41 new ICR centre cars

goingnowhere

highdef wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was just the control cars that were limited to 70mph (I remember something about them being from DART units or something like that). A bogie change for the control cars could hardly be that big a job??? I know it's not happening anyway so this is all just hypothetical ramblings.

Bogies were the easiest problem to get fixed and was fixed, 3 of the 5 ran on DART bogies as they were on hand at no cost, the last 2 came with BT22 bogies and the first 3 were upgraded late in their lives.

Two problems
1. Structural strength, major work was needed to upgrade the cab end to permit higher speeds (remember the Mk3pp was a hand made Inchicore economy solution to lack of funding for a DMU fleet)

2. Brake force, the push pulls were limited to 6 coaches due the generator supply. In hauled mode 90mph was permitted in certain cases but the push pull is what was needed for efficient operation. Even the Mk4 fleet has a speed limit if in short formation. The ICR's have EP brakes so train length is no factor

L1011

thewexman93 wrote: »

How on Earth does it cost over 3.5million to purchase a railway carriage?

At that price we should be making them ourselves, and create a few jobs in the process

It would cost vastly more to make them ourselves and we'd need to lay off all the staff when the order was complete.

The engine, transmission and battery pack - which are being purchased from MTU/ZF/Rolls Royce - would make up a sizeable element of the cost.

Jamie2k9

No questions this is not good value. The short term fix was a good idea in 2016 its lost all of its purpose since. These coaches will have little impact on overcrowding.

Now lets see how much of a mess NTA make of the next order...

Battery packs are not exactly “green” and bi-mode fleet for GDA isn't either.

Jamie2k9

L1011 wrote: »

It would cost vastly more to make them ourselves and we'd need to lay off all the staff when the order was complete.

The engine, transmission and battery pack - which are being purchased from MTU/ZF/Rolls Royce - would make up a sizeable element of the cost.

New fleet of DMU with ability to convert to EMU in future would deliver a cheaper costs per carriage and meet the needs of commuter traffic.

NTA are trying to fool the public that battery power is great plus give an impression rail transport isn't green now. Its just a smoke screen for inaction by them and Government with electrification plus providing new PT to reduce dependency on cars.

thewexman93

The old push pull fleet would be able to release some of the current strain and allow more modern stock to be used on busier and faster routes.

For example, if the best 12 carriages could have been preserved then they could operate in 2's or 3's on some of the lesser used routes such as Limerick/ballybrophy or Limerick/Waterford, or Limerick/athenry. This would free up some sets for use on overcrowded routes in high demand.

A commuter set sits nearly all day in the yard in Waterford after it's early morning work, waiting to operate on the waterford/Limerick route in the evening. Such a waste of limited resources. A loco and even 1 old coach would be able to do this job

end of the road

thewexman93 wrote: »

The old push pull fleet would be able to release some of the current strain and allow more modern stock to be used on busier and faster routes.

For example, if the best 12 carriages could have been preserved then they could operate in 2's or 3's on some of the lesser used routes such as Limerick/ballybrophy or Limerick/Waterford, or Limerick/athenry. This would free up some sets for use on overcrowded routes in high demand.

A commuter set sits nearly all day in the yard in Waterford after it's early morning work, waiting to operate on the waterford/Limerick route in the evening. Such a waste of limited resources. A loco and even 1 old coach would be able to do this job

agreed theoretically, but to be fair a loco and 1 carrage would be an even bigger waste.
had the mk3 remained, then realy sticking them on galway, direct limericks and possibly increase belfast to hourly would have been a much better use.
all hypothetical now of course.

Political Wall Map

L1011 wrote: »

It would cost vastly more to make them ourselves and we'd need to lay off all the staff when the order was complete.

The engine, transmission and battery pack - which are being purchased from MTU/ZF/Rolls Royce - would make up a sizeable element of the cost.

Some of the cost would be due to compatibility modifications to the existing fleet as the goal is to install the new cars into existing sets.

Making sure old and new are compatible will take up some of the additional costs.

IE would have hundreds of modifications since the fleet was introduced. These modifications would have to be completed by Rotem.

Also the problem of fitting in everything on the underside of the cars. I suspect there will be space issues with the power packs and aux equipment such as battery packs and transformers. Definitely will be on the existing sets. maybe not so much on the new builds.

But it would seem that 2.5 mill per car and then the rest is a mix of making sure the new are compatible with the old, and Rotem realizing that IE are desperate for a quick solution to the capacity issue and whacking an extra few percent onto the price.

Idbatterim

lads was there a public consultation or ten on these new carriages? what is the general public, the experts they are on all things transport related, have issues with them? what if somebody will be offended by the colour of them?

Del.Monte

Idbatterim wrote: »

lads was there a public consultation or ten on these new carriages? what is the general public, the experts they are on all things transport related, have issues with them? what if somebody will be offended by the colour of them?

The public will be the last people considered by CIE in the design, colour or anything else to do with vehicles used to transport their customers.

end of the road

Idbatterim wrote: »

lads was there a public consultation or ten on these new carriages?

no, why would there be?

Idbatterim wrote: »

what is the general public, the experts they are on all things transport related, have issues with them? what if somebody will be offended by the colour of them?

has anyone expressed that they are offended with the color of the existing fleet of which the new carrages will be a part of?
the carrages will be perfectly fine for the routes they are actually designed for once they are eventually released to them.

theguzman

I personally think that pushing this green technology into trains is the height of stupidity and economic madness. If we still had steam engine's burning coal it is still better for the Environment than having all those passengers driving.

Diesel Electric DMU's in their current format are incredibly green and all these new technologies will lead to us to a situation like modern cars with lower reliability and increased breakdowns. Fix it until its broke seems to be the mantra.

Electrification is the answer if you wanted to possibly add even more green credentials to trains or a dual electric Diesel running for a mixture of electrified and non electrified track. Operating battery trains like Irish Rail are planning is worse the environment due to the awful eco effects of Lithium mining; the majority of our Electricity is primarily produced from fossil fuel so you just relocate those emissions from the train to a Power Plant smokestack somewhere else.

What is needed in Irish Rail is unions banned, extra trains, electrification, double tracking and timetables that suit, new routes and potential outsourcing of important decisions away from the jobs for life and the disgraceful management within Iarnrod Eireann.

end of the road

theguzman wrote: »

What is needed in Irish Rail is unions banned,

well no, such is not needed and won't be happening.

theguzman wrote: »

potential outsourcing of important decisions away from the jobs for life and the disgraceful management within Iarnrod Eireann.

that took place years ago, they are called the NTA.
the company of course are going to have to have some input given they are running the railway and do have the expertese on rail operations.

Political Wall Map

theguzman wrote: »

I personally think that pushing this green technology into trains is the height of stupidity and economic madness. If we still had steam engine's burning coal it is still better for the Environment than having all those passengers driving.

Diesel Electric DMU's in their current format are incredibly green and all these new technologies will lead to us to a situation like modern cars with lower reliability and increased breakdowns. Fix it until its broke seems to be the mantra.

Electrification is the answer if you wanted to possibly add even more green credentials to trains or a dual electric Diesel running for a mixture of electrified and non electrified track. Operating battery trains like Irish Rail are planning is worse the environment due to the awful eco effects of Lithium mining; the majority of our Electricity is primarily produced from fossil fuel so you just relocate those emissions from the train to a Power Plant smokestack somewhere else.

What is needed in Irish Rail is unions banned, extra trains, electrification, double tracking and timetables that suit, new routes and potential outsourcing of important decisions away from the jobs for life and the disgraceful management within Iarnrod Eireann.

Its nothing to do with Green. Its about fuel savings, and more reliable powerpacks.....

Jamie2k9

Political Wall Map wrote: »

Its nothing to do with Green. Its about fuel savings, and more reliable powerpacks.....

How many years will it take to generate these "fuel savings" in costs once the capital spend has been deducted. I honestly dons't think there is a major reliability issue with power packs on ICRs. There is no need for any changes to the fleet or at least right now when there are bigger issues.

personally think that pushing this green technology into trains is the height of stupidity and economic madness. If we still had steam engine's burning coal it is still better for the Environment than having all those passengers driving.

Good for a photo opportunity pretending to do something while doing nothing at the same time.

Captain Chaos

Idbatterim wrote: »

lads was there a public consultation or ten on these new carriages? what is the general public, the experts they are on all things transport related, have issues with them? what if somebody will be offended by the colour of them?

They were 41 options taken up as part of the order delivered in 2007. They are just addon intermediates to make 41 set 1 carriage longer.

You won't be able to tell them apart when they get here other than they will be cleaner than the rest of the set unless you know the serial numbers to look out for when the train is stopped.

goingnowhere

The power packs have a finite life so replacement is a fact of life

The savings are immediate, full hybrid mode is looking at 30% saving in fuel costs plus its a stage V engine so puts out even less gunk into the air.

Price of oil can only go up and is a major cost item for Irish Rail so saving 30% on that and get improved performance is a win win.

Political Wall Map

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

How many years will it take to generate these "fuel savings" in costs once the capital spend has been deducted. I honestly dons't think there is a major reliability issue with power packs on ICRs. There is no need for any changes to the fleet or at least right now when there are bigger issues.


Good for a photo opportunity pretending to do something while doing nothing at the same time.

ICR's around the country with powerpacks isolated in service. Will only get worse as the fleet ages and time for maintenance is reduced as demand for capacity increases. So makes sense to introduce technology that can reduce demand on the engines in the long term.

Fuel savings will be generated from Day 1 and the cost savings associated.

Sensible thing to do is retrofit now while the funding is there. Still another 20 years plus of service for the ICRs.

Jamie2k9

goingnowhere wrote: »

The power packs have a finite life so replacement is a fact of life

The savings are immediate, full hybrid mode is looking at 30% saving in fuel costs plus its a stage V engine so puts out even less gunk into the air.

Price of oil can only go up and is a major cost item for Irish Rail so saving 30% on that and get improved performance is a win win.

30% and how much extra for each unit replacement in capital over current type? Everything has a life so the net savings will be lower than equivalent 30% in fuel costs once all costs are factored in.

201, 29s will cost them a lot more in fuel than an ICR yet no replacements particularly for 29s which are staying long term...

goingnowhere

Replacement would need to be stage V anyway so the cost has to be paid, the only extra cost is the hybrid stuff

Jamie2k9

Political Wall Map wrote: »

ICR's around the country with powerpacks isolated in service. Will only get worse as the fleet ages and time for maintenance is reduced as demand for capacity increases. So makes sense to introduce technology that can reduce demand on the engines in the long term.

Fuel savings will be generated from Day 1 and the cost savings associated.

Sensible thing to do is retrofit now while the funding is there. Still another 20 years plus of service for the ICRs.

Any stats to back up power packs isolation occurrences?

Im not against the change. Im sure it will deliver various benefits but on paper must benefits are overstated to what is actually achieved.

Political Wall Map

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Any stats to back up power packs isolation occurrences?

Im not against the change. Im sure it will deliver various benefits but on paper must benefits are overstated to what is actually achieved.

Just listen to them going by you kid.... that's all the stats you need. :cool:

Jamie2k9

goingnowhere wrote: »

Replacement would need to be stage V anyway so the cost has to be paid, the only extra cost is the hybrid stuff

So 29s will get the same or will there be an exemption?

Political Wall Map

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So 29s will get the same or will there be an exemption?

No exemption needed if not planned to be changed. If IE plan on changing the powerpacks then maybe IIIB under derogation or else Stage V.

Jamie2k9

Political Wall Map wrote: »

No exemption needed if not planned to be changed. If IE plan on changing the powerpacks then maybe IIIB under derogation or else Stage V.

So fuel saving policies selectively applied.

Political Wall Map

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So fuel saving policies selectively applied.

Yep. Exactly. Larger fleet. More miles. More journeys. So they chose the option that makes the most sense based on funding constraints.....

Political Wall Map

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So fuel saving policies selectively applied.

I think that because the new intermediate cars are NEW, they must have Stage V powerpacks to comply with emissions legislation.

Political Wall Map

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

So fuel saving policies selectively applied.

Also, if for example the Stage V or hybrid powerpacks do not fit into existing space of the underside, derogation can be sought to allow to fit a IIIB powerpack if that was to fit. Dont forget that Stage V and hybrid comes with added exhaust, battery space, and whatever else they have.

So sometimes not selectively but the situation faced can determine the outcome.

Its happened on several re-power projects abroad.

goingnowhere

The new engine is a direct slot in replacement, it all comes on a raft with all the bits and pieces, lift in lift out

The only design issue is where to put the battery unit, easy on the B cars at there a chunk of space at the end which doesn't have a toilet

Political Wall Map

goingnowhere wrote: »

The new engine is a direct slot in replacement, it all comes on a raft with all the bits and pieces, lift in lift out

The only design issue is where to put the battery unit, easy on the B cars at there a chunk of space at the end which doesn't have a toilet

Its not the actual powerpack. (I have my doubts that it will be as easy as you say).... it would be the location of the transformer probably 500kg, moving of existing fuel and air pipes to accommodate the new envelope of the powerpack, the hybrid batteries at 350 kg per battery will be larger, heavier than the existing...... im sure there are more things than we would think of.....

And lets not forget, the objective would be fit to the entire 22000 fleet.... so there will be a lot of work in this.

Political Wall Map

goingnowhere wrote: »

The new engine is a direct slot in replacement, it all comes on a raft with all the bits and pieces, lift in lift out

The only design issue is where to put the battery unit, easy on the B cars at there a chunk of space at the end which doesn't have a toilet

Is the transformer in the new powerpack?