Russian and alt-right Interference in democracies.

johnp001

Robert Parry article yesterday which describes a logical inconsistency of the "Russian interference" narrative:

Consortium News wrote:

...
This CIA-initiated narrative that Putin somehow rigged the election for Trump has become an accepted wisdom not only in Official Washington but among much of the Democratic Party and within the progressive movement. Little interest is shown toward the lack of evidence provided by the U.S. intelligence community and the dubious reasoning involved, since it would have been a huge gamble for Putin to have interfered in the U.S. election and then faced the likely outcome of an angry President Hillary Clinton seeking revenge once she took office.

There’s also a logical inconsistency in portraying Trump as a Manchurian candidate, since the idea of putting such a secret agent in the White House would involve the person talking tough against Russia during the campaign – to garner political support – rather than declaring publicly a desire for better relations with Russia, a position that was widely viewed as harmful to Trump’s chances.

Trump never hid his interest in avoiding a costly New Cold War with Russia and took a rhetorical beating for it, both during the Republican primaries and during the general election. That would not have been the approach of a true Manchurian candidate.
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demfad

johnp001 wrote: »

Robert Parry article yesterday which describes a logical inconsistency of the "Russian interference" narrative:

There’s also a logical inconsistency in portraying Trump as a Manchurian candidate, since the idea of putting such a secret agent in the White House would involve the person talking tough against Russia during the campaign – to garner political support – rather than declaring publicly a desire for better relations with Russia, a position that was widely viewed as harmful to Trump’s chances.

Trump never hid his interest in avoiding a costly New Cold War with Russia and took a rhetorical beating for it, both during the Republican primaries and during the general election. That would not have been the approach of a true Manchurian candidate.

Firstly: The American Republican movement behind Trump: The tea party led by the the Council for National Policy are not anti-Russian. They are pro-Russian. They are anti-abortion, creationist, right wing christian to the point of religious Statism. Russia is seen as the leading white christian country with 'traditional' values. The strenght of fundamental Christian capitalism should not be discounted and some actors especially Russia have been carefully nudging this strand of Republicanism apart from the rest of US politics.
Secondly: It is clear that Russia was suprised he went all the way. The goal may have been for him to continue the work in sowing discord and confusion in American society. He was also influencing the focus on Russia, loudly saying that he might not support Baltic Nato states while Russia was actively invading East Ukraine. He also successfully removed a clause at the Republican primaries about specific sanctions against Russia.

All his actions have been perfectly aligned with a Manchurian. The only people now claiming doubt about Russian interference are the Russian themselves. Wikileaks have flip flopped.

Interestingly wikileaks have called for the release of Trumps tax. Either Russia is pretending that they are not in with Trump or they are about to eject him.

In ther news. FSA chief advisor Flynn under investigation for his calls to Russian ambassador. http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/23/politics/flynn-russia-calls-investigation/index.html

Including the FBI FISA investigation into Trumps campaign re ties to Russia; Investigation into NY FBI; The Senate intelligence comittee investigation into Trump ties that makes 3-4 investigations now; 3 atleast concerning espionage relating to Trump/Russia. Tick Tock

KingBrian2

Given that the United States election was biased against Donald J Trump it seems according to some merely reporting from Russian news networks which was neutral on Trump becoming president is enough to warrant expelling foreign correspondence. The American viewer would not like if the BBC, Al Jazeera or Euronews correspondences were kicked out of America for covering American elections. Although for the likes of CNN, Fox News and Washington Post they might make an exception and have them thrown out. Once again the Russian allegations is a distraction from the main event. Crooked media lieing to the American public & the world. They got it badly wrong on Britain leaving the EU and Trump getting elected. Holding up the Russian potential hacks is ignoring the mess they caused.

demfad

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Given that the United States election was biased against Donald J Trump...

Can you substantiate this please? It appears that MSM spent 5 times more investigating the hacked wikileaks daily dropped emails than they did into Trumps very dodgy financial ties and history.
Also the New York Times reported here that they were aware BEFORE the election that there was a FISA warrant (espionage) granted to the FBI for investigating Trump and his campaigners. They admit that they should have published. One sniff of that ivestigation and he was buried. Trump got an incredible easy time from the American media. They did not do their job.

it seems according to some merely reporting from Russian news networks which was neutral on Trump becoming president is enough to warrant expelling foreign correspondence.

Whatever you say.

Katiefe

Supposedly now the EU is warning that Russia has plans to target elections there through spreading fake news

demfad

Katiefe wrote: »

Supposedly now the EU is warning that Russia has plans to target elections there through spreading fake news

They already are In France and Germany with alt-right sites emerging to amplify fake news and Russian Trolls on the scene to argue for their chose candidate and help amplify and circulate the news.
In East Europe the right lean has been helped greatly by these Russian tactics.

Note: Breitbart news and Cambridge analytica will be on the scene here, being de facto directed from the White House by Steve Bannon.

Elmer Blooker

demfad wrote: »

They already are In France and Germany with alt-right sites emerging to amplify fake news and Russian Trolls on the scene to argue for their chose candidate and help amplify and circulate the news.
In East Europe the right lean has been helped greatly by these Russian tactics.

What a load of nonsense! The Russians are not responsible for Poland's descent into dictatorship. Neither are they responsible for the marches in the Baltic Republics where Waffen SS collaborators who rounded up the Jews for the Germans are commemorated as heroes - this of course covered up by the media.
How about Croatia where the pro-Nazi Ustase who murdered hundreds of thousands of Jews and Serbs are now National heroes?
You're just making stuff up as far as I'm concerned, the rise of extreme nationalism in eastern Europe is not because of Russian "tactics".
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/17/poland-rightwing-government-eu-russia-democracy-under-threat

KingBrian2

demfad wrote: »

Can you substantiate this please? It appears that MSM spent 5 times more investigating the hacked wikileaks daily dropped emails than they did into Trumps very dodgy financial ties and history.
Also the New York Times reported here that they were aware BEFORE the election that there was a FISA warrant (espionage) granted to the FBI for investigating Trump and his campaigners. They admit that they should have published. One sniff of that ivestigation and he was buried. Trump got an incredible easy time from the American media. They did not do their job.



Whatever you say.

Donald Trump does not need to release his tax returns as it was the Clinton administration that legalized the very methods Trump used in est his commercial empire. Hillary wanted a free pass for her husbands legalizing of using offshore tax havens like the Canary Islands to hide the wealth of America's billionaires. Going into too much detail of Trump dealings would show Clinton's donors were also benefiting and Trump was very honest that he took advantage of the tax code the same as George Soros, Warren Buffet, Goldman Sachs, Appple & Facebook. All having an army of lawyers that let them pay as little tax as possible.

323

Katiefe wrote: »

Supposedly now the EU is warning that Russia has plans to target elections there through spreading fake news

Aye, quite a bit of that in the media now. Absolute rubbish. The EU is coming apart at the seams, largly its own doing due to its ignorance of its citizenry and lack of democracy to name just a few.

They know they wont be able to make the Germans, French or Dutch vote again, or ignore the results of democratic elections because they don't like the outcome as in Portugal. So instead there blaming everyone but themselves.

Believed in the EEC/EU once but think the quote "If your life isn't going as planned, take a look at yourself before blaming everyone around you" sums up what the EU has become.

Elmer Blooker

Katiefe wrote: »

Supposedly now the EU is warning that Russia has plans to target elections there through spreading fake news

It's called getting your retaliation in first!
With the possibility of Le Pen getting elected in France and Merkel getting the boot in Germany (in other words not the desired outcome like Trump instead of Clinton) then Russian "interference" is a convenient smokescreen to cover up the cracks in the EU which is coming apart at the seams as 323 said in previous post.

Gatling

Katiefe wrote: »

Supposedly now the EU is warning that Russia has plans to target elections there through spreading fake news

Why do you think they are directly supporting far right groups across Europe and the Baltics ,
Just ask why a russian front bank gave le pen millions in loans then folded when it came under investigation for dodgy dealings ,
Putin needs a broken up Europe to keep him in a job ,
His biggest threat is European freedoms and European living standards and salary's

Elmer Blooker

Gatling wrote: »

Just ask why a russian front bank gave le pen millions in loans then folded when it came under investigation for dodgy dealings ,

"dodgy dealings" ... That's quite a serious allegation don't you think?, please provide a link or evidence that this bank folded due to dodgy dealings.

Gatling

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

"dodgy dealings" ... That's quite a serious allegation don't you think?,

No that's fact ,
First Czech-Russian Bank considered to be a Kremlin front is currently under several investigations

Elmer Blooker

Gatling wrote: »

No that's fact ,
First Czech-Russian Bank considered to be a Kremlin front is currently under several investigations

1. Please explain how a bank can be a Kremlin front.
2. Please go into more detail about these "investigations".

The FCRB had insolvency problems like so many other European banks.

demfad

Gatling wrote: »

Why do you think they are directly supporting far right groups across Europe and the Baltics ,
Just ask why a russian front bank gave le pen millions in loans then folded when it came under investigation for dodgy dealings ,
Putin needs a broken up Europe to keep him in a job ,
His biggest threat is European freedoms and European living standards and salary's

Breaking up the EU also gives Putin a chance to destabilise Nato. This is also a twin objective of Trump Bannon.
As well as funding far right groups across Europe with a special bonus when they endorsed the annexation of Crimea (eg 9 million loan to Front Nationale) Putin has formed alliances with some of these groups including the far right Austrian party last week.
With Russian interference guaranteed and the alt right machine of Breitbart and Cambridge Analytica rolling in, we can see Russian/Alt-right interference in many upcoming elections unless this is addressed.

*Dont let the name Cambridge Analytica roll past you. They had detailed intel on all 220million american Adults pre election, predicting what message they needed to hear whether to vote Trump or keep Clinton supporters inside. They can tailor this intel re facebook ads, and also have an app that tells canvassers exactly who was living in the next house and what message they should here: Check this out https://antidotezine.com/2017/01/22/trump-knows-you/

KingBrian2

demfad wrote: »

Breaking up the EU also gives Putin a chance to destabilise Nato. This is also a twin objective of Trump Bannon.
As well as funding far right groups across Europe with a special bonus when they endorsed the annexation of Crimea (eg 9 million loan to Front Nationale) Putin has formed alliances with some of these groups including the far right Austrian party last week.
With Russian interference guaranteed and the alt right machine of Breitbart and Cambridge Analytica rolling in, we can see Russian/Alt-right interference in many upcoming elections unless this is addressed.

*Dont let the name Cambridge Analytica roll past you. They had detailed intel on all 220million american Adults pre election, predicting what message they needed to hear whether to vote Trump or keep Clinton supporters inside. They can tailor this intel re facebook ads, and also have an app that tells canvassers exactly who was living in the next house and what message they should here: Check this out https://antidotezine.com/2017/01/22/trump-knows-you/

What you say makes no sense. Why would Trump be supporting extreme right wing groups in Europe with the backing of the Russian gvt? His main concern is the rise of Islamic terrorism which he shares with Putin.

NATO is not the organisation it once was and many in Europe do not feel safe under its protection which Trump himself pointed out in his many speeches, it was NATO bases from which US forces attacked Libya and left Europe open to a wave of refugees.

KingBrian2

323 wrote: »

Aye, quite a bit of that in the media now. Absolute rubbish. The EU is coming apart at the seams, largly its own doing due to its ignorance of its citizenry and lack of democracy to name just a few.

They know they wont be able to make the Germans, French or Dutch vote again, or ignore the results of democratic elections because they don't like the outcome as in Portugal. So instead there blaming everyone but themselves.

Believed in the EEC/EU once but think the quote "If your life isn't going as planned, take a look at yourself before blaming everyone around you" sums up what the EU has become.

With the UK leaving that might change seeing as they were in the operating seat for the last half century and have always been trying to undermine European consensus & free market controls. A policy that continues to this day in spite of them leaving the bloc.

johnp001

Seymour Hersh on Russian interference in US election claims

The Intercept wrote:

SEYMOUR HERSH BLASTS MEDIA FOR UNCRITICALLY PROMOTING RUSSIAN HACKING STORY

PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING journalist Seymour Hersh said in an interview that he does not believe the U.S. intelligence community proved its case that President Vladimir Putin directed a hacking campaign aimed at securing the election of Donald Trump. He blasted news organizations for lazily broadcasting the assertions of U.S. intelligence officials as established facts.


The Intercept’s Jeremy Scahill speaks with Seymour Hersh at his home in Washington, D.C. two days after Donald Trump’s inauguration.

Hersh denounced news organizations as “crazy town” for their uncritical promotion of the pronouncements of the director of national intelligence and the CIA, given their track records of lying and misleading the public.

“The way they behaved on the Russia stuff was outrageous,” Hersh said when I sat down with him at his home in Washington, D.C., two days after Trump was inaugurated. “They were just so willing to believe stuff. And when the heads of intelligence give them that summary of the allegations, instead of attacking the CIA for doing that, which is what I would have done,” they reported it as fact. Hersh said most news organizations missed an important component of the story: “the extent to which the White House was going and permitting the agency to go public with the assessment.”

Hersh said many media outlets failed to provide context when reporting on the intelligence assessment made public in the waning days of the Obama administration that was purported to put to rest any doubt that Russian President Vladimir Putin ordered the hacking of the DNC and Clinton campaign manager John Podesta’s emails.

The declassified version of the report, which was released January 7 and dominated the news for days, charged that Putin “ordered an influence campaign in 2016 aimed at the U.S. presidential election” and “aspired to help President-elect Trump’s election chances when possible by discrediting Secretary Clinton and publicly contrasting her unfavorably to him.” According to the report, the NSA was said to have had a lower confidence level than James Clapper and the CIA about the conclusion that Russia intended to influence the election. Hersh characterized the report as full of assertions and thin on evidence.
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demfad

KingBrian2 wrote: »

What you say makes no sense. Why would Trump be supporting extreme right wing groups in Europe with the backing of the Russian gvt? His main concern is the rise of Islamic terrorism which he shares with Putin.

Steve Bannon has openly said he wants to use the Trump apparatus of big data psychological profiling 'Cambridge analytica', Breitbart news and the power of the Whitehouse to influence upcoming European elections. Marine LePen and the leader of the Austrain far right both visisted him in Trump tower recently. As Bannon writes Trumps speeches and executive orders you can take Bannon=Trump.

An objective of Putin is to destroy the EU as a means to weaken Nato. He has funded the same far right parties that Bannon has vowed to help.

demfad

3rd Russian Cyber operative arrested in Moscow as US agents:

http://www.rferl.org/a/russia-fsb-agent-arrested-u-s-election-hacking/28261397.html

red ears

demfad wrote: »

Steve Bannon has openly said he wants to use the Trump apparatus of big data psychological profiling 'Cambridge analytica', Breitbart news and the power of the Whitehouse to influence upcoming European elections. Marine LePen and the leader of the Austrain far right both visisted him in Trump tower recently. As Bannon writes Trumps speeches and executive orders you can take Bannon=Trump.

An objective of Putin is to destroy the EU as a means to weaken Nato. He has funded the same far right parties that Bannon has vowed to help.

By destroying the EU they will be helping save European countries from ruin. After the EU falls we will go back to controlling our own borders and deciding who can and can't come in. We should see a return to sensible immigration policies much like that of Australia. If the EU continues as is and we have another 10 or 20 years of mass immigration from Africa and the middle east then services in EU countries will be in a mess. The cost of welfare will skyrocket, there will be a lack of accommodation, school places, hospital beds etc etc.

demfad

red ears wrote: »

By destroying the EU they will be helping save European countries from ruin. After the EU falls we will go back to controlling our own borders and deciding who can and can't come in. We should see a return to sensible immigration policies much like that of Australia. If the EU continues as is and we have another 10 or 20 years of mass immigration from Africa and the middle east then services in EU countries will be in a mess. The cost of welfare will skyrocket, there will be a lack of accommodation, school places, hospital beds etc etc.

The recent mass refugee crises was due to a massive war in Syria and disturbances in North Africa. The refugee crises was the biggest (non World War) movement of people since the Irish famine.
If Ireland for example were to leave the EU, ALL of the things yoiu suggest would happen within 12 months. Stop being ridiculous.

red ears

demfad wrote: »

The recent mass refugee crises was due to a massive war in Syria and disturbances in North Africa. The refugee crises was the biggest (non World War) movement of people since the Irish famine.
If Ireland for example were to leave the EU, ALL of the things yoiu suggest would happen within 12 months. Stop being ridiculous.

How do you explain the boats full of sub Saharan Africans we see being rescued from the med. Or the people coming from Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. The system is being abused.

BTW it need not stop next year it just can't continue as it is for the next 20 or 30 years. Do you think people from these countries (including safe african countries) will just stop coming. The more of their people arrive and settle the more attractive it becomes for their country-folk to do the same. They will have ready made neighbourhoods to move into. Neighborhoods with old country culture but with western welfare and job opportunities.

demfad

red ears wrote: »

How do you explain the boats full of sub Saharan Africans we see being rescued from the med. Or the people coming from Bangladesh, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. The system is being abused.

BTW it need not stop next year it just can't continue as it is for the next 20 or 30 years. Do you think people from these countries (including safe african countries) will just stop coming. The more of their people arrive and settle the more attractive it becomes for their country-folk to do the same. They will have ready made neighbourhoods to move into. Neighborhoods with old country culture but with western welfare and job opportunities.

The crises coincided with the war in Syria and was not apparent before then. You have no substantiation for any of your claims: until you do we can safely assume they are just lazy prejudices

Elmer Blooker

demfad wrote: »

The recent mass refugee crises was due to a massive war in Syria and disturbances in North Africa.

"disturbances" .... Is that the current media buzzword for the wanton destruction of Libya by NATO? You forgot to mention Iraq and Afghanistan for contributing to the refugee crisis.

KingBrian2

demfad wrote: »

Steve Bannon has openly said he wants to use the Trump apparatus of big data psychological profiling 'Cambridge analytica', Breitbart news and the power of the Whitehouse to influence upcoming European elections. Marine LePen and the leader of the Austrain far right both visisted him in Trump tower recently. As Bannon writes Trumps speeches and executive orders you can take Bannon=Trump.

An objective of Putin is to destroy the EU as a means to weaken Nato. He has funded the same far right parties that Bannon has vowed to help.

Trump team can say what they like they don't influence events on the ground in Europe Le Pen is a consequence of social problem within French communities. The dislocation Muslims have with European gvt such as allowing refugees into Europe without vetting and Belgium, British & French Jihadists going off to fight in Syria where they have no right to be. This is the crisis in Europe and Trump & Putin are only taken notice of what is being reported.

demfad

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Trump team can say what they like they don't influence events on the ground in Europe Le Pen is a consequence of social problem within French communities. The dislocation Muslims have with European gvt such as allowing refugees into Europe without vetting and Belgium, British & French Jihadists going off to fight in Syria where they have no right to be. This is the crisis in Europe and Trump & Putin are only taken notice of what is being reported.

Trump team funding LePen with big data cambridge analytica, propaganda from Breitbart Paris and hundreds of other alt-right websites; Working in tandem with Russian hacking and dumps on disfavoured candidates, consuming media time, favouring Putin candidate, attack adds amplified by the army of Petrograd trolls. US and Russia can target attack adds at an amazingly granular level on social media and door to door with the big data tailored for election and personality prediction that Cambridge provides.
If you think that this will not and has not affected elections you are naive, dishonest, dumb or some combination.

demfad

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

"disturbances" .... Is that the current media buzzword for the wanton destruction of Libya by NATO? You forgot to mention Iraq and Afghanistan for contributing to the refugee crisis.

The point is that these are coming from wartorn countries ergo refugees.
The poster has no substantiation that this stream will last 30 years or that this would be more problematic to EU resources than the destruction of the EU.

KingBrian2

demfad wrote: »

Trump team funding LePen with big data cambridge analytica, propaganda from Breitbart Paris and hundreds of other alt-right websites; Working in tandem with Russian hacking and dumps on disfavoured candidates, consuming media time, favouring Putin candidate, attack adds amplified by the army of Petrograd trolls. US and Russia can target attack adds at an amazingly granular level on social media and door to door with the big data tailored for election and personality prediction that Cambridge provides.
If you think that this will not and has not affected elections you are naive, dishonest, dumb or some combination.

What you say can be done by both sides the Republican party in America have a far right wing fringe and collaborates with Neo-Nazis in Europe as do the Russian far right. White Supremacy and Eurosceptic organisations have been around for a very long time trying to weaken and wreck Europe from the inside. Putin & Trump might have vague sympathies for anti EU sentiment this does not descend to openly wanting to dismantle the EU. Much of the hostility to European integration is internal with Le Pen, Geert Wilders & Farage courting the non European actors. They are pushing Russia & the US into investing themselves in undermining the EU as their interest align with a continent composed of superpowers making decisions as was done in the past and ignoring terrible mistakes of the past.

red ears

demfad wrote: »

The crises coincided with the war in Syria and was not apparent before then. You have no substantiation for any of your claims: until you do we can safely assume they are just lazy prejudices

People are coming from countries with no wars, they are economic migrants. There is no reason to believe this will stop unless we actively change laws to stop it. Trump is doing that in America, May will be doing that in UK and hopefully Wilders and Le Pen start the ball rolling for the EU.