Russian and alt-right Interference in democracies.

demfad

johnp001 wrote: »

It depends on your definition of what constitutes "a weak Europe".
The EU has largely destabilised itself with uncontrolled immigration.
Putin has expressed strong reservations about this policy
'A society that can’t defend its children has no tomorrow': Putin condemns Europe’s handling of migrants and says the child rape in Austria shows 'a dilution of national values'
Vladimir Putin has spoken of disbelief in EU's handling of migrant crisis
He cited the case of a 10-year-old boy raped by an Iraqi migrant in Austria
Leader claimed that a society that can't defend its children has no future
He also added that it highlighted a 'dilution of national values in Europe'


Stable states in Europe are in Russia's interest whether they are part of a federated union like the EU or not. I don't think Russia is in a position economically or militarily to dominate Europe.

Putin's condemnation of Immigration is exactly intended to destabilise the EU. Highlighting the criminal action to one person and applying it to a whole class of people (muslim refugees and migrants) is shameful bogotry.
Perhaps Putin should address the amount of children, particularly females who are trafficked and repeatedly raped in his own country, something that he doesn't seem to be bothered to raise a finger to deter.

johnp001

demfad wrote: »

Putin's condemnation of Immigration is exactly intended to destabilise the EU. Highlighting the criminal action to one person and applying it to a whole class of people (muslim refugees and migrants) is shameful bogotry.
Perhaps Putin should address the amount of children, particularly females who are trafficked and repeatedly raped in his own country, something that he doesn't seem to be bothered to raise a finger to deter.

But this is not a case of applying the criminal action of a person onto a group it is the criticism of a nations handling of a criminal action.

I don't understand how Putin's condemnation of immigration would destabilise the EU. The mass immigration itself has certainly destabilised EU countries so surely encouragement of immigration would have a more destabilising effect?

Gatling

johnp001 wrote: »

But this is not a case of applying the criminal action of a person onto a group it is the criticism of a nations handling of a criminal action.

I don't understand how Putin's condemnation of immigration would destabilise the EU. The mass immigration itself has certainly destabilised EU countries so surely encouragement of immigration would have a more destabilising effect?

But surely the 18 million russians currently living and working across the EU counters putins agenda about uncontrolled migration destroying the EU ,

Harika

johnp001 wrote: »

But this is not a case of applying the criminal action of a person onto a group it is the criticism of a nations handling of a criminal action.

I don't understand how Putin's condemnation of immigration would destabilise the EU. The mass immigration itself has certainly destabilised EU countries so surely encouragement of immigration would have a more destabilising effect?

There are problems with mass immigration, no one doubts that, especially not on the left. Right Wingers use the notion that left wingers see no problem only to strengthen their point. If Europe would have pulled in one direction, the millions of people would have been able to be catered better than now, so the problems are a bit more focused as the refugees are not spread over all Europe. Here different political parties blocked a solution. This division is now being used to stop europe working better together. Right wing parties, as shown above, are supported to spread misinformation and rumours to gain influence within the different countries to lobby for Russia. It's amazing to read german forums where Russia is promoted as shining light of freedom and prosperity for people, if only the sanctions would be gone.
In short I don't think the mass immigration did any harm to Europe, it is the pumped up reaction to it, that causes the harm.

demfad

johnp001 wrote: »

But this is not a case of applying the criminal action of a person onto a group it is the criticism of a nations handling of a criminal action.

So the report in that paper said that an Austrian court did not convict the man because he did not realise the 10 year old boy was saying no to sexual intercourse? Is this Putin's version of the story or the newspapers either way can you provide substantiation that it is legal for an adult to have consensual sex with a 10 year old (rape) in Austria?

Harika

demfad wrote: »

So the report in that paper said that an Austrian court did not convict the man because he did not realise the 10 year old boy was saying no to sexual intercourse? Is this Putin's version of the story or the newspapers either way can you provide substantiation that it is legal for an adult to have consensual sex with a 10 year old (rape) in Austria?

There were formal errors with the process, but the rapist was never released and the court has to redo the process now, where no one believes the rapist will get out of jail. Just read the daily mail article, there was no discussion about the victim saying no or that the refugee had an emergency as he didn't have sex for four months. It is for the court to decide if it was rape or abuse, yeah like the germans austrians like it complicated. German Source again: http://derstandard.at/2000046210172/Bub-in-Hallenbad-vergewaltigt-Urteil-aufgehoben

demfad

The Czechs latest to be hacked in Russia's cyberwar in an attack similar to a recent one against Poland.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/31/czech-cyber-attack-russia-suspected-of-hacking-diplomats-emails

The Czech Republic has suffered a damaging security breach after hackers infiltrated the emails of dozens of its most senior diplomats in a massive cyber-attack thought to have been carried out by Russia.

Billy86

demfad wrote: »

The Czechs latest to be hacked in Russia's cyberwar in an attack similar to a recent one against Poland.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/31/czech-cyber-attack-russia-suspected-of-hacking-diplomats-emails

Let me guess, the hacked party/parties were centrist and/or leftist?

KingBrian2

Harika wrote: »

Russia has all incentive to destabilize the EU, that's why they sponsor the far right movement like LePen in France and FPÖ in Austria. Those are EU skeptic parties that would love to see the EU demolished, but what is in for Russia in it?
A weak Europe won't be able to stand up against Russia's military interventions in eastern Europe. The sanctions are working, but without this economic power behind them, they become toothless. When the EU is divided and in shambles, Putin can be the savior and bring back the lost sheep into the new/old soviet empire.

A weak Europe unless Europe is planning to turn into a military alliance anytime soon Europe will never pose a threat to Russia again. That's the whole idea of the EU. People particularly the pro Atlanticists believe the EU is a anti Russian enterprise. It is a democratic union of equal nations and many are former Warsaw pact countries. The rise of the far right into popular politics mirrors events taking place in the US and the breach of international treaties going on all around Europe. Russia was not the first autocratic nation posing a threat to Europe. Turkey has been sponsoring ISIS in Sryia & Israel remains an occupier power. Russia is far down the list of anti EU powers.

demfad

KingBrian2 wrote: »

A weak Europe unless Europe is planning to turn into a military alliance anytime soon Europe will never pose a threat to Russia again. That's the whole idea of the EU. People particularly the pro Atlanticists believe the EU is a anti Russian enterprise. It is a democratic union of equal nations and many are former Warsaw pact countries. The rise of the far right into popular politics mirrors events taking place in the US and the breach of international treaties going on all around Europe. Russia was not the first autocratic nation posing a threat to Europe. Turkey has been sponsoring ISIS in Sryia & Israel remains an occupier power. Russia is far down the list of anti EU powers.

How can Turkey be against a Union it wants to join?

KingBrian2

demfad wrote: »

How can Turkey be against a Union it wants to join?

Not certain they do want to join it Erdogan was planning his Ottoman style takeover of the Arabic world.

demfad

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Not certain they do want to join it Erdogan was planning his Ottoman style takeover of the Arabic world.

Turkey was negotiating with EU as recently as late 2016 until the EU froze the talks due to civil rights violations. Turkey also a member of EU customs Union so destroying the Eu would be massively damaging to the Turkish economy.
Where did you hear that Turkey wanted to destroy EU? Did you just make it up?

Elmer Blooker

demfad wrote: »

The Czechs latest to be hacked in Russia's cyberwar in an attack similar to a recent one against Poland.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/31/czech-cyber-attack-russia-suspected-of-hacking-diplomats-emails

That's overwhelming .... evidence ... I have to admit!

another foreign ministry official – speaking anonymously – confirmed that fingers were being pointed at Russia,

Could any of you please explain why Russia hasn't been accused of "interfering" in the Brexit vote? This decision by Britain to leave is the biggest crisis the EU has faced in it's 60 year existence, surely Putin is to blame? There was one Labour MP, a Remain activist who claimed Russian interference but he was a lone voice and soon disappeared when his accusations were totally ignored.

How can Turkey be against a Union it wants to join?

By letting jihadists freely pass through it's territory to and from Europe is hardly good for the stability of the EU.

KingBrian2

demfad wrote: »

Turkey was negotiating with EU as recently as late 2016 until the EU froze the talks due to civil rights violations. Turkey also a member of EU customs Union so destroying the Eu would be massively damaging to the Turkish economy.
Where did you hear that Turkey wanted to destroy EU? Did you just make it up?

Turkey like Russia are both autocratic states and both don't like a non-militarized European Union working together. The accusation that Russia wants to dismantle the EU is blatantly untrue it was the Ukrainian crisis that started off the EU-Russian diplomatic row. Up to that point Europe & Russia had shared many concerns. The Iran deal, combating Al Qaeda, trade opportunities and as for Turkey the peace talks with the Kurds. It all got screwed up with the rise of populist anti elitism in all these countries. So called democratic movements violently demanding greater powers.

Gatling

KingBrian2 wrote: »

A weak Europe unless Europe is planning to turn into a military alliance anytime soon Europe will never pose a threat to Russia again. That's the whole idea of the EU. People particularly the pro Atlanticists believe the EU is a anti Russian enterprise. It is a democratic union of equal nations and many are former Warsaw pact countries.

What and when did Europe ever pose a threat to russia.

scruffy66

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Cohen is a very well known Putinista..... I listen to Batchelors pods every day at work & had a listen to this one....

to sum up the 40 mins, Cohen asserts that, "Russia hasn't crossed any borders".

No point wasting bandwidth listening to lies like that.

Cohen is an American scholar and professor emeritus of Russian studies
at Princeton and New York University and would consider himself an
American patriot and a Realinista and not Putinista. He sees himself as
no friend of Putin or his style of leadership.
Cohen believes in Detente and bringing Russia in from the cold .
But look if you don't like Cohen , why don't you check out Chomsky or
John Mearsheimer or some other's who believe in Detente and that
The wests relationship with Russia needs to be reset.

On the other hand Bo, do you think everybody who believes in
Detente is a Putinista .

KingBrian2

Gatling wrote: »

What and when did Europe ever pose a threat to russia.

Oh i don't know the military build up during the Bush Presidency and the destabilization of Libya during the Obama presidency.

Professor Moriarty

Gatling wrote:

What and when did Europe ever pose a threat to russia.

France and Germany have invaded Russia.

Gatling

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Oh i don't know the military build up during the Bush Presidency and the destabilization of Libya during the Obama presidency.

But america isn't Europe so again where and when was Europe a threat to russia ,
Like for example Europe including many former Warsaw pact states choose to join the EU and similarity Nato ,but when it's said they joined the Warsaw pact that's not true sure it's not when russian force's occupatied your country and put a Kremlin puppet as an non democratic leader and government they didn't have a choice to say sorry we're not interested in joining the Warsaw pact which was nothing more than the military occupation of Eastern Europe ,
Haven't seen anything in history to suggest Europe is threatening Russia ,
The biggest threat to russia is European democracy and freedoms and living standards we all enjoy as European citizens

scruffy66

Gatling wrote: »

But surely the 18 million russians currently living and working across the EU counters putins agenda about uncontrolled migration destroying the EU ,

What do mean by agenda, surely people are entitled to their opinions and
concerns about uncontrolled migration, I'm personally for migration and
think the whole world could do with a lot less Nationalism.

But Russia has millions of migrants and 4 million Muslims living inside its
Borders , so it's not like their not entitled to have an opinion .

KingBrian2

Gatling wrote: »

But america isn't Europe so again where and when was Europe a threat to russia ,
Like for example Europe including many former Warsaw pact states choose to join the EU and similarity Nato ,but when it's said they joined the Warsaw pact that's not true sure it's not when russian force's occupatied your country and put a Kremlin puppet as an non democratic leader and government they didn't have a choice to say sorry we're not interested in joining the Warsaw pact which was nothing more than the military occupation of Eastern Europe ,
Haven't seen anything in history to suggest Europe is threatening Russia ,
The biggest threat to russia is European democracy and freedoms and living standards we all enjoy as European citizens

I take issue with occupying. Prior to the Soviet Union taking over the East those states were Nazi aligned. They were certainly not democratic before WW2. Only after they left the USSR stranglehold did they become truly democratic. This however took place after a treaty was signed in the 90's which officially ended the second world war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Final_Settlement_with_Respect_to_Germany

Up to that point from Russia's point of view Germany was always viewed as a threat. Sentiments echoed by British and French officials. The treaty was agreed at a different time in the world when states recognized international law even so to this day they still stand as important symbols of East-West cooperation and friendship.

Gatling

scruffy66 wrote: »

But Russia has millions of migrants and 4 million Muslims living inside its
Borders , so it's not like their not entitled to have an opinion .

Yes plenty of Muslims especially in Chechnya and several other provinces ,most of the migrants currently living in russia come mainly from various satellite states ,but sure Europe could say the 18 million russians migrants in Europe are more of a threat to the EU than the current migrants from Syria and elsewhere by a large number ,
They took no notice of Muslims tartars in Crimea not for the first time either ,

scruffy66

Gatling wrote: »

Yes plenty of Muslims especially in Chechnya and several other provinces ,most of the migrants currently living in russia come mainly from various satellite states ,but sure Europe could say the 18 million russians migrants in Europe are more of a threat to the EU than the current migrants from Syria and elsewhere by a large number ,
They took no notice of Muslims tartars in Crimea not for the first time either ,

Sorry got that wrong, there is about 12 to 14 million Muslims living in
Russia with 1.5 million living in Moscow.
60 % of the population of Crimea was Russia .
The poverty rate in Russia has dropped by 50 % since 2000.
They have net migration and their birth rate is on the rise and
Population should reach 147 million by 2020.
They have a lot of negative problems but sometimes it's good to focus
On the positives.
I'm sure if you asked European citizens, who they were more afraid of,
They would say Isis .

johnp001

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

France and Germany have invaded Russia.

Also the UK, US, Canada, Australia and France in the period after the 1917 revolution
North Russia Intervention

scruffy66

johnp001 wrote: »

Also the UK, US, Canada, Australia and France in the period after the 1917 revolution
North Russia Intervention

Poland invaded twice' how many is that now?

demfad

scruffy66 wrote: »

They have a lot of negative problems but sometimes it's good to focus
On the positives.

Authoritarianism is a serious problem. Another Kremlin critic poisoned in 2015 back in hospital after a similar attack yesterday:
http://www.rferl.org/a/kremlin-critic-russia-kara-murza-hospitalized/28274832.html

Gatling

demfad wrote: »

Authoritarianism is a serious problem. Another Kremlin critic poisoned in 2015 back in hospital after a similar attack yesterday:
http://www.rferl.org/a/kremlin-critic-russia-kara-murza-hospitalized/28274832.html

Poisoning ,heart attacks , unsolved murders seems to befall critics and journalists that oppose putin on a regular basis

KingBrian2

Gatling wrote: »

Poisoning ,heart attacks , unsolved murders seems to befall critics and journalists that oppose putin on a regular basis

Not the only country that takes human rights abuses lightly. Mind you in recent years they have cracked down on organised crime in the Russian
Federation. Targeting human traffickers & abusive corporations taking advantage of Russian workforce.

https://themoscowtimes.com/news/13-russians-arrested-for-human-trafficking-55499

MightyMandarin

Roger Stone, an avid supporter of Trump who worked with his campaign as a strategist and advisor did an AMA on reddit where he was asked something to do with his association with Carter Page, the man who supposedly went to Russia several times, most importantly in July last summer to meet with the FSB and organise the deal between them- I can't see the actual question as it was removed.

His reply is quite...interesting though

Who the hell is Carter Page. I never met or heard of this guy. I did hear he wormed his way onto some 100 member egg head advisory group in the campaign.
For months, you have heard that I colluded with Julian Assange of WikiLeaks to release the DNC emails and the emails of top Clinton aide John Podesta. These claims are of course patently false, as I and Mr. Assange have never met.
Like with most things, the defeated and apoplectic leaders of the Democratic party are trying to blame anyone and anything for Hillary Clinton’s disastrous loss. The emails revealed everything that Democratic operatives (Clinton partisans) did to rig the election against upstart Bernie Sanders, it exposed their “anything goes” mentality when it came to electing Hillary Clinton.
roger stoneWhat is lost in this discourse, by design, is the actual content of the emails. The content that revealed cash payments and cozy relationships from Clinton world to a majority of mainstream media anchors, prime-time political reporters, and others who constantly reminded us of their “impartiality.”
After months of coordinated hit pieces and sham reports featured on Fake News outlets like CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NYT, Julian Assange of WikiLeaks on numerous occasions had signaled that he had unspecified political dynamite that would shake up the presidential race.
Like many of you, I was anxious to see these leaks, and suspected that people like John Podesta and maybe even Hillary Clinton would have their private communications released. I did not have direct knowledge of the hacks, I did not facilitate the hacks. This narrative is from the same people who were found to have financial and personal allegiances to Hillary Clinton and her globalist puppet masters.
The Democrats played dirty pool against Bernie Sanders and greased the palms of the mainstream media for a relentless and ultimately unsuccessful blitzkrieg on Donald J. Trump. What was released through WikiLeaks simply confirmed suspicions long held by millions of Americans, it confirmed that the Clinton family is so hungry for power and relevance that they will do and say anything to steal the White House.
So, when you read the news reports and clippings of a massive Russian conspiracy, think about the source. These Clinton Cohorts in the media, in Washington D.C. and intelligentsia’s would rather incite a global conflict with Russia than admit their role in stealing the election from Bernie Sanders and under the table payouts from the Clintons.
Donald J. Trump is a direct threat to the endless war and machinations of the political establishment. Because of this, they will seek to distract and deflect on every front, most importantly with WikiLeaks.
The content of the leaked documents was damning enough, but the push-back from Clinton collaborators and their march towards war with Russia is all they can do to undermine his mission… our mission to Make America Great Again.

Note the classic pivot to Hillary, who lost the election several months ago, and the unrealistic claim that he's 'never heard of Carter Page'.

Anyone who thinks there's nothing going on here is flat out deluded imo.

Yourself isit

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Roger Stone, an avid supporter of Trump who worked with his campaign as a strategist and advisor did an AMA on reddit where he was asked something to do with his association with Carter Page, the man who supposedly went to Russia several times, most importantly in July last summer to meet with the FSB and organise the deal between them- I can't see the actual question as it was removed.

His reply is quite...interesting though



Note the classic pivot to Hillary, who lost the election several months ago, and the unrealistic claim that he's 'never heard of Carter Page'.

Anyone who thinks there's nothing going on here is flat out deluded imo.

No real argument there. Just confirmation bias.

There's nothing going on. I say undeludedly