"Coding" in schools...

Dyr

beauf wrote: »

I'd agree.

You could argue that many colleges aren't turning out suitable (industry ready) graduates either. The reason for that isn't that they needed to do coding in schools.

I would argue its because colleges and professional qualification bodies are now all about turning as much profit as they can by cramming bodies through their doors

Grayson

beauf wrote: »

...And....?



No I said most will lack the aptitude. If we were taking about general IT skills, then I might have said some. But coding is a specialized area, most will not be good at it.

That is the problem. Even at university level it's the luck of the draw as to whether you get a lecturer who can generate interest and understanding or if they'll drone on from a powerpoint slide or book.

The single worst lecturer/teacher I've ever had was one for mathematical computing. Notes that had nothing to do with lectures which had nothing to do with practicals. And none of the notes/lecturers/practicals actually made any sense.

Still, to be fair, it's probably the same challenge teachers face with maths.

ancapailldorcha

beauf wrote: »

It won't be skill. It will be years of torture they will forget the moment they can drop the subject. It will the same as any other subject in that regard. Most people are bored to tears with coding. Even of those working in IT only a minority will be interested in coding.

It'll only be years of torture if it's treated like Irish. Otherwise, you're exaggerating.

siblers

beauf wrote: »

It won't be skill. It will be years of torture they will forget the moment they can drop the subject. It will the same as any other subject in that regard. Most people are bored to tears with coding. Even of those working in IT only a minority will be interested in coding.

It all depends on what they are being taught, if they are being thought SQL then it'll be boring but if they are using code to make visual applications or websites, then it can be fun. There are lots of applications like Scratch which are great for giving the very basics and can become more complex the more you get into it. Lots of other programmes thtn mix drag and drop with coding behind the scenes, there will need to be a balance in place.

Coding should only be an aspect of the subject anyway, not everyone who does a course in computing will end up being a developer, they need to be introduced to other aspects of computer science.

beauf

siblers wrote: »

It all depends on what they are being taught, if they are being thought SQL then it'll be boring but if they are using code to make visual applications or websites, then it can be fun. There are lots of applications like Scratch which are great for giving the very basics and can become more complex the more you get into it. Lots of other programmes thtn mix drag and drop with coding behind the scenes, there will need to be a balance in place.

Coding should only be an aspect of the subject anyway, not everyone who does a course in computing will end up being a developer, they need to be introduced to other aspects of computer science.

if you look at what happens in CoderDojo, scratch, websites minecraft etc. But its pretty clear from that, that its a very specific group that do that, or have any interest in it.

Like I said earlier. If they said computer studies I'd be more encouraged. But
When people say learn "coding", it make me wince. Its like someone saying learn compootering.

At the same time if you are looking for extra resources for a bright kid or a child who needs support, there are very little.

GreenFolder2

Knowing our schools, it'll be the first computer language based on Irish language and grammar and will have elements of Catholic faith formation infused within it. They'll then teach it on paper using the learning of by heart method.

Then everyone will develop an absolute hatred of Cód and never touch a computer again, but claim they're fluent in the census causing the Government to conclude it's s great success.

Would be good if implemented well. If it isn't, it'll very quickly make people lose interest in it forever.

Permabear

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fizzypish

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

MS office is everywhere. From the point of view of what is defiantly useful in future to all students, MS office knowledge is better than knowing any coding. In 90% of cases, if you work on a computer, you use office in some way.

I totally made up that % but it is very popular.

jimgoose

fizzypish wrote: »

MS office is everywhere. From the point of view of what is defiantly useful in future to all students, MS office knowledge is better than knowing any coding. In 90% of cases, if you work on a computer, you use office in some way.

I totally made up that % but it is very popular.

OpenOffice/LibreOffice is equivalent and better-behaved.

fizzypish

jimgoose wrote: »

OpenOffice/LibreOffice is equivalent and better-behaved.

Cheaper too. Doesn't really matter as long as students are educated in this type of package or similar. 90% of them will use this info. Much less will use the coding.

I love making up %.

jimgoose

fizzypish wrote: »

Cheaper too. Doesn't really matter as long as students are educated in this type of package or similar. 90% of them will use this info. Much less will use the coding.

I love making up %.

As long as they don't pick up this durty shtinkin' habit a lot of manager-types seem to have of using the spreadsheet as if it were a wordprocessor. If so, I shall beat them swiftly about the noggin with a beefy old StarOffice manual.

H3llR4iser

You're concentrating too much about the specifics folks, what language, systems or environments are used is only partially important; The fundamental part is giving the kids a bit of an insight about how computers work and expose them to critical, problem-solving oriented thinking as opposed to the classical, mainstream "wait for stuff to be spoon fed to you".

The technicalities come into play when it's time to keep their attention up, as I mentioned earlier...games and gaming are the way to go; Everything is easier to learn when put into a familiar and stimulating context, rather than the stuffy, institutional "neutral" scenarios.

How much more interesting would maths have been if, say, problems didn't start with "a triangle has a side that is 3cm long..." but with "A Formula 1 driver is racing on a triangular-shaped track, the shortest straight takes him 3 seconds to travel..."?

beauf wrote: »

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I tend to agree with you if talking about myself - although I have been working as a software engineer for the last 15 years and it's a good job with good pay (in the right countries/companies, don't dream about living on a software dev's wage in Southern Europe), I would hardly call it a dream career nor a "vocation". There are plenty of things I find more interesting and that I'd prefer doing.

Yet, over the years I met plenty of other people, most I would say, who would almost literally breathe, eat and cr@p code. They'd find an intricate coding issue as gripping as I'd find the final lap of a great motor race, spend their week end learning about this or that new library and so on.
Sometimes I doubt their sanity, but that's just me

Permabear wrote: »

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You hit the nail on the head; Interestingly, a friend who's not into IT nor associated with it at any level made the same observation last week end. Even from his "outsider" (basically a pure "user") point of view, he quite aptly observed how technology has gone back to a pure "fruition" model, more or less as it was with TV decades ago. People harp on about there being "interactivity" because of Youtubers and such, but in concept those ain't too different from the private TV networks of yesteryear; The technology simply doesn't encourage exploration anymore as it did a few years ago.

Nidom

I think it could be a double edged sword, poorly implemented and it could turn many students off IT degrees.

Dyr

H3llR4iser wrote: »

How much more interesting would maths have been if, say, problems didn't start with "a triangle has a side that is 3cm long..." but with "A Formula 1 driver is racing on a triangular-shaped track, the shortest straight takes him 3 seconds to travel..."?

Not any more interesting at all and I still wouldn't have been any good at maths just because someone tried to make it relevant and really lame way "You kids like car racing dontchaa??", eh no, formula 1 is for ****ing poindexters who listen to Queen

You can try jazz a subject up with glitter but kids have an aptitude for it or they don't and that won't change it

jimgoose

Bambi wrote: »

...formula 1 is for ****ing poindexters who listen to Queen...

:pac::pac::pac:

It's true, dammit - it's all true! I was that soldier.

H3llR4iser

H3llR4iser wrote: »

You hit the nail on the head; Interestingly, a friend who's not into IT nor associated with it at any level made the same observation last week end. Even from his "outsider" (basically a pure "user") point of view, he quite aptly observed how technology has gone back to a pure "fruition" model, more or less as it was with TV decades ago. People harp on about there being "interactivity" because of Youtubers and such, but in concept those ain't too different from the private TV networks of yesteryear; The technology simply doesn't encourage exploration anymore as it did a few years ago.

Maybe in the "mainstream", but that's an order of magnitude greater than it was 10-12 years ago. While plenty have flocked in to just be "users", how many million Raspberry Pis have been sold? Have you seen the **** people are doing in the likes of Minecraft? As a percentage of users the hacking/homebrew thing has gone down, in total numbers I don't think so.

pumpkin4life

Bambi wrote: »

Not any more interesting at all and I still wouldn't have been any good at maths just because someone tried to make it relevant and really lame way "You kids like car racing dontchaa??", eh no, formula 1 is for ****ing poindexters who listen to Queen

You can try jazz a subject up with glitter but kids have an aptitude for it or they don't and that won't change it

Exactly. The only thing I can think that might make it more interesting:

"Hey kids, if you learn basic statistics and probability, then you can make a lot of money in poker games/online gambling!"

Kadser

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

??? Are you saying women can't teach computer science?

I'm saying most of our secondary teachers (over 70% women) will never be able to teach anyone computer science.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Kadser wrote: »

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

??? Are you saying women can't teach computer science?

I'm saying most of our secondary teachers (over 70% women) will never be able to teach anyone computer science.

Considering that secondary trachers specialise in specific subjects, it's probably safe to say that 70% of then them probably couldnt teach any given subject.

The Wolverine

kenmc wrote: »

The flip side is that I do not believe that everyone has the capability to become a professional programmer. In the same way that not everyone can become an artist, or a sculptor, or a fashion designer or an author etc. Yes everyone can hold a pencil or a paintbrush but few can master it sufficiently to make a living.

Excellent point, exactly my thoughts. You either have the mindset or you don't. Same with people who are more geared towards maths, chemistry or physics.

It's grand to have the option of it but all I'd worry about is the Government, department, teachers and parents who lets face it 99.9% won't know anything about it, will just expect children will do well in the subject like how they expect kids to get good English, French or say History and Geography.

A basic up to junior cert subject might be ok for most kids to keep up but say leaving cert could be tough for those who aren't into it, make it an option for leaving cert like technical graphics or something, which ironically I remember parents forcing kids to during the boom as they could all "get jobs as architects" even tho the kids said they hated it and then were surprised when their child failed or scraped a pass in the leaving on it.

They were surprised because they just assumed it's something that can be drilled into a child like poems and essays for English.

Not the kids fault, just that parents and others need to be educated that it is something you'd need to be specially inclined and have the mindset for.

Phoebas

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Programming would be a great vehicle for teaching problem-solving skills.

But, having thought about it, there are quite a lot of subjects on the leaving curriculum already and when this is introduced it's likely to be taken up by people who would end up going studying Comp Sci at third level anyway.

After Inter Cert, Science is broken up into Biology, Chemistry and Physics, so maybe they should do something similar with Maths, with one of the subjects having a large element of computer science topics .

Dyr

The Wolverine wrote: »

They were surprised because they just assumed it's something that can be drilled into a child like poems and essays for English.
.

Yeah, well there's the problem as well, English as a subject can't just be drilled into people but that's what the curriculum did in my day

Same with Art

Phoebas

I can't remember if I posted this before, but there is already a leaving cert subject called 'Technology'.
Something around 1200 students sat the exam this year. I'd expect Computer Science to be a fair bit more niche than 'Technology' - I had a quick scan though the curriculum and it's very broad.
What'll happen is we'll get a few hundred students sitting this , 90℅ of them destined for computer science careers anyway.

Lone Stone

I wish they taught coding back when i was in school, it needs to become a standard subject or an optional one at least.

The_Valeyard

Lone Stone wrote: »

I wish they taught coding back when i was in school, it needs to become a standard subject or an optional one at least.

Optional. Not standard.

Needs to be treated like a language or applied maths.

Kadser

Our President is correct. They should be taught philosophy in schools. If kids learn to think outside of our feminised PC education system they should have the ability to code.

namloc1980

Need to start in primary schools. The level of science and technology teaching in primary schools ranges from nil to virtually nil. Eldest is in 1st and the amount of science based things they've done could be written on a beer mat. They've done dozens of hours on stories about middle eastern myths however.

Kadser

There's no time for teaching coding with Irish kids learning about vital topics like Irish, religion, and climate change.

padd b1975

An ECDL type course is probably adequate at this level.

While laudable as an initiative, logistically it's going to be very difficult to implement as outlined earlier in the thread.
It could be a financial black hole to get up and running to the detriment of other subjects and students.