41 new ICR centre cars

Jamie2k9

Reading in papers this morning the order will be officially made next month. Its only taken around 3 years and another 2 before they enter service.

dowlingm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Reading in papers this morning the order will be officially made next month. Its only taken around 3 years and another 2 before they enter service.

No rush...
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/people-were-gone-demented-i-ll-never-travel-on-irish-rail-again-1.3994455%3fmode=amp

bikeman1

God, the Irish Times has really lowered itself.

"Many passengers are visibly exhausted following their journeys"

I would expect that type of journalism from some of the tabloids. That 09:45 ex Westport is a notorious over crowded train, especially in the summer, as it provides a nice departure time to head up to Dublin. IÉ are totally stretched in terms of capacity.

It is a pity there wasn't a rake of carriages that they kept or small fleet of DMU's to free up ICRs on local duties - oh wait there was but IÉ can't look after their assests!

Jamie2k9

Entry into service now delayed again until 2022. Cabinet have not received or approved memo.

Jem72

This is getting to the point of absurdity. Until they get the order sent, every Irish Rail board member, every NTA board member and every cabinet minister should be forced to spend 10 hours a week on the Dublin commuter network.

They'd get the finger out fairly rapidly then.

L1011

Cabinet approved today. Only three years later. We'd probably have them by now if it had been done quicker - they still won't be quick to build and ship from Korea but they're not going to have the same commissioning delays as a completely new class.

Phil.x

L1011 wrote: »

Cabinet approved today. Only three years later. We'd probably have them by now if it had been done quicker - they still won't be quick to build and ship from Korea but they're not going to have the same commissioning delays as a completely new class.

How much is it going to cost.
Why didn't the get 50 or 60

CatInABox

Good to see any progress on this, if a "little" bit late.

end of the road

Phil.x wrote: »

How much is it going to cost.
Why didn't the get 50 or 60

from what i understand this is just an exercising of an option to buy centre cars which was part of the original contract for the original orders, that option only allows for 41 cars.
i presume if they wanted more they would have to put it out to tender, and to be honest even if they could have ordered 50 or 60 they wouldn't do very much for dublin suburban where the major issues are, as these are long distance trains, some of which are being used currently on suburban services but are struggling heavily with doing so.

Phil.x

end of the road wrote: »

from what i understand this is just an exercising of an option to buy centre cars which was part of the original contract for the original orders, that option only allows for 41 cars.
i presume if they wanted more they would have to put it out to tender, and to be honest even if they could have ordered 50 or 60 they wouldn't do very much for dublin suburban where the major issues are, as these are long distance trains, some of which are being used currently on suburban services but are struggling heavily with doing so.

Im on one of these intercity type trains now going to clonsilla from docklands, so with this order is this the end on electrification of the maynooth/m3 line.

Jamie2k9

I note the cost has jumped from 100 to 150 million.

L1011

Phil.x wrote: »

Im on one of these intercity type trains now going to clonsilla from docklands, so with this order is this the end on electrification of the maynooth/m3 line.

Absolutely not.

Jem72

It's about time.

Buying centre cars only is a bit short-sighted but given how long this was left there is no other option. By the time these go into service, the youngest of the driving cars will be over 10 years old and the oldest will be heading for 15 years. Given Irish Rail's recent record, I'd be surprised to see them go much beyond 20 - 25 years of age so you're potentially looking at a maximum of 15 years of life on the new units.

Now they need to get the finger out with a proper plan for new suburban units and forget about this messing about with hybrids and battery trains. By the time they've let that drift for another few years, they'll have spent the price of the electrification project on delays and pointless features on trains. And then use the trains for the purpose for which they are designed. So get rid of ICRs on runs to Dunboyne and boneshaker 29Ks on Longford commuter and Rosslare.

end of the road

Phil.x wrote: »

Im on one of these intercity type trains now going to clonsilla from docklands, so with this order is this the end on electrification of the maynooth/m3 line.

i certainly wouldn't put anything passed the politicians but it's doubtful this order would kill off any electrification scheme as they won't make any meaningful dent in the problem. it's when such stock gets freed from dublin suburban that it will actually make the difference as it should sort out the over-crowding issue on long distance services.
there are plans to make big orders of suburban stock as well and that should help deal with the problem on the dublin suburban. part of that plan is for bi-modal trains, these are trains which can operate off both over-head wires and have diesel engines. it is these which might be used to get out of maynooth electrification but hopefully not as the current suburban diesel stock need refurbishment and there certainly is unlikely to be enough of the bi-modal trains to replace them and increase the frequency as i believe is planned to happen.

Phil.x

L1011 wrote: »

Absolutely not.

When do you think this will be up and running.

L1011

Phil.x wrote: »

When do you think this will be up and running.

DART: four to five years
Longer 22000s - three years, but we don't know where they'll use them yet.

Del.Monte

What part of the EU is South Korea in?

L1011

Del.Monte wrote: »

What part of the EU is South Korea in?

What?

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I note the cost has jumped from 100 to 150 million.

Note the €100M estimate was made 3 years ago, was based on an exact spec of the original order and excluded the project management costs (anyone know what PMCs are for a new stock).

It is likely these vehicles will have a new ZF transmission system and MTU hybrid engine, that was not an option considered in 2016.

L1011

GM228 wrote: »

It is likely these vehicles will have a new ZF transmission system and MTU hybrid engine, that was not an option considered in 2016.

Hadn't even thought of that but it'd actually be very awkward if they didn't - assuming the trials work out OK

Also the new interior fitout would be dearer than the original, that'll add some thousands to tens of thousands per car probably. Fire-proofing means it isn't just a few USB chargers and the price difference between cloth and leather sofas when it comes to a transport environment!

GM228

L1011 wrote: »

Hadn't even thought of that but it'd actually be very awkward if they didn't - assuming the trials work out OK

Also the new interior fitout would be dearer than the original, that'll add some thousands per car.

And not to mention the 1000s of modifications made over the years, all will up the price over the original price tag per car.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

Note the €100M estimate was made 3 years ago, was based on an exact spec of the original order and excluded the project management costs (anyone know what PMCs are for a new stock).

It is likely these vehicles will have a new ZF transmission system and MTU hybrid engine, that was not an option considered in 2016.

50% is still a massive rise and even with new engines. The 100m was an estimate but how they have manged to get this so badly wrong is yet more proof of the competency of the NTA and how they have managed this project. I accept there are project costs but an extra 1.2 million per center carriage is crazy money.

Very costly project!

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

50% is still a massive rise and even with new engines. The 100m was an estimate but how they have manged to get this so badly wrong is yet more proof of the competency of the NTA and how they have managed this project. I accept there are project costs but an extra 1.2 million per center carriage is crazy money.

Very costly project!

The estimate was based on figures provided by Rotem (not the NTA) three years ago, build prices have increased significantly over the last number of years I believe.

Hybrid or otherwise new engines will have to be Euro Stage V compliant, current ones are Euro Stage IIIB, as I understand it Stage V are a much dearer engine. The ZF EcoWorld transmission is also dearer than the Voith T312 transmission, there are plenty of other factors which will drive up the cost, remember the €100M estimate is several years old.

Del.Monte

L1011 wrote: »

What?

Sorry, just a throwaway comment really, but I still can't get my head round why EU funding is spent on purchasing equipment from the far east instead of Europe. I don't know where the finance is coming from for this purchase but previous orders were EU funded.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

The estimate was based on figures provided by Rotem (not the NTA) three years ago, build prices have increased significantly over the last number of years I believe.

Hybrid or otherwise new engines will have to be Euro Stage V compliant, current ones are Euro Stage IIIB, as I understand it Stage V are a much dearer engine. The ZF EcoWorld transmission is also dearer than the Voith T312 transmission, there are plenty of other factors which will drive up the cost, remember the €100M estimate is several years old.

NTA sitting on this project for 3 years has now cost a significant amount extra. I suspect the majority of cost is because of them not altered engine spec. Of course they won't be accountable for this.

Phil.x

Was it the rte program that got the government to sign off on these trains?

Infini

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

50% is still a massive rise and even with new engines. The 100m was an estimate but how they have manged to get this so badly wrong is yet more proof of the competency of the NTA and how they have managed this project. I accept there are project costs but an extra 1.2 million per center carriage is crazy money.

Very costly project!

Honestly the reason rail transport is in such a state to begin with is because the power's that be have treated the thing as a money making semi state instead of a core infrastructure for the transport of people. Let's be honest here these costs have to be paid because they took too long and there heavy demand which needs to be catered for.

End of the day if it has to be paid, it has to be paid.

tabbey

Del.Monte wrote: »

What part of the EU is South Korea in?

South Korea has a finger in every pie, not just the EU, but USA, and most countries of the far east. It has outplayed Singapore at being all things to all countries.
That is how they manage to penetrate every market.

So far the 2200s have been more reliable than products from Alstom and Metro-Vickers, so operators turn a blind eye to European solidarity.

L1011

Del.Monte wrote: »

Sorry, just a throwaway comment really, but I still can't get my head round why EU funding is spent on purchasing equipment from the far east instead of Europe. I don't know where the finance is coming from for this purchase but previous orders were EU funded.

There's no EU funding for this order; and the % on the last purchase was miniscule (2% or so) from memory.

I don't know who the underbidders were in 2004 but the winning - Japanese - bidder was deemed the most advantageous. That they subcontracted to Korea is irrelevant.

devnull

Few more details here
https://twitter.com/RailUsersIe/status/1189900492719165440