41 new ICR centre cars

GM228

IEs best kept secret?

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/151116_2016_Rail_Review_Report_Complete_Online.pdf

41 new ICR centre cars apparntly to create more 4 and 5 car sets.

4.2 ICR new center car vehicles

Analysis by IÉ has shown that existing consists will struggle to respond to peaks in passenger demand from 2016. It is therefore proposed to purchase additional intermediate B cars and reconfigure train sizes to address capacity issues. These vehicles could be handled by the existing Portlaoise Depot with a small number of additional staff. This option provides an efficient solution by increasing capacity on existing units and therefore do not incur additional manpower cost associated with implementing additional services. The complexity in achieving systems compatibility would mean the only feasible option to lengthen existing trains is to procure intermediate cars from Mitsui/ Rotem. It is expected that an order would be placed under the existing 2004 Mitsui Framework Agreement (subject to legal confirmation on the validity of the contract term) or alternatively via a direct order procurement derogation. It should be noted that there is no current provision in the capital plans for the purchase of additional vehicles. Exploratory discussions with Mitsui has confirmed that the vehicles could be manufactured and delivered in 2 years from order at a provisional cost of €1.895m per vehicle assuming similar specification to 2008 when a similar vehicle cost €1.646m. Note that costs exclude VAT, excise duty and other project costs which is estimated would result in a cost per vehicle of €2.4m (not inclusive of project management cost). CRR approval would be needed however should be relatively straightforward. As a means of maximising seating capacity, IE could also review options with Mitsui for these intermediate vehicles to be fitted with air-line seating. Initial estimates show that this may increase capacity in these vehicles from 72 to 80 seats while also providing the capacity for additional bike storage which is becoming an increasing requirement from our customers. This design change, however would necessitate a revisit of the APIS (CRR Approvals) process from a crash-worthiness, passenger load, and evacuation perspective

Does the below quote make it sound lime more than just a proposal?

New Intermediate ICR vehicles Subject to contract award in Q1 2017, Mitsui have indicated delivery could take place in phases from Q1 2019 to Q3 2019, with entry into service from Q2 2019. These will be confirmed on contract award

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

IEs best kept secret?

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/151116_2016_Rail_Review_Report_Complete_Online.pdf

41 new ICR centre cars apparntly to create more 4 and 5 car sets.


Does the below quote make it sound lime more than just a proposal?

I believe they are looking into it but I would be surprised if they had it official confirmed by Q1 2017 and I don't see finances been available that soon either.
______

What IE should be doing before any order is placed is trailing a few 5 standard car sets within existing fleet to see how suitable and needed these extra cars as we are back at the same issue where Dublin commuter is not suitable and that's where most will go.

It's the cheap and easy solution to put it nicely.

tabbey

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

______

It's the cheap and easy solution to put it nicely.

At E1.9m per vehicle, it is hardly cheap.

goingnowhere

Thats actually a good price as its on the back of an existing framework agreement

A fresh tender today would probably come in at 2.1-2.3milion/coach

Jamie2k9

goingnowhere wrote: »

Thats actually a good price as its on the back of an existing framework agreement

A fresh tender today would probably come in at 2.1-2.3milion/coach

Very debatable on costs however should the needs of the railway not trump cost?

GM228

goingnowhere wrote: »

Thats actually a good price as its on the back of an existing framework agreement

A fresh tender today would probably come in at 2.1-2.3milion/coach

tabbey wrote: »

At E1.9m per vehicle, it is hardly cheap.

They are estimating €2.4M per vehicle, not €1.9M, and that excludes the project management costs.

Vic_08

They've just got done scrapping a fleet of IC trains that had easily another 20 years life in them, still have a fleet of diesel railcars sitting idle in Limerick, are proposing a bunch of line closures, have any number of permanent way projects that are badly needed but want to use scarce resources to buy more new train carriages?

devnull

But the new carriages will be shiny and new?

tabbey

devnull wrote: »

But the new carriages will be shiny and new?

Until someone puts his boots on the seat opposite,spills tea on the carpet or throws an egg at the windows.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

They are estimating €2.4M per vehicle, not €1.9M, and that excludes the project management costs.

That only slightly cheaper than last order. Would be better bringing the 2700 forward if they have cash to spare before placing such an order.

Rough calculation shows the first order for 183 had a cheaper average cost per coach, second 51 carriage order slightly dearer while the proposed 2.4 million sits half way between previous order costs.

tabbey

If 1.646m euro was the price for a similar vehicle in 2008, where do figures like 2.4 million come from? Is it all due to currency fluctuations? Inflation has been little more than zero in the interim.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

That only slightly cheaper than last order. Would be better bringing the 2700 forward if they have cash to spare before placing such an order.

Rough calculation shows the first order for 183 had a cheaper average cost per coach, second 51 carriage order slightly dearer while the proposed 2.4 million sits half way between previous order costs.

They are bringing back the 2700s anyway, tender for which should issue next month.

I understood the last order came to €2.39M per vehicle.

Isambard

tabbey wrote: »

If 1.646m euro was the price for a similar vehicle in 2008, where do figures like 2.4 million come from? Is it all due to currency fluctuations? Inflation has been little more than zero in the interim.

VAT.

Isambard

My first thought was MkIV replacement.

GM228

tabbey wrote: »

If 1.646m euro was the price for a similar vehicle in 2008, where do figures like 2.4 million come from? Is it all due to currency fluctuations? Inflation has been little more than zero in the interim.

There is a difference of €0.249M per car, 2008 price is ex VAT and other costs, €2.4M is including VAT etc.

Also note the initial orders were for a greater amount of cars probably meaning a cheaper build price per car.

end of the road

as welcome as these will be it doesn't change the fact that they are still unsuitable for suburban operations and certain lines which should be all ICR operation won't be. so ultimately they are an inferior solution to the dublin area problem. they would future proof the ICR fleet if it was kept to what it is supposed to be operating though.
what we really need are.
1. something to run the heuston suburbans that are actually appropriate for them and which don't' struggle like the ICRS do meaning the ICRS can go back to what they were supposed to be doing.
2. all mark 4 sets returned to traffic if they aren't all ready with a refurbish to a style fitting what the cork service should be providing (as in a proper intercity train rather then a regional train)
won't happen though.

GM228

end of the road wrote: »

as welcome as these will be it doesn't change the fact that they are still unsuitable for suburban operations and certain lines which should be all ICR operation won't be. so ultimately they are an inferior solution to the dublin area problem. they would future proof the ICR fleet if it was kept to what it is supposed to be operating though.
what we really need are.
1. something to run the heuston suburbans that are actually appropriate for them and which don't' struggle like the ICRS do meaning the ICRS can go back to what they were supposed to be doing.
2. all mark 4 sets returned to traffic if they aren't all ready with a refurbish to a style fitting what the cork service should be providing (as in a proper intercity train rather then a regional train)
won't happen though.

11 2700 sets are returning in due course to take ICRs off suburban runs including the PPT services and to take commuter stock off IC routes such as the Rosslare line.

end of the road

GM228 wrote: »

11 2700 sets are returning in due course to take ICRs off suburban runs including the PPT services and to take commuter stock off IC routes such as the Rosslare line.

i don't see it happening that way though i'm afraid. 2900s could have been removed from rosslare years ago, they're really was nothing stopping that from happening. i will believe it when i see it personally but i'm not sure i will be seeing it.

GM228

end of the road wrote: »

i don't see it happening that way though i'm afraid. 2900s could have been removed from rosslare years ago, they're really was nothing stopping that from happening. i will believe it when i see it personally but i'm not sure i will be seeing it.

29000s only remain on one link becuase an ICR can't handle the morning return of the 16.37 service (the 5.35 ex Rosslare) as the 5.35 is essentially a commuter service from Gorey to Dundalk.

Until a free 4 car ICR becomes available it is best to keep it that way. The choice was a 3 car ICR or 4 car 29000, the latter is the better choice. When the 2700s return they will release ICRs for the service.

end of the road

GM228 wrote: »

29000s only remain on one link becuase an ICR can't handle the morning return of the 16.37 service (the 5.35 ex Rosslare) as the 5.35 is essentially a commuter service from Gorey to Dundalk.

that's not correct. 2900s remain very regular on this line and are becoming even more regular. ICRs absolutely can handle those particular services as loadings on them south of greystones never justified a 2900 and it's doubtful enough passengers go from wexford to dundalk to justify that service remaining rather then just operating to dublin. i'm talking from experience here as i was a very regular user of that service as far as dublin until thankfully i didn't need to anymore as it was possibly the slowest service in the country. we pay enough on this line without having to deal with 2900 rattle traps. with the greatist of respect to you as you are just giving the information you have and IT'S IE who i couldn't throw as far as i could throw, IE'S convenience or excuses aren't the users problem. and i'm afraid that is all this is down to at the end of the day. i have no doubt about it considering it is IE.

GM228 wrote: »

Until a free 4 car ICR becomes available it is best to keep it that way. The choice was a 3 car ICR or 4 car 29000, the latter is the better choice. When the 2700s return they will release ICRs for the service.

but they are availible. it's IE'S mismanaging that means they are tied up on maynooths and m3 parkways among other services where they aren't suitable. the 2700s aren't going to make a jot of difference to long distance services out of connolly regardless of what IE say. anything freed up will stay within the dublin area and connolly long distance will still continue to suffer a mediocre service.

Del.Monte

GM228 wrote: »

29000s only remain on one link becuase an ICR can't handle the morning return of the 16.37 service (the 5.35 ex Rosslare) as the 5.35 is essentially a commuter service from Gorey to Dundalk.

Until a free 4 car ICR becomes available it is best to keep it that way. The choice was a 3 car ICR or 4 car 29000, the latter is the better choice. When the 2700s return they will release ICRs for the service.

Not so - 29000s appear at random and are completely unacceptable for inter-city work.

tabbey

GM228 wrote: »

29000s only remain on one link becuase an ICR can't handle the morning return of the 16.37 service (the 5.35 ex Rosslare) as the 5.35 is essentially a commuter service from Gorey to Dundalk.

Until a free 4 car ICR becomes available it is best to keep it that way. The choice was a 3 car ICR or 4 car 29000, the latter is the better choice. When the 2700s return they will release ICRs for the service.

The 0940 from Dublin is never well loaded.
From casual observation, I cannot say how often it is operated by 29 class, but on the odd time that I have used it, it is usually a 29. The up return is busier, but still not much so. I guess IR put a 29 on it because it is effectively a commuter service once it gets back to Dublin.

22 class is the minimum standard that should be tolerated on the Wexford line. God knows even 22s are not a great standard either, they should be called inter regional railcars. It is only because Mk IV and De Dietrich are so poor, that we praise the so called ICR.
Combined with the slow running of Rosslare services behind Greystones DARTs, the substandard rolling stock are just another nail in the DSER coffin.

Death by a thousand cuts, IR's established way of running down a line to the point where closure becomes the preferred option.

Jamie2k9

tabbey wrote: »

The 0940 from Dublin is never well loaded.
From casual observation, I cannot say how often it is operated by 29 class, but on the odd time that I have used it, it is usually a 29. The up return is busier, but still not much so. I guess IR put a 29 on it because it is effectively a commuter service once it gets back to Dublin.

22 class is the minimum standard that should be tolerated on the Wexford line. God knows even 22s are not a great standard either, they should be called inter regional railcars. It is only because Mk IV and De Dietrich are so poor, that we praise the so called ICR.
Combined with the slow running of Rosslare services behind Greystones DARTs, the substandard rolling stock are just another nail in the DSER coffin.

Death by a thousand cuts, IR's established way of running down a line to the point where closure becomes the preferred option.

09.40 is an ICR a lot of the time, as for the ICR's in general apart from prehaps more conferrable seats they are great.

GM228

end of the road wrote: »

that's not correct. 2900s remain very regular on this line and are becoming even more regular. ICRs absolutely can handle those particular services as loadings on them south of greystones never justified a 2900 and it's doubtful enough passengers go from wexford to dundalk to justify that service remaining rather then just operating to dublin. i'm talking from experience here as i was a very regular user of that service as far as dublin until thankfully i didn't need to anymore as it was possibly the slowest service in the country. we pay enough on this line without having to deal with 2900 rattle traps. with the greatist of respect to you as you are just giving the information you have and IT'S IE who i couldn't throw as far as i could throw, IE'S convenience or excuses aren't the users problem. and i'm afraid that is all this is down to at the end of the day. i have no doubt about it considering it is IE.



but they are availible. it's IE'S mismanaging that means they are tied up on maynooths and m3 parkways among other services where they aren't suitable. the 2700s aren't going to make a jot of difference to long distance services out of connolly regardless of what IE say. anything freed up will stay within the dublin area and connolly long distance will still continue to suffer a mediocre service.

29000s do appear on other services from time to time yes (same happens on the Sligo line) due to set shortages, failures etc, but the 16.37 and 05.35 are the last remaining services rostered for them. 29000s are appearing less often on other services except on a Friday when the midday is also a 29000.

Any ICRs freed up will be destined for IC services and won't remain in the Dublin area, that's part of the reason for bringing back the 2700s.

ICRs on the Maynooth and M3 services are all 3 car ICRs (bar 1 set), a 3 car ICR is not suitable for the 16.37.

Del.Monte wrote: »

Not so - 29000s appear at random and are completely unacceptable for inter-city work.

I agree they are unacceptable for IC work, but as above they are only rostered for one service which should change in due course.

Generally everything bar the 16.37 is an ICR, it's not very common anymore for a 29000 to vice an ICR link these days bar a failure.

end of the road

GM228 wrote: »

29000s do appear on other services from time to time yes (same happens on the Sligo line) due to set shortages, failures etc, but the 16.37 and 05.35 are the last remaining services rostered for them. 29000s are appearing less often on other services except on a Friday when the midday is also a 29000.

i'm sorry but that doesn't match my experience. i use the line a lot and 29s are very regular.

GM228 wrote: »

Any ICRs freed up will be destined for IC services and won't remain in the Dublin area, that's part of the reason for bringing back the 2700s.

i guess time will tell but i don't trust that IE will deliver. i will believe it when i see it

GM228 wrote: »

ICRs on the Maynooth and M3 services are all 3 car ICRs (bar 1 set), a 3 car ICR is not suitable for the 16.37.

had they bothered to implement selective door opening then i should think that would have helped hugely with that problem.

GM228 wrote: »

I agree they are unacceptable for IC work, but as above they are only rostered for one service which should change in due course.

Generally everything bar the 16.37 is an ICR, it's not very common anymore for a 29000 to vice an ICR link these days bar a failure.

sadly booked working and actual working are 2 very different things and from my experience as i said 29s are very regular and very common.

dowlingm

If there is money then I would argue for an order of something like NIR's Class 4000s. Getting more IC/end door cars is a nonsense but something faster than a 27 might be useful at times.

Even better would be an electrodiesel to utilise DART catenary but IE won't get that sort of money.

XPS_Zero

dowlingm wrote: »

If there is money then I would argue for an order of something like NIR's Class 4000s. Getting more IC/end door cars is a nonsense but something faster than a 27 might be useful at times.

Even better would be an electrodiesel to utilise DART catenary but IE won't get that sort of money.

You taking about these Translink ones?

Don't CAF make them so we already have a relationship with them?

end of the road

XPS_Zero wrote: »

You taking about these Translink ones?

Don't CAF make them so we already have a relationship with them?

correct. they would be absolutely ideal for the heuston suburbans.

kc56

end of the road wrote: »

correct. they would be absolutely ideal for the heuston suburbans.

Except that they would be another type and need a whole new maintenance set-up. Plus, many of the Heuston 'suburbans' double up as transfers to Portlaoise TCD. Makes economic sense, in a company starved of resources, to add to the ICR fleet as well as being both the cheapest and quickest options to increase capacity to meet growing traffic on all routes.

Jamie2k9

If you were going to change spec, ICR manufacturer could easily do it but these middle cars are the easy and cheap solution.

Going to CAF then it's more less ordering new model 2900 which shouldn't be a problem either.

kc56

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If you were going to change spec, ICR manufacturer could easily do it but these middle cars are the easy and cheap solution.

Going to CAF then it's more less ordering new model 2900 which shouldn't be a problem either.

The review also discussed using airplane style seating layout, no tables, for additional capacity in the new ICR cars but that would also require additional design and safety evaluation and slow the process.