41 new ICR centre cars

TranslatorPS

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121687942#Comment_121687942

Ireland can buy buses right off the market (union requirements notwithstanding) and they're usually somehow certified, or otherwise require some sort of new certification. The railway is different as it runs essentially custom-tailored stock due to the 1600 mm gauge.

Also one doesn't really compare to the other, the safety levels required of the two are hardly comparable.

dowlingm

At the same time, I think people were expecting more commonality - Rotem had all the designs and the experience of the original 22s. Clearly they couldn’t replicate it exactly and Irish Rail presumably had improvement requests of their own, but comparing it to a new design, such as the new DARTs will be, is surely inapposite.

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121722865#Comment_121722865

Someone mentioned the staggering volume of changes that had occurred from the original design somewhere on this thread.

They've had a mild refit (new seat covers, carpets, side walls, USB power, lighting I think?) but there's also been mechanical changes.

I also presume the new units have the new gearboxes that are in trial on another unit but that's just a guess.

goingnowhere

The 41 have the stage 5 engine + ZF gearbox and the electric machine for the hybrid mode which is currently unused.

The parts simply are not available or no longer compliant so you can't build the same. The structure as in the bodyshell, bogies etc is the same. Pretty sure the door mechanisms are the same, same for brakes. Seats are the same, but come with the Muirhead leather trim for factory (Rotem now offer this to other customers...) The wiring loom is different, PIS, reservation displays, CCTV are different

goingnowhere

Just a correction to that the anti-climbers on the car body ends are structurally different on the new 41. It doesn't look different but it is

Poxyshamrock

https://x.com/IrishRail/status/1758412508207935877?s=20

first new carriages entered service this morning.

goingnowhere

1 carriage on trial operations, depending on how you read the schedule

Should have entered servce in Q2 2019, multiple revisions became Q4 2023 and then today.

It captures everything wrong with how we treat public transport investment, lots of talk, little actual action and that action comes too late.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774479#Comment_121774479

I think that your first line is a bit off.

I believe that you’ll start seeing them entering service steadily from now on.

Your last line is bang on. The NTA prevaricated for so long about ordering them - they should have been ordered ages before they were and we ought now to be ordering the next tranche of rolling stock for Intercity/regional rail.

goingnowhere

CRR require a trial period of operations before issuing the final acceptance

There are 4 configurations to be certified as there are 4, 5 and two 6 car configs

Also need acceptance to be obtained from the DFI in NI

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774651#Comment_121774651

There won’t be any 5 car sets going forward?

Also, aren’t the six-car premier sets being reformed with the original cars that were removed being re-inserted? Surely that’s a straightforward exercise?

I would have thought you’re talking about two “new” configurations as such, 4-car and 6-car sets with the new coaches inserted.

goingnowhere

No sets are being reformed to factory, the bulk of units will have a new B2 car inserted. The remaining 3 car sets remain with the stock B car.

There are 2 6 car configs, actually 3

5 coach First +1 new car = 6

5 coach First +1 new car + NIR package = 6

4 coach +2 new cars = 6

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774959#Comment_121774959

To be clear though, the five coach sets with 1st are not getting any of the “new“ cars though - they’re just getting their original ones back that were removed at the time of the downturn when the sets were last reformed.

bikeman1

I actually can't believe there is one in traffic today. Officially the slowest piece of rolling stock to enter traffic ever in Ireland.

They really were a bad idea. My understanding also is that from an accounting point of view, they have to be depreciated to the same stage as the last sets to traffic, as without the end cars, they are useless. So they are already deemed over 10 years old at day 1.

If they knew then what they know now, they should have just ordered new trains altogether. We are now using technology from 17 years ago as our newest IC stock. As LX says, the next orders should be going in for the future diesel ICR fleet, given the length of time to bring into traffic.

Finally, can someone let us know what the final ICR fleet will look like and where the new 41 cars will slot into?

goingnowhere

21 3 car 

20 4 car 

22 6 car of which 10 have first class

This could change, but the 10 first class moving back to 6 coaches is absolutely certain

trellheim

One wonders if they will deploy these on the busiest services , the afternoon Kilkenny-Dublin I'm looking at you, at weekdays resembles a calcutta express due IE only running a 3 car on one of the busiest college routes and then blaming it on lazy LJ platforming

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121775402#Comment_121775402

i doubt it to be honest, but like always time will tell.

i've learned to always expect the worst but be surprised when there is some improvement.

goingnowhere

Short platforms will now be the big problem, fairly sure Rathmore platform 2 is limited to a 3 coach ICR

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776538#Comment_121776538

Given the Tralee line has been operated by a pair of 4-car ICR sets for some time, crossing multiple times a day at Rathmore, I don’t think that’s the case.

goingnowhere

Its short

4 car is 93m long, Rathmore P2 is 89m declared usable length, 96.5m total so doesn't meet the standards.

It really needs to be 145m usable so 2 6 cars can pass. Banteer would also need some work

There are multiple tight points on the network, Castlerea, Ballyhaunis are another 2 and of course Kilkenny the biggest pain of them all

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776754#Comment_121776754

I know it’s short, but the 4-car ICRs fit as they pass one another day all day long.

You’re not going to have 2 x 6-car passing one another on Kerry anytime soon. The direct will revert to 6-car, but the 4-car shuttles carry the numbers safely enough.

The 6-car sets have far more pressing needs elsewhere on the network.

Jamie2k9

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774256#Comment_121774256

Good to see them in service. Look very very bright compared to the old coaches which isn't a good thing.

Suprised to see they have gone for the old table color that was on the frist few sets. Window's don't look tinted though I have noticed most door window's are no longer replaced with the old spec either.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121775294#Comment_121775294

They were 234 cars before this order, correct?

So 234 + 41 = 275 now?

21*3 = 63

20*4 = 80

22*6 = 132

63 + 80 + 132 = 275.

Thank you.

So there is no increase in the number of sets, which is still 63?

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121776754#Comment_121776754

Every platform, even on the quietest branch, should be able to take a 4-car train.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121774589#Comment_121774589

Yes.

Let's suppose we want to double traffic on regional rail.

By this I mean the following lines: Sligo, Mayo, Galway, WRC, Waterford, Wexford, Kerry etc.

Let's say we want this to happen by 2030.

As far as I can see, it's not possible.

We have 275 ICR cars, plus the existing two small fleets of DMUs.

As the DART expands out to Maynooth, Drogheda, Celbridge etc., are there enough 29000 to be released to allow regional rail to double?

There are 116 29 sets of 29000. How soon can any of them be sent outside Dublin/Kildare/Louth?

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785452#Comment_121785452

that's correct.

63 sets, no increase in sets.

once electrification of the kildare line takes place then that will release a lot of sets to the routes they should be operating so there should be enough to go round on the long distance routes then hopefully.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785895#Comment_121785895

electrification is at least 5 years away. Will the arrival of the hybrid DART sets free up anything from the Northern line or is that all 29k?

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121785452#Comment_121785452

There's no increase in sets, but because many services are currently run by coupling two sets together (e.g, two 3-car sets), it'll now be possible to run those services with a single 6-car set and free up the 3-car for another service.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121787159#Comment_121787159

Ok, thanks.

I suppose in some sense you could describe that as more sets.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121787102#Comment_121787102

generally the connolly suburban is 29 operated but ICRS do make appearences on those services, some of them are maintained at droghida.

most if not all 29 sets should be displaced eventually thanks be to jesus, well hopefully anyway.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121789682#Comment_121789682

06:45 Drogheda to Pearse is always an ICR from my experience. 7-piece I think.