"Coding" in schools...

jimgoose

Giblet wrote: »

What's the other way.

http://catb.org/esr/writings/unix-koans/methodology-consultant.html

Giblet

BackToWinnipeg wrote: »

Silly idea.

As a software engineer for many years I noticed in university that many, many people just simply couldn't get their heads around it.

They probably regret choosing it as a course then right?

GLaDOS

BackToWinnipeg wrote: »

Silly idea.

As a software engineer for many years I noticed in university that many, many people just simply couldn't get their heads around it. The whole concept of OOP and how it relates to the real world just doesn't sit right with a lot of people.

If you want to become a developer, then go to college and learn when you are older and might have some interest in it. Most kids won't be able to grasp the concept and will end up hating it.

Surely having the chance to get their head around it in school is preferable to signing up to a college course and then realising it's not for you?

murpho999

Bloody hell the OP would suck the life out of you.

Something positive emerges and it's just negativity and swipes at leaders (that we elected).

Total negativity.

Reads more like a comment on 'The Journal' than something for here.

fizzypish

BackToWinnipeg wrote: »

Silly idea.

As a software engineer for many years I noticed in university that many, many people just simply couldn't get their heads around it. The whole concept of OOP and how it relates to the real world just doesn't sit right with a lot of people.

Lol. Don't mention OOP. If a student asks nail them with a duster and carve the sign of the devil onto their forehead.

DredFX

GLaDOS wrote: »

Surely having the chance to get their head around it in school is preferable to signing up to a college course and then realising it's not for you?

This.

Studied software design for three years, entered the workplace for mandatory work experience, only to realise that I hated it. Went through the fourth year. Regretted every second of it.

Now, I'm stuck with a degree I don't want and job opportunities I despise. I have to spend the next two or three years working until I can accrue enough money to head back to college and do something I like.

ahlookit

Its going to take a lot of money for equipment, and a lot of goodwill from teachers.

Neither seem to be too plentiful at the moment.

jimgoose

murpho999 wrote: »

Bloody hell the OP would suck the life out of you.

Something positive emerges and it's just negativity and swipes at leaders (that we elected).

Total negativity.

Reads more like a comment on 'The Journal' than something for here.

My view on this is that it is misguided, misplaced and ineffective. Sodding about with someone's MFTL is about as much use as a grounding in Comp. Sci. as playing with Lego is for aeronautical engineering. It will be treated as the playtime that it effectively is.

DredFX wrote: »

This.

Studied software design for three years, entered the workplace for mandatory work experience, only to realise that I hated it. Went through the fourth year. Regretted every second of it.

Now, I'm stuck with a degree I don't want and job opportunities I despise. I have to spend the next two or three years working until I can accrue enough money to head back to college and do something I like.

If you don't mind my saying so chief, it took a while to figure out it wasn't for you? Couldn't you have changed courses after first year, or even sooner?

afatbollix

The UK has added this for 7 year olds! My wife who is a primary school teacher is able to keep up and teach the kids each week, She just needs to keep one step ahead like her other classes.

They will spend a year making a game and there are websites out there for schools to use these days. Its all very easy and basic. Knowing the Irish system this is what the 17 year olds will be doing!

pumpkin4life

murpho999 wrote: »

Bloody hell the OP would suck the life out of you.

Something positive emerges and it's just negativity and swipes at leaders (that we elected).

Total negativity.

Reads more like a comment on 'The Journal' than something for here.

When I was a wee pumpkin, the school had with resounding success, managed to make me despise topics as diverse and as interesting as English Literature, History, Religion, Physics and more. Took me years to realize that these subjects are interesting as fùck when left to your own devices and you don't have some moany four+ months of holidays benny of a teacher trying to make yes do the homework.

I'm sure that's a cynicism a lot of other people share as well, especially with something like coding.

Goya

jimgoose wrote: »

My view on this is that it is misguided, misplaced and ineffective. Sodding about with someone's MFTL is about as much use as a grounding in Comp. Sci. as playing with Lego is for aeronautical engineering. It will be treated as the playtime that it effectively is.

Why are you so sure of this though?

DredFX

jimgoose wrote: »

If you don't mind my saying so chief, it took a while to figure out it wasn't for you? Couldn't you have changed courses after first year, or even sooner?

You'd be surprised by how fulfilling the collegiate work is compared to the workplace.

Mileage varies, I suppose, but the passion hit a massive nosedive after work experience.

batistuta9

fizzypish wrote: »

Lol. Don't mention OOP. If a student asks nail them with a duster and carve the sign of the devil onto their forehead.

Teacher, explain inheritance again?
That's what you get when your father dies Johnny

jimgoose

Flimpson wrote: »

Why are you so sure of this though?

Because I am familiar with school environments, on the one hand, and I am also familiar with CoderDojo classes supervised by grizzled old UltraSPARC assembler heads like myself. They are very different animals.

GLaDOS

pumpkin4life wrote: »

When I was a wee pumpkin, the school had with resounding success, managed to make me despise topics as diverse and as interesting as English Literature, History, Religion, Physics and more. Took me years to realize that these subjects are interesting as fùck when left to your own devices and you don't have some moany four+ months of holidays benny of a teacher trying to make yes do the homework.

I'm sure that's a cynicism a lot of other people share as well, especially with something like coding.

It can work the opposite way too. I had fantastic biology teacher in school who gave me a real passion for the subject. I've since done my B.Sc and Ph.D in biology and have just started working as a clinical researcher.

I mean if the reason for not including it on the curriculum is "They won't teach it properly and will put the kids off", then why bother teaching anything at all?

BrokenArrows

jimgoose wrote: »

The latest stroke of genius from our Imperious Leaders appears to be teaching Computer Science for the Leaving Cert:

http://www.thejournal.ie/coding-irish-curriculum-3099021-Nov2016/

I think, rather than jumping on this latest "cool" bandwagon, diverting yet more attention and resources from the teaching of proper core knowledge and in the process giving teachers even more to complain about, it would be rather more in their line to try to reform the current ridiculous exam-passing machine approach to secondary education, and maybe add a US-style driver's education module to try to prevent youngsters from killing themselves be the dozen. I also resent the notion of our school curricula being influenced, even in small part, by some Segway-riding Californian twit who's just invented YASPL*.

What say ye?



* Yet Another Stupid Programming Language

Its not a bad idea in the least. There are a huge number of jobs out there what require more than a basic understanding of computing and learning the basics of software development is a good idea.

How many people picked software development at uni level without ever writing a line of code in their life? Quite a few id say and was probably followed by an early dropout. This will save the government money.

This will allow people to chose their career choice better.

At the very least it is better than our "computing" class which involved two classes a week of learning to type and/or use microsoft word.

miezekatze

I think this is well overdue. I went to school in another EU country and did my leaving cert in the late nineties. I had computer studies as a subject during my last 3 years or so in school, 2 years of that it was mandatory. We had really old PCs and no Internet connection at the time, but we learned to program in Pascal to give us a basic understanding of programming. I didn't think I'd like it or be any good at it, but I actually really enjoyed it and did one of my exams in programming in the end. I work in IT now, not really something I would have considered if I hadn't learned it in school. I did my degree in Ireland which also involved some programming and I was quite surprised when hardly any of the Irish students had ever done it before. It's really something that everyone should have a basic understanding of imo.

pumpkin4life

GLaDOS wrote: »

It can work the opposite way too. I had fantastic biology teacher in school who gave me a real passion for the subject. I've since done my B.Sc and Ph.D in biology and have just started working as a clinical researcher.

I mean if the reason for not including it on the curriculum is "They won't teach it properly and will put the kids off", then why bother teaching anything at all?

Yeah, fair enough.

Coding, I'd imagine in terms of syllabus is far easier to fùck up than say, history. Also because very few people actually have the aptitude to code in the first place. Be chasing those lads away.

Also, the lads who are good coders are the ones who are almost left feck off and do it themselves, personality or temperament wise.

talking_walnut

pumpkin4life wrote: »

When I was a wee pumpkin, the school had with resounding success, managed to make me despise topics as diverse and as interesting as English Literature, History, Religion, Physics and more. Took me years to realize that these subjects are interesting as fùck when left to your own devices and you don't have some moany four+ months of holidays benny of a teacher trying to make yes do the homework.

I'm sure that's a cynicism a lot of other people share as well, especially with something like coding.

Should schools stop teaching all subjects since they might put some kids off???

Are people complaining about the quality of schools or the fact that they're introducing coding as a subject in the LC?

Also, the lads who are good coders are the ones who are almost left feck off and do it themselves, personality or temperament wise.

True of everything in life I'd say. The guys in school that were best at math were the ones that were into it and did it off their own bat. Same with English, etc.

DredFX

talking_walnut wrote: »

Are people complaining about the quality of schools or the fact that they're introducing coding as a subject in the LC?

Mostly the former, which could certainly strain the benefits of the latter.

I hope it won't become some afterthought like some subjects (Irish) are, where it's more about memorising the mundane than learning how to use them.

"Yes, sir, I know what int and boolean variables are. Yes, miss, I can recite the printIncome function from the Java textbook."

frozenfrozen

I can just imagine classrooms full of children having to stand up and recite lines of code the same way we were forced to recite prayers at the start and end of every class in primary school, or learning off the poems.

jimgoose

frozenfrozen wrote: »

I can just imagine classrooms full of children having to stand up and recite lines of code the same way we were forced to recite prayers at the start and end of every class in primary school, or learning off the poems.

"public static void foo()!" "Lord graciously HEAR us!!" :pac:

talking_walnut

DredFX wrote: »

Mostly the former, which could certainly strain the benefits of the latter.

I hope it won't become some afterthought like some subjects (Irish) are, where it's more about memorising the mundane than learning how to use them.

"Yes, sir, I know what int and boolean variables are. Yes, miss, I can recite the printIncome function from the Java textbook."

Sounds like my college Java exams

fizzypish

talking_walnut wrote: »

Sounds like my college Java exams

Always made me laugh having a written coding exam. Of course it could make sense to have a written exam but not when said exam involved writing a page of code that would be marked for syntax. That lecturer was a twat.

SimonTemplar

Overall a good idea. One important point is having a coding subject does not mean every pupil leaving secondary school will be able to write software.

There are some people, very intelligent people, who simply don't have the skillset or aptitude for coding. Learning the code syntax is one thing but applying that code to a problem and creating a solution is a talent that some people simply don't have. I've seen it first hand - people who are very smart in one field unable to code the simpliest of solutions

What I hope will happen from this initiative is that pupils who have an untapped or unrealised coding aptitude will discover they have a bright future in IT when previously they were unsure what career to persue.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

BrokenArrows

jimgoose wrote: »

"public static void foo()!" "Lord graciously HEAR us!!" :pac:

string.Format("And the lord said onto thee, {0}", "Hello World");

try
{
    var Coat = CoatFactory.Create("Wool", "Linen");
}
catch(BlendedFabricsException)
{
    Log("Deuteronomy 22:9–11 commands, 'Do not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together.' ");
}

jimgoose

fizzypish wrote: »

...writing a page of code that would be marked for syntax. That lecturer was a twat.

Didn't Dennis Ritchie or someone solve the whole parsing conundrum some while back?? :pac:

Wanderer78

It's time to ditch half the syllabus and start showing kids how to look after themselves both physically and mentally, and stop this recite, regurgitate crap

kerryked

Always makes me laugh when I see Enda and the boys talk about how every child in the country will be "coding" in school.

I think the curriculum for this subject would need some very careful planning and a lot of research and consultation with professionals, colleges etc. Learning to "code" probably isn't the best route to go down. Teaching children how to navigate a filesystem and create a directory that is tidy would, imo, be a good place to start.

But at least this is finally on the table, hopefully it will be implemented correctly and be of the most benefit to students