Reforms to Free Travel Scheme

AndrewJRenko

n97 mini wrote: »

The health service here provides medical cards, so the cost to the end user is comparable to the UK (i.e. very little or free).

If you're in employment at all here, you will not quality for a medical card unless you have the most profound levels of disability. So you are faced with paying for a whole host of supplies, equipment and services that UK peers would not have to pay for.

And even if you have a medical card, you find yourself at the back of a very long queue for services like speech therapy, occupational therapy and provision of supplies. It is far from a like for like comparison.

n97 mini

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

If you're in employment at all here, you will not quality for a medical card unless you have the most profound levels of disability. So you are faced with paying for a whole host of supplies, equipment and services that UK peers would not have to pay for.

There is a large overlap between people who have an FTP and who have a medical card. Around half the population is covered by a medical card.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And even if you have a medical card, you find yourself at the back of a very long queue for services like speech therapy, occupational therapy and provision of supplies. It is far from a like for like comparison.

I compared cost only.

In addition being covered by a medical card (e.g. by a parent's card) here gets you a lot of things which are not related to health. e.g. free school transport, no Junior or Leaving Cert fees, no tuition fees for PLC courses, and so on.

Edups2.0

n97 mini wrote: »

There is a large overlap between people who have an FTP and who have a medical card. Around half the population is covered by a medical card.



I compared cost only.

In addition being covered by a medical card (e.g. by a parent's card) here gets you a lot of things which are not related to health. e.g. free school transport, no Junior or Leaving Cert fees, no tuition fees for PLC courses, and so on.

Eh you still pay.

Bray Head

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

You mentioned the lower cost of living, but you didn't put a number on it. You didn't mention healthcare, and you didn't put a number on it. You didn't mention issues like the cost and provision of appliances, like wheelchairs or walking frames or computer software or hardware needed to communicate. You didn't mention the costs of supplies like incontinence pads, special shoes or other clothing, and even the costs of waste disposal. You didn't mention social care services provided by UK local authorities, and how these impact lives for people for disabilities, particularly those that provide personal budgets.

UK and Ireland are very different environments for people with disabilities.

I specifically mentioned the payments for pensioners and jobseekers, not for those on disability, where quite frankly I don't feel qualified to comment.

Bray Head

Emme wrote: »

That is not true. The cost of living in rural Ireland is just as high as in Dublin. I have lived in Dublin and I live in rural Ireland now. Indeed many things are more expensive in rural Ireland because there is no competition and suppliers can charge what they like.

Except for housing, which is the single biggest component of household expenditure.

Price per square metre in Leitrim is about a quarter of central Dublin.

murphaph

Edups2.0 wrote: »

Ah yes you're one of those "you don't look disabled you must be grand to work!". I'm not even getting into the pensioners argument. Pampered on 230 a week... **** me.

Don't be coy. 230 plus living alone allowance plus FTP plus medical card plus fuel allowance. Pensioners suffered no reductions in benefits at all during the crisis and the vast vast majority have no rent or mortgage to pay. Pensioners have at no time on our country's history had it so good. €996 a month is a generous state pension by western European standards by the way. In the UK it's currently €798. I'd wager that there are huge numbers of working people with less disposable income than your average pensioner in fact.

The FT scheme should be reformed. The numbers of valid passes in circulation are mind boggling.

Edups2.0

murphaph wrote: »

Don't be coy. 230 plus living alone allowance plus FTP plus medical card plus fuel allowance. Pensioners suffered no reductions in benefits at all during the crisis and the vast vast majority have no rent or mortgage to pay. Pensioners have at no time on our country's history had it so good. €996 a month is a generous state pension by western European standards by the way. In the UK it's currently €798. I'd wager that there are huge numbers of working people with less disposable income than your average pensioner in fact.

The FT scheme should be reformed. The numbers of valid passes in circulation are mind boggling.

Right.. so assuming you get full rate pension, plus living alone allowance you're on a staggering 242 per week. In Ireland on minimum wage you'd need to work just 26 hours a week to make that. We'll even say 30 hours, just to account for tax deductions.

Fuel allowance is only from October to March and barely covers a weeks worth of fuel, you'll probably get a bag of coal and a few brickets. If you've heating oil then god help you.

Some pensioners do even have their pension taxed. And your main argument seems to be "well you know other countries give them less!" So what? American waiting staff get paid about $4 an hour and the rest of their income is tips. Should we drop the minimum wage to €4?

The Free Travel System is not some abused system that everyone with a pass uses all day everyday just because they can. Most elderly people wouldn't be able for the bus that often and may only use it for appointments, heading out for a day to do some shopping and whatever else.

I have a FTP, I used it twice yesterday, to go to town and to come home from town. I need to use it again today, to travel into town and home again, overall that costs the taxpayer about 8 Euro. The average subsidy from the government for even paying customers is more than that. Of course I wouldn't want you upset, so if you'd like I'd send you a cheque for the money I would have spent on the bus ticket was I not qualified for a pass, so then you're tax money isn't wasted.

Prior to the use of the PSC, paper passes were abused for a long time, with stolen or lost passes being used by anyone who wanted and even people giving passes to their friends to use. My cousin asked me once could he use my pass (I refused) but for every one person who said no there was 10 people saying yes.

While it may be shocking to believe, but even the 2.50 charge I get for prescription often leaves me unable to pay for meds for a few days longer than if it was free, and I've been given prescriptions not on the medical card which I've had to go without because I couldn't afford the cost. I'm not living a cushy life on 188 euro pw with the 20 euro fuel allowance and FTP, I'm just getting by. I don't live in a city either, so my rents cheap enough and I do get rent allowance. But to hear people who live on 3-4 times as much a week as I do and people just as unlucky as me to have a work affecting disability stand on their soapbox shouting us down as lazy and faking it, it's disgusting and upsetting.

I WISH I could work. I wish having and keeping a job wasn't difficult, but it is. And contrary to what you or anyone else might think you don't just apply for DA because you got a paper cut or twisted your ankle.

The OAP on the other side they have likely all worked their lifetime and deserve what they are receiving it's barely keeping most of them going and to suggest they should be cut further is disgraceful. You'll be on a pension yourself at sometime please god and you'll be crying out for help and hoping the government don't take away anymore entitlements from you. Regardless of what other countries give welfare or pension recipients this is Ireland, and quite frankly if you don't like it, leave, to be frank.

foggy_lad

murphaph wrote: »

Don't be coy. 230 plus living alone allowance plus FTP plus medical card plus fuel allowance. Pensioners suffered no reductions in benefits at all during the crisis and the vast vast majority have no rent or mortgage to pay. Pensioners have at no time on our country's history had it so good. €996 a month is a generous state pension by western European standards by the way. In the UK it's currently €798. I'd wager that there are huge numbers of working people with less disposable income than your average pensioner in fact.

The FT scheme should be reformed. The numbers of valid passes in circulation are mind boggling.

Not all pensioners have their own homes and not all are living in a comfortable environment! Many spend a fortune on heating because they live in some dingy sh1thole and they don't have the means to move up in the world! Many have to get a taxi to the local bus stop or get friends or relatives to drop them off as they are miles away from the local bus stop. Many are living in rented accommodation and are only a few steps from homelessness like so many others in Ireland!

The grass is not always greener on the other side!

murphaph

Crazy. We're told by the experts on here that pensioners barely make use of the FTP but any mention of a nominal fare (say 50c) to cut out needless journeys and there's uproar claiming this will cause mass starvation of our senior citizens. Can't have it both ways folks. It would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.

Edups2.0

murphaph wrote: »

Crazy. We're told by the experts on here that pensioners barely make use of the FTP but any mention of a nominal fare (say 50c) to cut out needless journeys and there's uproar claiming this will cause mass starvation of our senior citizens. Can't have it both ways folks. It would be laughable if it wasn't so serious.

Oh cop on to yourself. No one said it would cause starvation it's a stupid idea that would leave some pensioners struggling. 50c sounds like nothing until you've got hardly any money.

n97 mini

Edups2.0 wrote: »

Eh you still pay.

Pupils who are eligible for school transport (see above) and who hold a valid medical card are entitled to free school transport to the nearest school.

From:
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/primary_and_post_primary_education/going_to_post_primary_school/school_transport.html

n97 mini

Emme wrote: »

That is not true. The cost of living in rural Ireland is just as high as in Dublin. I have lived in Dublin and I live in rural Ireland now. Indeed many things are more expensive in rural Ireland because there is no competition and suppliers can charge what they like.

Rent or the cost of buying a property are far higher.

From:
https://www.daft.ie/report/ronan-lyons-2016q1-rental

lawlolawl

How come all these pensioners who "worked their whole life and paid taxes" only have a mere €230 per week income to live on?

Did they simply not bother to make any provisions themselves for their retirement during their long, illustrious careers? Did they piss away every penny they made in 35+ years of working and paying taxes?

Let's stop acting like most pensioners are poor, cash strapped crayturs and actually start means testing some of the benefits they receive.

Cookie_Monster

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There could be a whole pile of reasons for this. Maybe people with disabilities are more assertive about their entitlements, maybe more of them are getting out of residential institutions, maybe Government has pushed more people off the dole onto disability so they can claim that unemployment is falling.

You've chosen one possible explanation that suits your argument.

so if it is all valid, why is it not being researched. It's a massive screaming issue for Irelands population if valid. How and why rates are so high and increasing so fast should be a major priority to be figured out. Why is it not happening then?

Del.Monte

lawlolawl wrote: »

How come all these pensioners who "worked their whole life and paid taxes" only have a mere €230 per week income to live on?

Did they simply not bother to make any provisions themselves for their retirement during their long, illustrious careers? Did they piss away every penny they made in 35+ years of working and paying taxes?

Let's stop acting like most pensioners are poor, cash strapped crayturs and actually start means testing some of the benefits they receive.

It may come as a surprise to you but many pensioners aren't living high on the hog.

n97 mini

Del.Monte wrote: »

It may come as a surprise to you but many pensioners aren't living high on the hog.

Many have good pensions, especially those on defined benefit schemes. For example the top 500 public service pensions average €100k a year.

Del.Monte

n97 mini wrote: »

Many have good pensions, especially those on defined benefit schemes. For example the top 500 public service pensions average €100k a year.

I wonder how many of them would deign to slum it with the proletariat on public transport?

murphaph

Edups2.0 wrote: »

Oh cop on to yourself. No one said it would cause starvation it's a stupid idea that would leave some pensioners struggling. 50c sounds like nothing until you've got hardly any money.

There are loads of working people with less disposable income than your average pensioner but nobody cares about them. The only stupid thing here is your refusal to accept that the free travel scheme is an out of control monster with far too many passes in valid circulation given the total population. It's a Ponzi scheme if ever I saw one.

Vic_08

n97 mini wrote: »

Rent or the cost of buying a property are far higher.

From:
https://www.daft.ie/report/ronan-lyons-2016q1-rental

You are forgetting that such prosaic concerns such as being subject to open market rental rates doesn't apply to the social welfare classes, they get housing payments on top of their basic welfare. If they get on the subsidised property ladder in Dublin rather than a cheaper region, sure no problem, the DSP just pay more from the endless SW money tree.

Edups2.0

Vic_08 wrote: »

You are forgetting that such prosaic concerns such as being subject to open market rental rates doesn't apply to the social welfare classes, they get housing payments on top of their basic welfare.

Beyond a set limit rent allowance is not paid. In Dublin a single person renting cannot exceed 660pm. A couple can't exceed 900 and a family with one child can't exceed 1250. The rents for most counties as of late go far beyond these limits. Don't cut about like people on rent allowance can't just go rent themselves a mansion in the hills for 5 grand a month and have the DSP pay for it.

n97 mini

Edups2.0 wrote: »

Beyond a set limit rent allowance is not paid. In Dublin a single person renting cannot exceed 660pm. A couple can't exceed 900 and a family with one child can't exceed 1250. The rents for most counties as of late go far beyond these limits. Don't cut about like people on rent allowance can't just go rent themselves a mansion in the hills for 5 grand a month and have the DSP pay for it.

You're backing up my point, which is that outside of Dublin and the main urban areas the cost of living from lower rent/mortgages is substantially cheaper.

For a couple or single parent with 3 children, for example:
Roscommon: Average rent 473 with maximum rent limit set by DSP of 550
Fingal: Average rent 1365 with maximum rent limit set by DSP of 1200 (and I'm being kind by picking one of the cheaper Dublin areas)

As regards single people in Dublin, the vast majority should be sharing, hence the lower limit.