who I want to win. Going to be epic.

Awesomeness

wonderfullife wrote: »

Funny for years it was thrown against Conor - "Who has he beaten though?".

Now, Conor has beaten the consensus P4P #1 at time, Aldo, near-consensus top-3 LW of all-time, Alvarez, add to that Diaz, Holloway, Mendes, Poirier.

And people are talking like Conor has no chance against Khabib?

I'm pointing out the same argument applies to Khabib. Who has he beaten? And the answer is RDA who was 8-4 in UFC at time of fight with 5 decision wins and Michael Johnson who was 8-6 in UFC with 4 decision wins.

That's it. They are the only 2 high-level wins on his entire CV.

If he adds a peak Tony Ferguson to that list then I'll be on board the Khabib-train.

I agree with almost everything you said except for the bolded bit.

Will definitely be putting some money on tony this weekend

wonderfullife

Awesomeness wrote: »

I agree with almost everything you said except for the bolded bit.

Will definitely be putting some money on tony this weekend

Who would you have ahead of Alvarez in top 3?

BJ Penn is a given on all lists.

Who would you have after that? To my mind, Frankie Edgar is below Alvarez body of work at Lightweight. RDA and Pettis careers hit freefall. I don't think you can include Conor on the list yet either.

So it'd be BJ Penn, Alvarez and Benson Henderson if putting together a top 3 of all-time at 155lbs.

As for the rest, I'm just confident Ferguson has too many tools for Khabib. To be fair, Khabib is a one-trick pony who has mastered the one trick but I really believe he will be made to look average by Ferguson.

Django99

wonderfullife wrote: »

Who would you have ahead of Alvarez in top 3?

BJ Penn is a given on all lists.

Who would you have after that? To my mind, Frankie Edgar is below Alvarez body of work at Lightweight. RDA and Pettis careers hit freefall. I don't think you can include Conor on the list yet either.

So it'd be BJ Penn, Alvarez and Benson Henderson if putting together a top 3 of all-time at 155lbs.

As for the rest, I'm just confident Ferguson has too many tools for Khabib. To be fair, Khabib is a one-trick pony who has mastered the one trick but I really believe he will be made to look average by Ferguson.

I would have Edgar, Benson and maybe even even RDA and Pettis ahead of him. His Bellator run was good but I think he let himself down in all UFC fights except against RDA. Badly beaten by Cowboy, arguably beaten by Melendez and Pettis (I think if those fights were judged under the new judging criteria he would have lost) and completely embarrassed by McGregor.

Edit: And now that I mention Melendez I'd put him above Alvarez in the all time list too

Gamebred

Have to say Ferguson is slightly strange but pretty likable comes across well in the embeddeds very driven obviously but seems to have fun,



Hunt Overeem fight getting zero push same with Lando and Rashad fights wouldnt know they were on.

Gamb!t

I want one of those hats

Gamebred

Dare anyone to head over to the forge with one them Khabib t shirts on.

Django99

Did anyone see the EA game simulator UFC put up on Instagram? It had Khabib winning by decision, and tonne honest if the real fight replicates the game I won't be disappointed!

Zero-Cool

Django99 wrote: »

Did anyone see the EA game simulator UFC put up on Instagram? It had Khabib winning by decision, and tonne honest if the real fight replicates the game I won't be disappointed!

They actually have a good record with their simulations. Hopefully this one is wrong. I'd piss myself laughing if Tony pulled this off.

https://twitter.com/EASPORTSUFC/status/837407241330438144

Fromvert

Gamebred wrote: »

Dare anyone to head over to the forge with one them Khabib t shirts on.

Think you'd be alright, how many would even know who Khabib is? :P

mailburner

wonderfullife wrote: »

As for the rest, I'm just confident Ferguson has too many tools for Khabib. To be fair, Khabib is a one-trick pony who has mastered the one trick but I really believe he will be made to look average by Ferguson.

I don't thing you'll be too far wrong there
ferguson is a nightmare to fight no matter where this fight goes
khabib will probably get a couple of takedowns but if this fight goes into the championships rounds I believe tony will take control in a big way
I've a feeling tony might get it done earlier though

Mellor

wonderfullife wrote: »

BJ Penn is a given on all lists.

Who would you have after that? To my mind, Frankie Edgar is below Alvarez body of work at Lightweight. RDA and Pettis careers hit freefall. I don't think you can include Conor on the list yet either.

So it'd be BJ Penn, Alvarez and Benson Henderson if putting together a top 3 of all-time at 155lbs.

I don't know how you can exclude LW era Frankie Edgar, especially is that's your top 3;

• Penn's lightweight record was solid. (Most of the red marks on his record are from ill-advised random jumps to WW, and horrible recent FW fights)
  He was only ever beaten three times at lightweight. Two of them were Frankie Edgar.
  
• Benson Henderson lost to Frankie twice imo. The first was a close fight, and going either way was ok. But the second was a robbery.

Frankie left the division as the champ imo. (the lineal title still ended up with Conor though). If you doubt LW Frankie's status in the division go watch Frankie v Maynard II and III

Penn and Frankie are 1 and 2 for me. And due to his Dream/Belator run Eddie is number 3. (So I still agree with the top-3 LW of all-time comment). After that you are looking at Bendo, Pettis, RDA imo. Maybe Gomi is you go oldschool. Insert Conor where appropriate after a few more fights.

wonderfullife

Mellor wrote: »

I don't know how you can exclude LW era Frankie Edgar, especially is that's your top 3;

• Penn's lightweight record was solid. (Most of the red marks on his record are from ill-advised random jumps to WW, and horrible recent FW fights)
  He was only ever beaten three times at lightweight. Two of them were Frankie Edgar.
  
• Benson Henderson lost to Frankie twice imo. The first was a close fight, and going either way was ok. But the second was a robbery.

Frankie left the division as the champ imo. (the lineal title still ended up with Conor though). If you doubt LW Frankie's status in the division go watch Frankie v Maynard II and III

Penn and Frankie are 1 and 2 for me. And due to his Dream/Belator run Eddie is number 3. (So I still agree with the top-3 LW of all-time comment). After that you are looking at Bendo, Pettis, RDA imo. Maybe Gomi is you go oldschool. Insert Conor where appropriate after a few more fights.

You're right.

It's so easy to let Frankie's recent past sort of mask his LW achievements (i.e. it's easier to think of him these days resembling a bantamweight). That being said wins over BJ, Sherk, Miller, Maynard and some dodgy judging aside against Benson aside, he should be in the top 3 with BJ and Eddie.

I guess my point was Conor has legitimately demolished Jose Aldo and Eddie Alvarez, and both of those guys are the elite of the elite. Whereas for Khabib, you can make a case this upcoming fight is his first truly elite opponent.

I'm not going to throw out accusations but the RDA that fought Khabib was not the RDA we saw look like a machine thereafter. Whether it was the change in camp or, cough, a change in supplements...... it's not right to say Khabib fought the same guy.

I'm clearly not sold on the Khabib hype and these days that means I'm a "hater". I actually really like his personality and if he beats Ferguson i'll be a believer.

I just can't see it happening at all. People are massively underestimating Ferguson (and Eddie Bravo for that matter) and vastly over-rating Khabib. I know Eddie comes across as a conspiracy stoner nutjob for those who don't follow BJJ but he's a steely competitor and I'm certain he'll have had a big input into this camp.

And no matter how many times I go over it in my mind, the Tibau fight sticks out like a sore thumb. Not simply for the fact Khabib clearly lost the fight but for the fact he couldn't get him to the mat. I think he'll have similar problems taking Ferguson down and keeping him down.

Ferguson by D'arce/RNC inside 3 rounds.

Mellor

wonderfullife wrote: »

I know Eddie comes across as a conspiracy stoner nutjob...

To be fair he is a conspiracy stoner nutjob.
But he is also a extremely good and unorthodox grappler.

Ferguson by D'arce/RNC inside 3 rounds.

I'm close to 50/50 on it. I'd well believe Fergusson can stuff enough takedowns to make this fight interesting. If he stuffs it repeatedly, he gets the TKO imo.

I've a bet on a Ferguson Hunt KO double just as the priced was juicy.

Gamebred

Are you taking the bet Wonder username change for a few months?

dashoonage

Gamebred wrote: »

Are you taking the bet Wonder username change for a few months?

He'll do nothing....

Awesomeness

wonderfullife wrote: »

Who would you have ahead of Alvarez in top 3?

BJ Penn is a given on all lists.

Who would you have after that? To my mind, Frankie Edgar is below Alvarez body of work at Lightweight. RDA and Pettis careers hit freefall. I don't think you can include Conor on the list yet either.

So it'd be BJ Penn, Alvarez and Benson Henderson if putting together a top 3 of all-time at 155lbs.

As for the rest, I'm just confident Ferguson has too many tools for Khabib. To be fair, Khabib is a one-trick pony who has mastered the one trick but I really believe he will be made to look average by Ferguson.

I would go with BJ, Benson and Frankie. I would have Sherk up there too.

Eddie belongs in the next group along with Giblert, Gomi. A lot of these guys best work - Eddie included was outside the UFC. And they have all beaten each other.

When I think of who was the greatest ever you think who was champion and made it look easy.(GSP, Silva, Hughes, Jones etc). Winning the belt and getting dominated in your first defense doesn't do that. The only lw that really stands alone though is BJ

Gamebred

Dos Anjos deserves a mention he was unbeatable in that run he had for a while absolutely murdered fighters in basically their prime finished Bendo which is very rare, had sex with Pettis and merked Cowboy who was on a 8 fight win streak against seriously good opposition, butchered Nate Diaz aswell,

Awesomeness

Lightweight is stacked right now and always has been. For a long time it was outside the UFC though. Gomi, Hellboy, Aoki, Sakurai, Melendez, Eddie were all top fighters.

I would say its always been the most competitive division

Django99

Gamebred wrote: »

Dos Anjos deserves a mention he was unbeatable in that run he had for a while absolutely murdered fighters in basically their prime finished Bendo which is very rare, had sex with Pettis and merked Cowboy who was on a 8 fight win streak against seriously good opposition, butchered Nate Diaz aswell,

Had sex with Pettis!

Agree he looked unbeatable for a while, suggestions seem to point towards USADA but I just think the top LWs are so close that no one can stay on top for long.

Brussels Sprout

I only just realised that Paul Craig is on the Prelims.
This card keeps delivering.

Django99

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I only just realised that Paul Craig is on the Prelims.
This card keeps delivering.

He did an interview with Ariel yesterday, seems a bit of a character and definitely marketable.

Hope he does well he's looked impressive enough so far. This fight will probably take place mostly on the ground and it's hard to know who has the advantage.

TheChosenOne_

I'm guessing he won't be, but does anyone reckon or know if McGregor will be in attendance at UFC209 on Saturday

As the real 155 champion you should think that he should be there to say something about the interim bum title that is on offer and also to maybe promote an eventual fight later in the year with the winner...

Gamebred

Surely not, hes angling for a boxing fight doesnt want his name associated with a potential mma fight.

Mellor

Django99 wrote: »

Hope he does well he's looked impressive enough so far. This fight will probably take place mostly on the ground and it's hard to know who has the advantage.

Both are undefeated with a string of dub wins. Craig appears to attack off his back more, and Tyson moreso subs from the top - including a nasty "dogbar" (inverted kneebar) from top half.

Great fight for the prelims imo.

Django99

Mellor wrote: »

Both are undefeated with a string of dub wins. Craig appears to attack off his back more, and Tyson moreso subs from the top - including a nasty "dogbar" (inverted kneebar) from top half.

Great fight for the prelims imo.

Makes for a great scrap so. Craig has only recently started training full time so it's clear he wants to make a go of it.

That dogbar sounds nasty, any high profile subs some from it?

AlmightyCushion

Django99 wrote: »

Makes for a great scrap so. Craig has only recently started training full time so it's clear he wants to make a go of it.

That dogbar sounds nasty, any high profile subs some from it?

If I remember right, in the TUF season with Cathal Pendred, there was a guy who used a dogbar against the guy he was fighting to get into the house. It was nasty as fúck to even look at and the guy was still able to keep going after it. Think the fight went another round after it as well. It was a brilliant fight.