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The Last Of Us 2
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BigPoppaDump wrote: »
But it is:pac:
As much an impact as picking up those ladders (and then walking slowly with them to set them down in another place nearby) had on me, I think I'll pass on a replay. Stealth sections were your standard fare, throw the bottle over there then walk the other way. The fact Ellie doesn't trigger ememies kinda takes you out of the moment too and sort of ruins the gravity of the situation. To it's credit the gun effects were pretty good. The game is fine but I'd rather rewatch it than replay it.Potential-Monke wrote: »God of War did it perfectly imo.
Agreed, God of War is a great example of how to do this better.0 -
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I've said it before that It's standard third person fare with an above average story and good dialogue. I'd still say it's a great game but it's not up there with the best for me. It still suffers from a lot of tonal inconsistencies like Uncharted when it being a game gets in the way the story.
And as a one time game designer I still think the surgery room scene is a gross failure of game design and hate that it's praised when Spec Ops The Line handled similar scenes far better.
TL;DR it's not even game of the year when it came out. Pikmin 3 is so underappreciated.
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Game Design 101: If a player can do something or is given a choice to do something they will do it.
In simple terms if you have a corridor blocked off with a knee high wall or a door players will try to get over them. And when the player finds out they are restricted by unnatural game design then the illusion and immersion is broken and you've lost the player.
You give the player rules and even if you restrict the player as long as they are aware of those restrictions they don't feel cheated. When the game designer changes those rules or restricts a player in an area that the player believes they have choice the player will feel cheated and you break that immersion.
I don't make the rules, this is the first thing all game designers should remember and consider when making a game. Its what I was thought
So surgery scene:Basically the game designer has designed this scenario with only one outcome. You shoot the doctor. Which is grand if the player wants to do that.
The problem is that the player still has full control over joel. If the player chooses another action the immersion breaks. Try to walk past and the player gets jankily blocked. Try to injure but not kill the doctor, doctor dies with animation as if he was blasted in the chest. Choose to hang around and ponder your decision, the scenario looks comical.
Another example of this type of poor game design is in Ninja theories DMC. There's sections as you move forward and the environment changes around the player making it seem like there's player agency and they are in trouble. Stop for a moment and you find out it's all just triggered by how far you walk forward.
Anyway back to the surgery room. If the game designer has one outcome there's better ways of doing this rather than giving the player that illusion of choice and shattering it once they try to express that choice. Have the player only have to pull the trigger with threat of game over if they don't do it in time. See MGS3 which did this really well. Or just have it as a cutscene.
I always mention spec ops as although some scenarios aren't perfect there's some excellent scenarios that take into account different players decisions. The mob scene for instance makes it seem like you have to shoot into the crowd but shooting into the air does the same thing. Of the scene with the hanging bodies. If the player chooses not to shoot the soldiers the outcome might still be the same but the game takes this into account and the player isn't cheated.
(One area I feel the game failed was the white phosphorous scene where the player has to launch the phosphorous to proceed and if you don't it's very unnatural that the game won't let you. For me this fails the same way the surgery scene in Last of Us fails).
Anyway a design flaw is a design flaw even if you perceive it. I was engrossed in that part of the game and then realizing that my choice wasn't taken into account just knocked me out of that engrossed state.
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If you were really engrossed in the game you wouldn't think twice about killing the people trying to vivisect your daughter.
If you were really engaged in the game you'd realise she wasn't your daughter :cool:
But seriously that doesn't excuse bad game design. It's like saying there's no issue with a game because you didn't run into a bug that is affecting a lot of people.Also you might have no issue with killing people especially ones trying to make sacrifices for the greater good, but I do which is why I made the decision I did. There was ways out of that situation that didn't involve killing unarmed civilians.
Although as a scientist (I've had a weird career path), the doctor was a complete hack if you read up on the additional info scattered around leading up to that point
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She was in every way except biologically, they clearly have a parent child relationship.Retr0gamer wrote: »If you were really engaged in the game you'd realise she wasn't your daughter :cool:
I think because of your background as soon as you get control you look for options, other people were swept up in the narrative.Retr0gamer wrote: »But seriously that doesn't excuse bad game design. It's like saying there's no issue with a game because you didn't run into a bug that is affecting a lot of people.
You probably should have turned away well before making it to the operating room then if you were happy to let Ellie die for the greater good.Retr0gamer wrote: »Also you might have no issue with killing people especially ones trying to make sacrifices for the greater good, but I do which is why I made the decision I did. There was ways out of that situation that didn't involve killing unarmed civilians.
Reading his notes and realising how inept the medical team were made it a whole lot easier to kill them.Retr0gamer wrote: »Although as a scientist (I've had a weird career path), the doctor was a complete hack if you read up on the additional info scattered around leading up to that point
And why spoiler text? this is the sequel thread.0 -
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Mr.Fantastic wrote: »That customization footage looks tasty.
Say it will look better on ps5 anyway, debating on whether to wait for it then or get it in the summer on the pro.
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Deleted User wrote: »The guy is holding up a knife and trying to stop you from taking Ellie. So of course you blast him.
I get that it looks a bit silly/buggy if you try not to blast him but 99% of gamers are not going to see that. They'll blast him without hesitation. You have to be actively contrarian or trying to break the game to see it.
Didn't think killing him was justified. So I shot his toe. It looked ridiculous, like a premier league footballer making the most of it. Tried to melee but that was super janky as well and the game wouldn't let.
The fact that I was looking for a way out of a morally grey situation meant I was pretty engrossed in the game at that stage. Then to find out that there was only the one way out left me disappointed and felt cheated by the design.
In that part of the game the player is given full freedom of movement and therefore has agency over their actions. It just feels so off in that moment when there's only one choice when the player has many. And a lot of why it sticks out so much is because up to that point the game got so much right. It's in the same game where the designer directs the camera towards the giraffes so you don't miss that moment and all other important kills are handled in a cutscene. I think a cutscene or MGS3 method would have worked better.Deleted User wrote: »You can be guaranteed it's a masterpiece of gaming if a certain few are actively nitpicking at this level for the sake of it.
Certain few so bothered by such a minuscule thing at end game when in reality a story is being told to the player and there is no choice in this matter if you are actively engaged and following the story from start to finish.
Yes you can call it nitpicking but then again that's what being critical about something is. I have said it was a great game that I really enjoyed but it's not perfect. The world would be a much more boring place if we all just agreed with each other and critical discourse is crucial to the enjoyment and appreciation of art. It's why I don't get fanboys being so defensive and just flat out dismissing any and all criticism. Discussing where something might not have worked and how it could have done stuff better I find far more interesting than fanboy defensive stances.
And yes to your first statement. The fact that people are being critical about it means it's a great game worth discussing.
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You probably should have turned away well before making it to the operating room then if you were happy to let Ellie die for the greater good.
Reading his notes and realising how inept the medical team were made it a whole lot easier to kill them.
You did an awful amount of killing as well for the same purpose. Being inept isn't a death sentence and the world seemed like it was in a dire predicament. Fact is I wasn't Joel and didn't have the same stakes or have the same mentality he had. Think that's why the decision should have been left to the narrative and not the player. It was his story and his mental state at the time was not the same as the average players.
It's interesting though that different people got different things from it.
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