The Last Of Us 2

Retr0gamer

No, you're a weirdo now, just like me. Welcome to the club.

johnny_ultimate

My least favourite bit in the original TLOU by far was the sniper scene, where you’re in the house protecting Ellie from bandits and clickers. It’s such a lazy, bland piece of blockbuster game design - basically a turret section in the middle of the game. In a game at its best when you’re scraping for resources, that scene felt like any other AAA action game - and a reminder on how often Naughty Dog often in general fall back on long shooting sequences to fill out scenes unnecessarily.

LOL

Retr0gamer

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

My least favourite bit in the original TLOU by far was the sniper scene, where you’re in the house protecting Ellie from bandits and clickers. It’s such a lazy, bland piece of blockbuster game design - basically a turret section in the middle of the game. In a game at its best when you’re scraping for resources, that scene felt like any other AAA action game - and a reminder on how often Naughty Dog often in general fall back on long shooting sequences to fill out scenes unnecessarily.

It's a trap nearly all triple A developers fall into though. It's when the need for the game to be a videogame trumps the developers ambition. It would be nice if both developers could be braver in their designs, and the producers with the money would allow developers to be craver. You mentioned another moment like this with Uncharted 3 where Nathan is stranded in the desert and how it could have been so much more if the developer had followed through with the premise better. Illusion of Gaia's raft scene springs to mind, which is a similar scenario but the developer didn't compromise.

Leroy42

I think you are being a bit unfair. TLOU did, for the most part, concentrate on narrative rather than gameplay for the sake of it. The game missions seemed designed to move the story on, to show the evolving nature of the participants characters. There was a bit, the game needs YT videos and reviews to get sales afterall.

It is why second or third play throughs tend to bring up these issues as players can now concentrate on the game play itself rather than looking to live the story. The AI throughout the game was pretty awful, and many times it just became a matter of learning the timings and acting accordingly.

But that to me simply shows that they focused more on the narrative. It was a basically a movie, where you got to play the leading role but the script was already written. And it was the first, certainly the first really successful, attempt to do that and showed that gamers wanted such an experience and that video games, when done well, could link the two apparently different genres of games and movies.

The reason for the need to kill the doctor was to ensure that you took the decision that the author had deemed was the way to go. Joel had to do that in order to create the idea of guilt and possible remorse, particularly given that he knew Ellie would not approve. It counterbalanced the shock we felt at the soldier killing Joel daughter at the start, when he had other options, with Joel now taking the same course because he felt he was right.

You are free to let the other doctors live, that is within your control, but by removing control over the first doctor it is forcing the player to confront the reality of what they had done throughout the game, not just in that scene. It cements that Joel is not a nice character, not some sort of anti-hero, but a very flawed and damaged individual that under normal circumstances we would all hate but we are prepared to forgive him due to his situation and his relationship with Ellie.

They could have put it in a cit scene, like killing Marlene, but forcing the player do to it, whilst a bit clunky, make the outcome ours. We had pressed the button.

gimli2112

Really agree with your comments that it was like being in a movie and that Joel is a seriously flawed character but one we root for. It was the scene where he kidnaps the two goons while looking for Ellie that drove it home for me. I didn't even realise you could leave the other doctors alive, it's always a bloodbath in my playthroughs.

johnny_ultimate

As I’ve said before, the one time Naughty Dog really got the balance right was Left Behind. Obviously it’s a short form game and operating under different expectations as a result... but that to me was them making the game I always wanted to see them make. The focus is almost entirely on the story and characters, and the combat is kept to a minimum and always believably motivated by the situations. I also think a ‘one sitting’ length can be a really effective way of telling a story without having to fill it out with lots of gunplay or diversions.

I get that games of this sort of production value need to be traditional, large-scale AAA games for financial reasons. Part of me wishes they’d be able to focus on shorter, tighter games, though, as I feel it’s ultimately often a more fitting form for the cinematic, heavily narrative-focused games Naughty Dog makes. I’m still very much looking forward to seeing what they do with TLOU2, mind you - I also hope they’ve got a neat, smaller-scale DLC episode planned after :pac:

Potential-Monke

I think ye are reading into these games too much, like ye are trying to find something wrong. A game can have hundreds of flaws, but if it draws you in, they don't matter. TLOU had it's issues, and I don't hold it in as high a regard as some do, but it was an extremely entertaining game. Games will never get it all right, but some come close. TLOU, God of War (2018), H:ZD, and many others are fantastic games if you let yourself be drawn in and don't allow a mechanic (or lack thereof) to overtake the enjoyment.

It's rare to get a game with excellent gameplay and story, so if something similar to that comes along and hooks me, I can easily overlook bad sections or mechanics. Like TLOU.

Retr0gamer

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I think ye are reading into these games too much, like ye are trying to find something wrong. A game can have hundreds of flaws, but if it draws you in, they don't matter. TLOU had it's issues, and I don't hold it in as high a regard as some do, but it was an extremely entertaining game. Games will never get it all right, but some come close. TLOU, God of War (2018), H:ZD, and many others are fantastic games if you let yourself be drawn in and don't allow a mechanic (or lack thereof) to overtake the enjoyment.

It's rare to get a game with excellent gameplay and story, so if something similar to that comes along and hooks me, I can easily overlook bad sections or mechanics. Like TLOU.

Nobody is denying it's a great game. And there'd nothing wrong with critical discourse about a game whether it's good or bad points. Last I checked this was a discussion forum. Videogame fans are weird. I mean you could talk about an absolute masterpiece of cinema and discuss where you see flaws but be a little negative about a videogame and its fanboys will shutdown all discussion about it. To overlook is just to bury your head in the sand and if you want to do that then do it, ignorance is bliss and it wont spoil your enjoyment of the game. I just don't understand people that want to do this then try to shutdown any discussion of negatives about a game they attach themselves to. It's bizarre behaviour. I suppose the same thing goes on with football fans and it still makes no sense there.

Anyway I'm all for discourse about any game, it's why I enjoy the likes of Matthewmatosis and Game Makers Toolkit. Hell you can even throw as much **** as you want at Ace Combat 7. Just as long as you remember that in the end I'll be at the right side of history.

Potential-Monke

Sorry if I cam across as giving out about giving out. I just think that we (as in everyone) are too quick to nit pick an otherwise overall fantastic game. Nothing is perfect, we will never get perfection (because it's too different for everyone, can't please everyone at the same time). Maybe it's just me getting old and appreciating all the work that goes into making a AAA game these days. Maybe it's because (for me) having grown up with gaming as it grows has given me a better outlook on the whole cycle. Maybe I'm just in one of those weird moods and I'll be back to giving out stink tomorrow!

I don't intend to shut down discussion, far from it. Just giving my 2 cents that we nit pick the small bits and lose the overall experience in the process. That could also be why I rarely play back through SP games, it won't have the same effect as the initial playthrough and I would start nit picking then, which would take from the overall experience, imo. Call of Duty is a prime example, it has a very strong love/hate relationship throughout it's life cycle (1 year). But as that's a constantly ongoing, live game that's to be expected.

I've no doubt my second playthrough of God of War (just before GoW 2, or 5 I suppose, comes out) will leave me as impressed as the initial GOTY experience I got. That's just me though. A good example would be if we did the same with sex. You could have the best, most mind blowing sexual encounter of your life, but if you were to really look into the experience, you could find things which would take away from that (always, there is no perfect sex, can't be when there are humans involved).

Leroy42

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Nobody is denying it's a great game. And there'd nothing wrong with critical discourse about a game whether it's good or bad points. Last I checked this was a discussion forum. Videogame fans are weird. I mean you could talk about an absolute masterpiece of cinema and discuss where you see flaws but be a little negative about a videogame and its fanboys will shutdown all discussion about it. To overlook is just to bury your head in the sand and if you want to do that then do it, ignorance is bliss and it wont spoil your enjoyment of the game. I just don't understand people that want to do this then try to shutdown any discussion of negatives about a game they attach themselves to. It's bizarre behaviour. I suppose the same thing goes on with football fans and it still makes no sense there.

Anyway I'm all for discourse about any game, it's why I enjoy the likes of Matthewmatosis and Game Makers Toolkit. Hell you can even throw as much **** as you want at Ace Combat 7. Just as long as you remember that in the end I'll be at the right side of history.

Nobody is stopping anyone from pointing out flaws, just because people that necessarily agree with your position as to the impact of those flaws does not equate to them burying their heads or trying to shut down debate.

Who here has said the game was perfect? IMO, and I've said it, the game had plenty of flaws, particularly when you look back at it from today's POV. But like the best art, cinema etc, what was once considered to be a masterpiece can be viewed differently when looked at based on what could have been achieved. But that omits that in any of these things decisions need to be made and perfection is not always possible. These can be because of any one or many of; time, budget, technology, skill and a few others.

IMO, whilst there are clearly flaws, and some things (I have mentioned the terrible AI) that I would like to have been better, the game still had a major impact on me, still drew me and made me care for Joel and Ellie and made me think about what I would do in those situations. That is pretty good for a video game.

Retr0gamer

Well I'm not debating that it's not an amazing and enjoyable game. Can't take that away from it and even if I didn't think it was I can't take away your opinion of it.

These small parts of the game annoy me because the game is annoyingly almost brilliant. Almost but not quite. And they stand out because of the quality of the rest of the game. It's the difference between a Silent Hill 2 level of videogame and something that might have trouble scraping into my favourite games of all time.

Evade

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Hell you can even throw as much **** as you want at Ace Combat 7. Just as long as you remember that in the end I'll be at the right side of history.

It really isn't that good for Ace Combat.

Retr0gamer

Potential-Monke wrote: »

A good example would be if we did the same with sex. You could have the best, most mind blowing sexual encounter of your life, but if you were to really look into the experience, you could find things which would take away from that (always, there is no perfect sex, can't be when there are humans involved).

Protip: if you are going to use an analogy on a games forum, pick something that more than 25% of the regulars would have experienced. Like the perfect pop tart.

Evade

Retro, you really are a snide, condescending, nasty piece of ****.

SolvableKnave

Evade wrote: »

Retro, you really are a snide, condescending, nasty piece of ****.

Retr0gamer

Evade wrote: »

Retro, you really are a snide, condescending, nasty piece of ****.

Don't blame the messenger, the stats don't lie.

All joking aside, there is definitely a 100% chance the joke just went over your head and your current sense of humour is at 0%.

Zero-Cool

Haha

https://twitter.com/Neil_Druckmann/status/1230894710308257792?s=19

EoinMcLovin

Follow up tweet

https://twitter.com/Neil_Druckmann/status/1230898554878586880?s=19

Zero-Cool

Final ep of Nolan and troy's definitive playthrough of TLOU with Ashley and Neil as guests, should be a good one, as long as Troy lets the rest talk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y77sEGZbBw

JimBurnley

Last of us series in the works https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/last-us-series-works-at-hbo-chernobyl-creator-1282707

ERG89

JimBurnley wrote: »

Last of us series in the works https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/last-us-series-works-at-hbo-chernobyl-creator-1282707

If its half as good as Chernobyl it'll be the best TV show/Movie from a video game IP

J. Marston

Didn't Logan tell a very similar story and do it very well after TLOU's release? I feel like it'll be compared to that a lot.

Zero-Cool

JimBurnley wrote: »

Last of us series in the works https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/last-us-series-works-at-hbo-chernobyl-creator-1282707

Makes so much sense now, i see Mazin interacting with Neil a lot on twitter and airways thought it was cool. Chernobyl was the best thing on telly last year and working with Neil means it's gonna be quality. Brilliant news!

CastorTroy

Wonder how much a season would cover.
By the time it comes out we'll have 2 games.

sniper_samurai

https://twitter.com/HardDriveMag/status/1235659095111327744?s=19

Zero-Cool

Casting is gonna be the trickiest thing with this. Would be better with unknowns im ok. Jake Gyllenhaal would be an obvious choice but he would take away from the experience i think. The girl in the recent Netflix series "i am not okay with this" could be a good Ellie.

gimli2112

I can't get Josh Brolin out of my head and don't know why. Josh,,,, Joel? The beard? Maybe I just liked him in Oldboy.

Zero-Cool

gimli2112 wrote: »

I can't get Josh Brolin out of my head and don't know why. Josh,,,, Joel? The beard? Maybe I just liked him in Oldboy.

Oooh Josh would be a great choice!

CastorTroy

Ellen Page as Ellie?

I'd say they'd look to someone like Millie Bobby Brown. Loads of Disney/Nickelodeon actresses. Depends if they want someone older playing young