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"Coding" in schools...

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    #122
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,184 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Yes but I am trying to keep my expectations realistic. The best we can hope for is incremental improvements.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #123
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #124
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,178 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    course it is:rolleyes:

    Laffer Curve. Computer Science is the Science of Computation, and has no more to do with computers than Automotive Engineering has to do with the Vise-Grip. Ability through effort, Grasshopper - the Man is the Weapon.


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    #125
    bobomollard
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭bobomollard


    Good idea but the government will make an absolute arse of it with too much theory instead of hands on work.


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    #126
    Radiosonde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Radiosonde


    Yourself isit wrote: »
    It would be a strong agument against them being geography teachers.

    Yeah, what's your point? Do you think that if the Dept introduces computer science as a subject, it will somehow, unlike all the other Leaving Certificate subjects, be taught by teachers who haven't studied it?


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    #127
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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    #128
    bobomollard
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭bobomollard


    I would say they'll have some bull crap curriculum and would be very little hands on work.

    They'll be well aware if its anything practical they can just pay someone to do it.


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    #129
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    I suspect this glib faddism will be put on the back burner when the rubber hits the road and the practicalities of implementing any reasonable computer science or programming curriculum in schools are realised.

    Many schools currently struggle to have sufficient resources to properly teach science in a practical manner. A significant number of schools lack adequate broadband connectivity and our national broadband plan is behind schedule and still deferred.

    Once the initial capital cost, ongoing operational and maintenance costs, lifecycle and equipment replacement costs are determined I can't see this kite flying very high.

    While some of our third level institutions are chronically underfunded and have to make do with outdated computer equipment it seems populist nonsense to suggest computer science or programming should or could be properly taught at second level.

    I may be getting old and cynical but when recent governments have not adequately funded science in 2nd level and continue to chronically underfund 3rd level I have to be a bit sceptical.


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    #130
    Radiosonde
    Closed Accounts Posts: 613 ✭✭✭Radiosonde


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    The report proposing this also recommends "ensuring that teachers have specific qualifications related to the subjects they are teaching."

    Anyhow, it's less likely to be a problem with an optional subject. If your school doesn't have a qualified computer science teacher, or classics teacher, or Italian teacher, then you don't offer those subjects. Even if your school doesn't have enough qualified maths teachers, you still have to schedule maths classes for all pupils.


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    #131
    Grayson
    Registered Users Posts: 16,185 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I've got a degree in Maths and Philosophy. I did it because it was the closest I could get to a problem solving degree. I did a lot of game theory and stuff like that. I also did a HDip in Computer science afterwards. I flew through a lot of the stuff about algorithms and data structures.

    Conversely teaching stuff like algorithms to kids will teach them a lot of abstract problem solving skills. It's not the perfect way to teach them that stuff but it's better than nothing. Teaching coding is moving forward.


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    #132
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    Grayson wrote: »
    I've got a degree in Maths and Philosophy. I did it because it was the closest I could get to a problem solving degree. I did a lot of game theory and stuff like that. I also did a HDip in Computer science afterwards. I flew through a lot of the stuff about algorithms and data structures.

    Conversely teaching stuff like algorithms to kids will teach them a lot of abstract problem solving skills. It's not the perfect way to teach them that stuff but it's better than nothing. Teaching coding is moving forward.

    That's fine as long as its part of a well rounded education.

    Schools should not be drone factories for multinational corporations.


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    #133
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,178 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Grayson wrote: »
    I've got a degree in Maths and Philosophy. I did it because it was the closest I could get to a problem solving degree. I did a lot of game theory and stuff like that. I also did a HDip in Computer science afterwards. I flew through a lot of the stuff about algorithms and data structures.

    Conversely teaching stuff like algorithms to kids will teach them a lot of abstract problem solving skills. It's not the perfect way to teach them that stuff but it's better than nothing. Teaching coding is moving forward.

    http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/story-of-mel.html


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    #134
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    I suspect this glib faddism will be put on the back burner when the rubber hits the road and the practicalities of implementing any reasonable computer science or programming curriculum in schools are realised.

    Many schools currently struggle to have sufficient resources to properly teach science in a practical manner. A significant number of schools lack adequate broadband connectivity and our national broadband plan is behind schedule and still deferred.

    Once the initial capital cost, ongoing operational and maintenance costs, lifecycle and equipment replacement costs are determined I can't see this kite flying very high.

    While some of our third level institutions are chronically underfunded and have to make do with outdated computer equipment it seems populist nonsense to suggest computer science or programming should or could be properly taught at second level.

    I may be getting old and cynical but when recent governments have not adequately funded science in 2nd level and continue to chronically underfund 3rd level I have to be a bit sceptical.

    Well this is it exactly. There aren't the resources at any level.

    Even if there were, not everyone (Kids or teachers) has the aptitude to code. TBH a lot programmers are terrible at it.Boards is a very computer literate user group. The real world isn't the same.


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    #135
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,723 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    Cause education is all about training people for jobs and entrepreneurship...


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    #136
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,184 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    beauf wrote: »
    Well this is it exactly. There aren't the resources at any level.

    Even if there were, not everyone (Kids or teachers) has the aptitude to code. TBH a lot programmers are terrible at it.Boards is a very computer literate user group. The real world isn't the same.

    I don't see what this has to do with everything. How many have the aptitude to have religion or Irish crammed down their throats? What about history? Ireland, like many Western nations has a one-size-fits-all approach to education. Frankly, this should have been done a long time ago and as for resources, someone might want to look into taking that greedy teachers union down to size. They might find a lot more resources come available.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #137
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    I think at lot of the skill shortage is companies lack of training their own staff. They want someone else to pay for the training that they should be doing themselves.


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    #138
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I don't see what this has to do with everything. How many have the aptitude to have religion or Irish crammed down their throats? What about history? Ireland, like many Western nations has a one-size-fits-all approach to education. Frankly, this should have been done a long time ago and as for resources, someone might want to look into taking that greedy teachers union down to size. They might find a lot more resources come available.

    I don't get your point. We shouldn't have a one size fits all, but we should have a one size fits all to coding.

    Because my point is one size does not fit all when it comes to coding. You seem to be inferring I meant the exact opposite.

    Arguing about doing a language or history, or religion is a different thing entirely. That will only derail the thread.


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    #139
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,184 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    beauf wrote: »
    I don't get your point. We shouldn't have a one size fits all, but we should have a one size fits all to coding.

    No. We have a one size fits all approach in general. Children are educated in groups.
    beauf wrote: »
    Arguing about doing a language or history, or religion is a different thing entirely. That will only derail the thread.

    It isn't. You said some will lack the aptitude but that's true of any subject. The best compromise is to pick the most useful.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #140
    batistuta9
    Registered Users Posts: 8,134 ✭✭✭batistuta9


    Somebody's going to make a ton out of this, writing a few simple programs that the teachers can use.
    Maybe even write them on the blackboard so the students can copy :D

    If this part of a CS subject how much code would they really be doing?
    Programming isn't like other subjects either, its all built upon. you can't pick and choose what to do like in the others.
    ie, skip the equations & do the sets.


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    #141
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    fizzypish wrote: »
    Not a bad idea. I think pseudo code instead of specific language would be best. Also, teach ECDL properly. MS office is the industry standard (from my working experience). If you want to be broad basic DOS and UNIX navigation. Defiantly needs to be an optional subject though. Can't force people to learn this **** if they're not interested. If you want to be a sadist force them to do a report in LaTeX.

    ECDL? Are you kidding? Is that thing even still going?

    It was the greatest bureaucratic scam ever launched

    The problem with this kind of thing is, while there are plenty of great examples of how IT subjects can be taught well in primary schools, it will be implemented by a bunch of clueless gob****es in a manner that will make it useless and utterly obsolete in no time


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    #142
    Zaph
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 47,294 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    In theory, a great idea. In practice, some little scrote with a grudge is going to code Skynet and humanity will cease to exist shortly afterwards.


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    #143
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,184 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    beauf wrote: »
    I think at lot of the skill shortage is companies lack of training their own staff. They want someone else to pay for the training that they should be doing themselves.

    I don't buy this at all. Manufacturing for example has been revolutionised compared to what it was a few decades ago. The only such jobs remaining are highly skilled. There's a reason employers are asking for degrees. If they could take someone on and train them up in a few weeks then it'd make their lives easier.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #144
    DredFX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 287 ✭✭DredFX


    Zaph wrote: »
    In theory, a great idea. In practice, some little scrote with a grudge is going to code Skynet and humanity will cease to exist shortly afterwards.

    "Sir, it's been decades of gruelling work but we've finally traced the origin of the Skynet code."
    "Excellent job, Carlton. Where is it?"
    "The community college in Roscommon, sir."


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    #145
    andekwarhola
    Registered Users Posts: 4,638 ✭✭✭andekwarhola


    It has good worth as an optional subject.

    Not all students have the aptitude and interest in programming and it would be beyond tedious and not useful to those that don't.


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    #146
    siblers
    Registered Users Posts: 12,433 ✭✭✭✭siblers


    I studied computer science for 4 years as a mature student, in first year, we had a load of students straight from school, everyone of them (except for one girl) failed the course, most of them hadn't a clue about computing or programming and they picked the course because they were interested in computers as a hobby.

    Exposing students to programming in school will be hugely beneficial to giving them an insight into programming and the various modules involved and they can then base a decision on their own experiences.


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    #147
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    No. We have a one size fits all approach in general. Children are educated in groups.

    ...And....?
    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    It isn't. You said some will lack the aptitude but that's true of any subject. The best compromise is to pick the most useful.

    No I said most will lack the aptitude. If we were taking about general IT skills, then I might have said some. But coding is a specialized area, most will not be good at it.


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    #148
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    I don't buy this at all. Manufacturing for example has been revolutionised compared to what it was a few decades ago. The only such jobs remaining are highly skilled. There's a reason employers are asking for degrees. If they could take someone on and train them up in a few weeks then it'd make their lives easier.

    Actually they want people with a degree and a few years of experience, and usually in a specific area, even many years of job experience. Anyone who thinks that just happens on its own (or in a few weeks or months) is a fantasist.

    There is a cost to that experience, skill-set. Most aren't willing to pay or invest in it. The schools will not churn out programmers.


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    #149
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,184 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    beauf wrote: »
    There is a cost to that experience, skill-set. Most aren't willing to pay or invest in it. The schools will not churn out programmers.

    My point still stands. Gone are the days when you could wander into a plant, learn to use a welder and begin attaching doors to cars

    Schools might not turn out programmers but it's a useful skill to have and at least they'll get a taste for it.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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    #150
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    andekwarhola wrote: »
    It has good worth as an optional subject.

    Not all students have the aptitude and interest in programming and it would be beyond tedious and not useful to those that don't.

    I'd agree.

    You could argue that many colleges aren't turning out suitable (industry ready) graduates either. The reason for that isn't that they needed to do coding in schools.


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    #151
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    My point still stands. Gone are the days when you could wander into a plant, learn to use a welder and begin attaching doors to cars

    Schools might not turn out programmers but it's a useful skill to have and at least they'll get a taste for it.

    It won't be skill. It will be years of torture they will forget the moment they can drop the subject. It will the same as any other subject in that regard. Most people are bored to tears with coding. Even of those working in IT only a minority will be interested in coding.


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