"Coding" in schools...

jimgoose

The latest stroke of genius from our Imperious Leaders appears to be teaching Computer Science for the Leaving Cert:

http://www.thejournal.ie/coding-irish-curriculum-3099021-Nov2016/

I think, rather than jumping on this latest "cool" bandwagon, diverting yet more attention and resources from the teaching of proper core knowledge and in the process giving teachers even more to complain about, it would be rather more in their line to try to reform the current ridiculous exam-passing machine approach to secondary education, and maybe add a US-style driver's education module to try to prevent youngsters from killing themselves be the dozen. I also resent the notion of our school curricula being influenced, even in small part, by some Segway-riding Californian twit who's just invented YASPL*.

What say ye?



* Yet Another Stupid Programming Language

Mickeroo

If it gets implemented it would probably be the most useful, worthwhile subject in the entire curriculum. Best idea they've had in ages.

gifted

I thought this was about the codes that pupils use...like LOB...look out boys

GLaDOS

Yeah I can't see the harm in it. I definitely would have taken it up in school if I had the chance.

Blatter

It'd make far more sense and be far more useful than other popular subjects that are currently in the curriculum like History and Geography. Not to say that those subjects don't have their merits, but a basic computer science subject would have way more relevancy in the real world, particularly from a jobs perspective.

Pete Moss

Coding/Computer Science is more deserving to be part of a school's curriculum in this age than Religion, IMO.

fizzypish

Not a bad idea. I think pseudo code instead of specific language would be best. Also, teach ECDL properly. MS office is the industry standard (from my working experience). If you want to be broad basic DOS and UNIX navigation. Defiantly needs to be an optional subject though. Can't force people to learn this **** if they're not interested. If you want to be a sadist force them to do a report in LaTeX.

ahlookit

Two things

1 Where are the teachers going to come from? It will take years to teach the teachers

2 What are IT facilities like in schools these days? No use teaching theory, it has to be hands on. And for less well off students who don't have access to their own PC at home, will the schools allow them to tinker away at PCs after hours?

As an aside, I helped out at a coder dojo for a while - it was amazing to see how quickly young kids picked up on Scratch, and how they just "got" programming constructs straight away. I've no doubt given the right support structures it will allow some kids to thrive.

PS, will the Dept of Education claim ownership of code developed in schools when some 12 year old designs an app that makes a fortune ?

pumpkin4life

They'll destroy it. Turn it into the most boring pointless subject teaching some pointless out of date language which will murder it for some of the lads which would have more of an aptitude for it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

jimgoose wrote: »

The latest stroke of genius from our Imperious Leaders appears to be teaching Computer Science for the Leaving Cert:

http://www.thejournal.ie/coding-irish-curriculum-3099021-Nov2016/

I think, rather than jumping on this latest "cool" bandwagon, diverting yet more attention and resources from the teaching of proper core knowledge and in the process giving teachers even more to complain about, it would be rather more in their line to try to reform the current ridiculous exam-passing machine approach to secondary education, and maybe add a US-style driver's education module to try to prevent youngsters from killing themselves be the dozen. I also resent the notion of our school curricula being influenced, even in small part, by some Segway-riding Californian twit who's just invented YASPL*.

What say ye?



* Yet Another Stupid Programming Language

This would be the problem skeptic me would have a probelm with: I don't trust them to put together a good, trouough and practical syallabus to turn the idea into someting worthwhile. Just something to get a grade in and points for entereing into college.

The idea will also live or die by how they go about recruiting and training the teacehrs.

fancy pigeon

pumpkin4life wrote: »

They'll destroy it. Turn it into the most boring pointless subject teaching some pointless out of date language which will murder it for some of the lads which would have more of an aptitude for it.

Teaching assembly/machine code and reports to be written with LaTeX

Goya

It's not an attempt to be "cool" (such a comment strikes me as not really understanding what coding is). It's extremely beneficial - and important too imo.

Giblet

They manage it in other countries, so it should be fine.
OP, you have some really misguided opinions about programming.
Computer Science is an essential skill in many fields, emerging or otherwise.
Teaching something like python to Leaving Cert students opens up a lot of fields in Science, Industry, Data, Analytics, Laboratories, Machine Learning, Application Programming, Statistics, Geomatics, Automation, Electronics, Agriculture, Engineering of any discipline. It would be foolish to think otherwise, you seem to harbor some resentment to the Silicon Valley side of things, which in the grand scheme of things, is an isolated bubble. Computer Science has been around before you or I were born, and now it's more relevant than ever.

Goya

Cynicism for the sake of it is cool and edgy.

pumpkin4life

fancy pigeon wrote: »

Teaching assembly/machine code and reports to be written with LaTeX

If you're teaching lads something as fùcking clunky as VB then you're going to have a mass exodus of potential coders. That's what I'd be worried about.

Some mc code might be good though.

jimgoose

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

...The idea will also live or die by how they go about recruiting and training the teacehrs.

If, as I believe should also be done with ADIs, they recruit some grizzled old Kung Fu masters who think in C++ to do a couple of hours a week in schools, I could probably get behind it. We'll probably end up with over-stressed teachers trying to wrap their heads around the very basics, mangling it, and then teaching it. Badly.

Flimpson wrote: »

...such a comment strikes me as not really understanding what coding is...

<HARRUMPH> Right! :pac:

Giblet wrote: »

...OP, you have some really misguided opinions about programming...

Riiiight! :pac::pac::pac:

arctictree

My fear would be that big companies and consultants would hijack this and advice the Government incorrectly. A bit of HTML/JS and Python/Perl/PHP on a LAMP/WAMP stack is really all that is needed to get the kids interested.

pumpkin4life

Print Hello World!

14 year old pumpkin: wtf is this shìte

ahlookit

arctictree wrote: »

My fear would be that big companies and consultants would hijack this and advice the Government incorrectly. A bit of HTML/JS and Python/Perl/PHP on a LAMP/WAMP stack is really all that is needed to get the kids interested.

They would be able to produce a great powerpoint deck at the end of the syllabus though :P

Where are they going to get the teachers.

Lots of people are put off a subject in a school that they later come to love as an adult, individual who become fluent Irish speakers as adult but who has a so so interest in it in school.

It could put people off as much as encourage them.

Skylinehead

I wonder where the teachers are going to come from. Nobody is going to move from a well paid job to having to deal with angsty teenagers for far less.

fizzypish

Skylinehead wrote: »

I wonder where the teachers are going to come from. Nobody is going to move from a well paid job to having to deal with angsty teenagers for far less.

Yup and in order to learn computer science you need computers. You also need more than one dis-organized computer class a week or nothing will sink in. Its definitely a good idea but I've no idea how to implement it properly.

Witchie

Back in 1991 I did a module of computer programming as part of leaving cert maths and it was horrendous. Put me off coding but did teach me a lot about computers and developed a love for them.

Fast forward to 2013 and I decided to retrain by doing a course called webactivate from the Digital Skills Academy. We were learning all sorts of aspects of the digital working environment - writing for the web, digital marketing and html and css. I was so scared starting the html stuff but found that the basic coding I had done 22 years earlier made it a little easier to understand and the subject I thought I would fail was the one that I got over 90% in. I now work at content creation and can go into the back end of sites and fix little problems making me a more employable person even with just a very basic knowledge of coding.

Sure that is just one case but I feel that in transition year in schools there is a great opportunity to run coder dojo type modules and even if people don't go into programming, they will have a better understanding of what is involved which can only help in working in the digital industry. I went on to study project management and having a grounding in some coding means that if I move to work in that area, I will understand how long it takes and the problems that arise.

I think it is a great idea but like others said, it needs to be done right as a fun taster in the earlier years and then maybe as a leaving cert subject for those who feel it is something they would like to do.

DredFX

Skylinehead wrote: »

I wonder where the teachers are going to come from. Nobody is going to move from a well paid job to having to deal with angsty teenagers for far less.

You'd be surprised.

Teach a class full of mopey teenagers who'll probably use the python and C# you teach them to make sex games.

Or,

A 50-hour job with no advancement opportunities, awful sprint management, and enough crunch-time periods for your wife to commit ten consecutive affairs and still feel lonely by the time you get home.

jimgoose

Skylinehead wrote: »

I wonder where the teachers are going to come from. Nobody is going to move from a well paid job to having to deal with angsty teenagers for far less.

Yeah. And that's just the other teachers in the break room! :pac:

Giblet

jimgoose wrote: »

Riiiight! :pac::pac::pac:

Having coding knowledge doesn't mean you have a valid opinion

jimgoose

Flimpson wrote: »

Cynicism for the sake of it is cool and edgy.

Labeling an opinion which differs from yours as "cynicism" despite knowing nothing about the holder of that opinion is quite cool and edgy as well, it would seem.

talking_walnut

Jesus you're all a bunch of negative nancys. Would you prefer they keep the curriculum stagnant? Sure what was wrong with doing an Intercert in P.T and Clerical Skills on a slide-rule? These computer things are only a phase anyway

jimgoose

Giblet wrote: »

Having coding knowledge...

That's one way of putting it, I suppose...

Giblet

jimgoose wrote: »

That's one way of putting it, I suppose...

What's the other way.

BackToWinnipeg

Silly idea.

As a software engineer for many years I noticed in university that many, many people just simply couldn't get their heads around it. The whole concept of OOP and how it relates to the real world just doesn't sit right with a lot of people.

If you want to become a developer, then go to college and learn when you are older and might have some interest in it. Most kids won't be able to grasp the concept and will end up hating it.

jimgoose

Giblet wrote: »

What's the other way.

http://catb.org/esr/writings/unix-koans/methodology-consultant.html

Giblet

BackToWinnipeg wrote: »

Silly idea.

As a software engineer for many years I noticed in university that many, many people just simply couldn't get their heads around it.

They probably regret choosing it as a course then right?

GLaDOS

BackToWinnipeg wrote: »

Silly idea.

As a software engineer for many years I noticed in university that many, many people just simply couldn't get their heads around it. The whole concept of OOP and how it relates to the real world just doesn't sit right with a lot of people.

If you want to become a developer, then go to college and learn when you are older and might have some interest in it. Most kids won't be able to grasp the concept and will end up hating it.

Surely having the chance to get their head around it in school is preferable to signing up to a college course and then realising it's not for you?

murpho999

Bloody hell the OP would suck the life out of you.

Something positive emerges and it's just negativity and swipes at leaders (that we elected).

Total negativity.

Reads more like a comment on 'The Journal' than something for here.

fizzypish

BackToWinnipeg wrote: »

Silly idea.

As a software engineer for many years I noticed in university that many, many people just simply couldn't get their heads around it. The whole concept of OOP and how it relates to the real world just doesn't sit right with a lot of people.

Lol. Don't mention OOP. If a student asks nail them with a duster and carve the sign of the devil onto their forehead.

DredFX

GLaDOS wrote: »

Surely having the chance to get their head around it in school is preferable to signing up to a college course and then realising it's not for you?

This.

Studied software design for three years, entered the workplace for mandatory work experience, only to realise that I hated it. Went through the fourth year. Regretted every second of it.

Now, I'm stuck with a degree I don't want and job opportunities I despise. I have to spend the next two or three years working until I can accrue enough money to head back to college and do something I like.

ahlookit

Its going to take a lot of money for equipment, and a lot of goodwill from teachers.

Neither seem to be too plentiful at the moment.

jimgoose

murpho999 wrote: »

Bloody hell the OP would suck the life out of you.

Something positive emerges and it's just negativity and swipes at leaders (that we elected).

Total negativity.

Reads more like a comment on 'The Journal' than something for here.

My view on this is that it is misguided, misplaced and ineffective. Sodding about with someone's MFTL is about as much use as a grounding in Comp. Sci. as playing with Lego is for aeronautical engineering. It will be treated as the playtime that it effectively is.

DredFX wrote: »

This.

Studied software design for three years, entered the workplace for mandatory work experience, only to realise that I hated it. Went through the fourth year. Regretted every second of it.

Now, I'm stuck with a degree I don't want and job opportunities I despise. I have to spend the next two or three years working until I can accrue enough money to head back to college and do something I like.

If you don't mind my saying so chief, it took a while to figure out it wasn't for you? Couldn't you have changed courses after first year, or even sooner?

afatbollix

The UK has added this for 7 year olds! My wife who is a primary school teacher is able to keep up and teach the kids each week, She just needs to keep one step ahead like her other classes.

They will spend a year making a game and there are websites out there for schools to use these days. Its all very easy and basic. Knowing the Irish system this is what the 17 year olds will be doing!

pumpkin4life

murpho999 wrote: »

Bloody hell the OP would suck the life out of you.

Something positive emerges and it's just negativity and swipes at leaders (that we elected).

Total negativity.

Reads more like a comment on 'The Journal' than something for here.

When I was a wee pumpkin, the school had with resounding success, managed to make me despise topics as diverse and as interesting as English Literature, History, Religion, Physics and more. Took me years to realize that these subjects are interesting as fùck when left to your own devices and you don't have some moany four+ months of holidays benny of a teacher trying to make yes do the homework.

I'm sure that's a cynicism a lot of other people share as well, especially with something like coding.

Goya

jimgoose wrote: »

My view on this is that it is misguided, misplaced and ineffective. Sodding about with someone's MFTL is about as much use as a grounding in Comp. Sci. as playing with Lego is for aeronautical engineering. It will be treated as the playtime that it effectively is.

Why are you so sure of this though?

DredFX

jimgoose wrote: »

If you don't mind my saying so chief, it took a while to figure out it wasn't for you? Couldn't you have changed courses after first year, or even sooner?

You'd be surprised by how fulfilling the collegiate work is compared to the workplace.

Mileage varies, I suppose, but the passion hit a massive nosedive after work experience.

batistuta9

fizzypish wrote: »

Lol. Don't mention OOP. If a student asks nail them with a duster and carve the sign of the devil onto their forehead.

Teacher, explain inheritance again?
That's what you get when your father dies Johnny

jimgoose

Flimpson wrote: »

Why are you so sure of this though?

Because I am familiar with school environments, on the one hand, and I am also familiar with CoderDojo classes supervised by grizzled old UltraSPARC assembler heads like myself. They are very different animals.

GLaDOS

pumpkin4life wrote: »

When I was a wee pumpkin, the school had with resounding success, managed to make me despise topics as diverse and as interesting as English Literature, History, Religion, Physics and more. Took me years to realize that these subjects are interesting as fùck when left to your own devices and you don't have some moany four+ months of holidays benny of a teacher trying to make yes do the homework.

I'm sure that's a cynicism a lot of other people share as well, especially with something like coding.

It can work the opposite way too. I had fantastic biology teacher in school who gave me a real passion for the subject. I've since done my B.Sc and Ph.D in biology and have just started working as a clinical researcher.

I mean if the reason for not including it on the curriculum is "They won't teach it properly and will put the kids off", then why bother teaching anything at all?

BrokenArrows

jimgoose wrote: »

The latest stroke of genius from our Imperious Leaders appears to be teaching Computer Science for the Leaving Cert:

http://www.thejournal.ie/coding-irish-curriculum-3099021-Nov2016/

I think, rather than jumping on this latest "cool" bandwagon, diverting yet more attention and resources from the teaching of proper core knowledge and in the process giving teachers even more to complain about, it would be rather more in their line to try to reform the current ridiculous exam-passing machine approach to secondary education, and maybe add a US-style driver's education module to try to prevent youngsters from killing themselves be the dozen. I also resent the notion of our school curricula being influenced, even in small part, by some Segway-riding Californian twit who's just invented YASPL*.

What say ye?



* Yet Another Stupid Programming Language

Its not a bad idea in the least. There are a huge number of jobs out there what require more than a basic understanding of computing and learning the basics of software development is a good idea.

How many people picked software development at uni level without ever writing a line of code in their life? Quite a few id say and was probably followed by an early dropout. This will save the government money.

This will allow people to chose their career choice better.

At the very least it is better than our "computing" class which involved two classes a week of learning to type and/or use microsoft word.

miezekatze

I think this is well overdue. I went to school in another EU country and did my leaving cert in the late nineties. I had computer studies as a subject during my last 3 years or so in school, 2 years of that it was mandatory. We had really old PCs and no Internet connection at the time, but we learned to program in Pascal to give us a basic understanding of programming. I didn't think I'd like it or be any good at it, but I actually really enjoyed it and did one of my exams in programming in the end. I work in IT now, not really something I would have considered if I hadn't learned it in school. I did my degree in Ireland which also involved some programming and I was quite surprised when hardly any of the Irish students had ever done it before. It's really something that everyone should have a basic understanding of imo.

pumpkin4life

GLaDOS wrote: »

It can work the opposite way too. I had fantastic biology teacher in school who gave me a real passion for the subject. I've since done my B.Sc and Ph.D in biology and have just started working as a clinical researcher.

I mean if the reason for not including it on the curriculum is "They won't teach it properly and will put the kids off", then why bother teaching anything at all?

Yeah, fair enough.

Coding, I'd imagine in terms of syllabus is far easier to fùck up than say, history. Also because very few people actually have the aptitude to code in the first place. Be chasing those lads away.

Also, the lads who are good coders are the ones who are almost left feck off and do it themselves, personality or temperament wise.

talking_walnut

pumpkin4life wrote: »

When I was a wee pumpkin, the school had with resounding success, managed to make me despise topics as diverse and as interesting as English Literature, History, Religion, Physics and more. Took me years to realize that these subjects are interesting as fùck when left to your own devices and you don't have some moany four+ months of holidays benny of a teacher trying to make yes do the homework.

I'm sure that's a cynicism a lot of other people share as well, especially with something like coding.

Should schools stop teaching all subjects since they might put some kids off???

Are people complaining about the quality of schools or the fact that they're introducing coding as a subject in the LC?

Also, the lads who are good coders are the ones who are almost left feck off and do it themselves, personality or temperament wise.

True of everything in life I'd say. The guys in school that were best at math were the ones that were into it and did it off their own bat. Same with English, etc.

DredFX

talking_walnut wrote: »

Are people complaining about the quality of schools or the fact that they're introducing coding as a subject in the LC?

Mostly the former, which could certainly strain the benefits of the latter.

I hope it won't become some afterthought like some subjects (Irish) are, where it's more about memorising the mundane than learning how to use them.

"Yes, sir, I know what int and boolean variables are. Yes, miss, I can recite the printIncome function from the Java textbook."