41 new ICR centre cars

L1011

It's not specifically a standing area, it's also wheelchair (and bikes by the looks of things)

Jamie2k9

IE 222 wrote: »

I think it's a big mistake doing away with the 5 car formations. A lot of them 3&4 cars will likely have to work in pairs, drastically reducing the number of available sets. 5 cars are perfect for the likes of Waterford, Sligo, Westport and even PPT with the extra standing room.

Will they be able to turn some of the new cars so they could have one large standing area in the centre instead of 2 separate areas.

60 options are good, be interesting to see if they'll pursue this. Maybe creating options for a future Enterprise replacement/expansion. I think they could of negotiated for 45 cars, extra 4 driving cars, with the extra €50 million especially as they've the 60 options which includes driving cars.

There will be 22x6 car units that's 7 more than they had before. The problem with 5 car's would reduce flexibility of the fleet. The extra 6 car will reduce doubling up of units. Using Fri afternoon as an example instead of using 8 3 car sets to Galway/Waterford they can use 4 6 car sets plus increase capacity by circa 40 seats plus the existing 4x5 car services get circa 70 extra seats.

IE 222

In terms of flexibility 5 car sets may limit things somewhat but they also need to think of capacity. There is massive difference between 4 and 6 car sets. Demand will keep growing and a lot of the rostered 4 car services will need boosting.

Some of the Waterford, Cork and Limerick pairings will remain and still be required as the sets are split on arrival to run other or add extra return services from the said locations. I think we'll also see a growth in the demand for 7 car formations on certain services by the time these arrive also.

Ireland trains

Just out of curiosity,
how much 7 car services is there on a typical weekday
and out of that number, how much of them are there due to capacity required, rather than just splitting sets.
Cheers

IE 222

Ireland trains wrote: »

Just out of curiosity,
how much 7 car services is there on a typical weekday
and out of that number, how much of them are there due to capacity required, rather than just splitting sets.
Cheers

Not sure, I think I heard the number 5 been put about. Sounds about right. I think Sligo has 1 and 2 or 3 peak Drogheda/Dundalk services are formed with 7 car. I think one goes to Cork to split for the morning non stop ex Cork service, not sure if its technically used for capacity out of Dublin.

man98

IE 222 wrote: »

Not sure, I think I heard the number 5 been put about. Sounds about right. I think Sligo has 1 and 2 or 3 peak Drogheda/Dundalk services are formed with 7 car. I think one goes to Cork to split for the morning non stop ex Cork service, not sure if its technically used for capacity out of Dublin.

The 7 car is the 21.00 service, that's not a capacity reason.
Believe the 17.30 Heuston - Galway service is also 7 car.

Jamie2k9

7 Car services I think:
12.45 Westport (splits for return)
13.25 Galway (splits for return)
14.45 Westport FO (splits for return)
15.05 Sligo FO
17.10 Sligo
18.05 Portlaoise
18.15 Westport FO (splits for return in Athlone over weekend)
19.35 Galway
21.00 Cork

Then there is possibly 2 at Connolly doing Maynooth/N Commuter.

IE 222

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

7 Car services I think:
12.45 Westport (splits for return)
13.25 Galway (splits for return)
14.45 Westport FO (splits for return)
15.05 Sligo FO
17.10 Sligo
18.05 Portlaoise
18.15 Westport FO (splits for return in Athlone over weekend)
19.35 Galway
21.00 Cork

Then there is possibly 2 at Connolly doing Maynooth/N Commuter.

Going off that list it seems only 2 maybe 3 do a return service as a 7car. I think there is 3 doing Connolly peak services.

theguzman

Iarnrod Eireann have quiet alot of GM 201 Locomotives mothballed in Inchicore, I understand some of them were forward only and not bi-directional. Could these not get a refurbish and buy in say 80 new carriages and roll out some new trains again. Put a 201 at either end to solve the push pull issue or use turntables.

IE 222

theguzman wrote: »

Iarnrod Eireann have quiet alot of GM 201 Locomotives mothballed in Inchicore, I understand some of them were forward only and not bi-directional. Could these not get a refurbish and buy in say 80 new carriages and roll out some new trains again. Put a 201 at either end to solve the push pull issue or use turntables.

They were bi-directional running. They've a cab at each end. They weren't push pulled equipped. There is 10 stored 201s. Some have been mothballed beyond use to keep the current in service ones running. At most they could probably return 4 or 5 of them to service, at a very high cost. Even if coaching stock could be found there is enough locos in service to cover it. The full fleet of 071s is still operating.

I fail to see what the benefit is in ordering a whole new fleets of coaches instead of ordering extra rolling stock of the current operational fleet. If cheap second hand coaches became available for a short term lease it would be worth looking into but not purchasing a brand new fleet.

L1011

theguzman wrote: »

Iarnrod Eireann have quiet alot of GM 201 Locomotives mothballed in Inchicore, I understand some of them were forward only and not bi-directional. Could these not get a refurbish and buy in say 80 new carriages and roll out some new trains again. Put a 201 at either end to solve the push pull issue or use turntables.

Cost and lead time would be nearly identical if not more

seagoebox

The very premature scrapping of the 100+ strong fleet of Mark 3's was an absolute disgrace. There were many many years of useful life left in them, but no, IE as usual wasted the capital cost in the rush to take them out of service.
The Mark 3 is still running in the UK providing excellent service, as usual for Irish Rail anything that works well anywhere else has to be re-invented and stuff the cost.
If only half of the Mark 3's had been kept it would help plug the present rolling stock deficiency, only the number of long-term stored 201's in Inchicore are not able to haul them, yet another example of corporate wastage by IE.

MrAbyss

seagoebox wrote: »

The very premature scrapping of the 100+ strong fleet of Mark 3's was an absolute disgrace.

They are gone forever and not coming back. Move on.

seagoebox

try and deny free speech, surely you can be more constructive!

end of the road

MrAbyss wrote: »

They are gone forever and not coming back. Move on.

nope not move on as it was a disgraceful waste of tax payers money which should never be forgotten, and which has left the railway hugely under capacity.

Okon

MrAbyss wrote: »

They are gone forever and not coming back.

... doesn't make it any less of a wasteful and myopic decision.

dowlingm

There was for and against it.

IE wanted to go push pull and not have runaround or turntable to maintain but the Mark 3 fleet was either non push pull aircon or non aircon pushpull. I think if memory serves they also did not have toilet tanks. All fixable but for €€€.

There was reportedly a pushback by locals when Mark 3s were proposed for Sligo also.

Add to that the 201s were limited on parts of the network, the DMUs have performance advantages as well as being streets ahead emissions wise with the modern engines and the selective shutoff, and the Mark 3s did not meet modern accessibility standards, weren’t plumbed for reservation/wifi etc.

Remember too that while the Mark 3 coaches were scrapped, several EGVs ended up on Enterprise sets.

DoctorPan

Speaking to Irish Rail fitters at the time, the Mk3s were knackered and a trouble to keep going with rust corrosion a major problem.

Looking at the Uk, at the cost and time overruns spent on the Mk3 overhauls shows that IE were at the time, right in the decision to go to the DMU side of things.

goingnowhere

There is a valid question as to why 4-6 sets were not kept, there were on paper 20 odd sets. Pick the best, refurb. Good enough to roll out for GAA specials but the accessibility works costs are shocking if you wanted to operate them in public scheduled use. Doors need replacing, toilets need to be accessible, PIS, CCTV, new AC gear

All Mk3's were hand built so the UK has learned the hard way modern precise engineering doesn't work well.

The numbers were crunched and 51 ICR coaches were provided to replace the MK3 PP fleet, it was cheaper on life cycle cost to buy 51 than refurb the 25 we had.

Had that not occurred we would be stuck with clapped out Mk3 coaches, limited to 70mph and accessibility a mess

IE 222

goingnowhere wrote: »

There is a valid question as to why 4-6 sets were not kept, there were on paper 20 odd sets. Pick the best, refurb. Good enough to roll out for GAA specials but the accessibility works costs are shocking if you wanted to operate them in public scheduled use. Doors need replacing, toilets need to be accessible, PIS, CCTV, new AC gear

All Mk3's were hand built so the UK has learned the hard way modern precise engineering doesn't work well.

The numbers were crunched and 51 ICR coaches were provided to replace the MK3 PP fleet, it was cheaper on life cycle cost to buy 51 than refurb the 25 we had.

Had that not occurred we would be stuck with clapped out Mk3 coaches, limited to 70mph and accessibility a mess

Totally agree with this. The push/pull fleet should of been kept for specials ect.

The rest were surplus to requirements as to was the 2700s and both were out of service for the guts of 10 years before any talk of extra rolling stock was put out there. It took IE nearly 4 years to remove MK3s from service once the ICR started to arrive and another 3 years to scrap them so I disagree with any suggestion that they rushed to get rid of them.

We may of gotten away without having the ICR fleet through the recession years but we would be in an awful state now if hadn't ordered them when we did.

The accessible access was a key factor in this also as all public transport was going this way.

Geuze

41 coaches for 150m seems very dear, no?

I thought EMU vehicles were about 1.5 each, maybe 2m tops?

L1011

Geuze wrote: »

41 coaches for 150m seems very dear, no?

I thought EMU vehicles were about 1.5 each, maybe 2m tops?

These are diesel/electric hybrid vehicles to a completely custom spec.

loyatemu

L1011 wrote: »

These are diesel/electric hybrid vehicles to a completely custom spec.

aren't they going to be dropped into regular diesel sets though - what benefit is the hybrid providing in this case?

end of the road

loyatemu wrote: »

aren't they going to be dropped into regular diesel sets though - what benefit is the hybrid providing in this case?

perhapse the long term plan is to refurbish the regular diesel sets with the same modules.

L1011

loyatemu wrote: »

aren't they going to be dropped into regular diesel sets though - what benefit is the hybrid providing in this case?

The first hybrid drive packs for the existing fleet have been ordered, but there would still be benefit for the individual unit anyway

Geuze

L1011 wrote: »

These are diesel/electric hybrid vehicles to a completely custom spec.

Might somebody briefly explain what this means?

Typically DMUs have an engine under every unit, or some of the units in the train?

Like a 4car DMU might have 2 or 4 engines, underfloor?

Does each car in the ICRs have an underfloor engine?

goingnowhere

Each coach was an engine MTU 6H 1800

Current config
Engine + Voith hydraulic drive + retarder

Current test config
Engine + ZF gearbox

Future
Engine + ZF gearbox + generator/motor
+ battery pack


All the above fit in the same engine raft so its a unbolt, lift out, lift in, bolt in pretty much bar some software change. The hybrid drive requires a battery, it charges under braking and can be used to move the train without the engine running or can be used with the engine to give a boost under acceleration.

L1011

Geuze wrote: »

Might somebody briefly explain what this means?

Typically DMUs have an engine under every unit, or some of the units in the train?

Like a 4car DMU might have 2 or 4 engines, underfloor?

Does each car in the ICRs have an underfloor engine?

Answer above gives more detail than I could have on the ICR config

The days of unpowered trailers in multiple units are going out (you can still get them if you wanted) as it increases the risk of an entire train failing if there's engine issues. I believe all Irish Rail DMUs are engine-per-car, even the 25 year old 2600s.

You can often tell when an engine has packed in on a 29000 because you're in an incredibly quiet, non-vibrating car in the middle of a set!

highdef

goingnowhere wrote: »

Had that not occurred we would be stuck with clapped out Mk3 coaches, limited to 70mph and accessibility a mess

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought it was just the control cars that were limited to 70mph (I remember something about them being from DART units or something like that). A bogie change for the control cars could hardly be that big a job??? I know it's not happening anyway so this is all just hypothetical ramblings.

thewexman93

How on Earth does it cost over 3.5million to purchase a railway carriage?

At that price we should be making them ourselves, and create a few jobs in the process