Reforms to Free Travel Scheme

joeysoap

Gael23 wrote: »

I'm on Disability Allowance and day to day I don't have to use my pass at rush hour but 2 years ago I had a health setback which required me to go to a hospital clinic twice a week, taking a 9am bus. It's unrealistic and unenforceable to restrict usage to off peak hours.

I agree, but pensioners (me ) should have enough cop on not to travel peak unless absolutely necessary.

Cookie_Monster

Gael23 wrote: »

I'm on Disability Allowance and day to day I don't have to use my pass at rush hour but 2 years ago I had a health setback which required me to go to a hospital clinic twice a week, taking a 9am bus. It's unrealistic and unenforceable to restrict usage to off peak hours.

why?, you can still get a bus, you'd just have to pay for it...
that's how it was until fairly recently sure.

Edups2.0

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why?, you can still get a bus, you'd just have to pay for it...
that's how it was until fairly recently sure.

When you live on 188 euro paying for a bus is not easy. It's easy to say this when you're not living on that kind of money trying to pay rent and bills.

Gael23

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why?, you can still get a bus, you'd just have to pay for it...
that's how it was until fairly recently sure.

During all that I would have spent €40 a week on transport without my pass. I wouldn't have gone ahead with that treatment without it to be honest.

Sam Russell

Gael23 wrote: »

I'm on Disability Allowance and day to day I don't have to use my pass at rush hour but 2 years ago I had a health setback which required me to go to a hospital clinic twice a week, taking a 9am bus. It's unrealistic and unenforceable to restrict usage to off peak hours.

Gael23 wrote: »

During all that I would have spent €40 a week on transport without my pass. I wouldn't have gone ahead with that treatment without it to be honest.

Well, two years ago if the start time was delayed, you could have got assistance from the welfare officer if you were that short. Restricting the start time of the FTP is the easiest to implement and the easiest to enforce. There would also be no additional cost to implement.

Very few of the 800,000 FTP holders would be effected by such a change and those that would be effected can be accommodated by special changes in the welfare code. This could be achieved by special passes or warrants issued by the HSE for attendance at clinics or by special payments by social security on submission of receipts and appointment details.

Changes are needed because the whole free travel is getting too big and costing too much through loss of revenue. It is also subject to massive abuse.

Idbatterim

my brother has a free travel pass and he could certainly more than afford public transport fares!

its typical ireland, nobody wants to pay for anything!

Sam Russell

Idbatterim wrote: »

my brother has a free travel pass and he could certainly more than afford public transport fares!

its typical ireland, nobody wants to pay for anything!

'Afford' means different things to different people. Many people on the bread-line or in dire financial straits still manage to afford a mobile phone of the smartest type and subscribe to pay-tv at €50 to €100 per month.

What is a necessity for one is utter unaffordable luxury to another. How can anyone survive the winter without a week in a sunny location or a week on the slopes?

The fact that someone COULD pay the full fare does not make it right that they do not avail of a FTP if they qualify for it. One of the reason for the FTP is to get people (particularly the elderly) to socialise.

Idbatterim

welfare rates here are so high, that in my mind there is no need justification for the FTP (with the exception of if a person has to travel frequently for medical care) . I dont agree with the carte blanche that the FTP is... We are running many rail services at huge losses, how many of these passengers with the current numbers are using the FTP, take them out of the scenario and the figures would be so bad, they would be shut down asap....

Edups2.0

Idbatterim wrote: »

welfare rates here are so high, that in my mind there is no need justification for the FTP (with the exception of if a person has to travel frequently for medical care) . I dont agree with the carte blanche that the FTP is... We are running many rail services at huge losses, how many of these passengers with the current numbers are using the FTP, take them out of the scenario and the figures would be so bad, they would be shut down asap....

God typical of someone who doesn't have to live on welfare :rolleyes:

Idbatterim

God typical of someone who doesn't have to live on welfare

who "has to" live on welfare? the pampered pensioners? the tens of thousands on disability benefit that are well capable of working? and if people are tight up, whatever happened to the family support network?

my dad is German, receives an Irish and german pension, jokes at how generous the system here is, the rates, the unlimited free travel etc... So sorry, I have basis for comparisons, rather than just the "there cant be enough" mentality that pervades this country, because RTE and vincent browne keep harping on about, the "vulnerable" and "fairness".

I also work with a lot of foreigners, mainly european, who cant get their head around the generosity of our system. again the system here is off the wall in comparison to countries which werent in a bail out and arent up to their necks in personal and sovereign debt...

Edups2.0

Idbatterim wrote: »

who "has to" live on welfare? the pampered pensioners? the tens of thousands on disability benefit that are well capable of working? and if people are tight up, whatever happened to the family support network?

my dad is German, receives an Irish and german pension, jokes at how generous the system here is, the rates, the unlimited free travel etc... So sorry, I have basis for comparisons, rather than just the "there cant be enough" mentality that pervades this country, because RTE and vincent browne keep harping on about, the "vulnerable" and "fairness".

I also work with a lot of foreigners, mainly european, who cant get their head around the generosity of our system. again the system here is off the wall in comparison to countries which werent in a bail out and arent up to their necks in personal and sovereign debt...

Ah yes you're one of those "you don't look disabled you must be grand to work!". I'm not even getting into the pensioners argument. Pampered on 230 a week... **** me.

AndrewJRenko

Idbatterim wrote: »

who "has to" live on welfare? the pampered pensioners? the tens of thousands on disability benefit that are well capable of working? and if people are tight up, whatever happened to the family support network?

Have you any idea what is involved in an assessment for disability allowance?

Cookie_Monster

Edups2.0 wrote: »

Ah yes you're one of those "you don't look disabled you must be grand to work!". I'm not even getting into the pensioners argument. Pampered on 230 a week... **** me.

and this is why there can't even begin to be a reasoned discussion on the topic...

Look, the fact is Ireland's welfare rates and other benefits are hilariously generous compared to other EU and first world countries. It's unsustainable, only going to get worse and needs to be dealt with.

Have you any idea what is involved in an assessment for disability allowance?

Clearly not much as Ireland has the most disabled population in Europe, which grew dramatically during the boom. Aleksmart has some good posts about the phenomenon if they can be tracked down

EDIT: here we go http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91023547&postcount=204

Edups2.0

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

and this is why there can't even begin to be a reasoned discussion on the topic...

Look, the fact is Ireland's welfare rates and other benefits are hilariously generous compared to other EU and first world countries. It's unsustainable, only going to get worse and needs to be dealt with.

Clearly not much as Ireland has the most disabled population in Europe, which grew dramatically during the boom. Aleksmart has some good posts about the phenomenon if they can be tracked down

Reasoned? Any discussion of social welfare I see on this website is people bashing it to death with a nail studded stick. Reasoned discussion in my hat. Getting disability allowance is not easy, and it's gotten even harder. I don't know where people get these ideas that you can get it on a sprained ankle. You must have a physical or mental disability which is expected to continue for at least one year, you need GP and hospital reports for physical and GP and psychiatric reports for mental disorders. And you may even be assessed by a DSP medical officer. You can't fake mental illness or physical disablement. And it's wholly ignorant of the poster I quoted to even suggest such a thing. It's all too common to hear rubbish like that. "Sure what's wrong with you, you look grand". Especially when it comes to mental illness it's disgusting to hear people say things like that.

Cookie_Monster

Edups2.0 wrote: »

Reasoned? Any discussion of social welfare I see on this website is people bashing it to death with a nail studded stick. Reasoned discussion in my hat. Getting disability allowance is not easy, and it's gotten even harder. I don't know where people get these ideas that you can get it on a sprained ankle. You must have a physical or mental disability which is expected to continue for at least one year, you need GP and hospital reports for physical and GP and psychiatric reports for mental disorders. And you may even be assessed by a DSP medical officer. You can't fake mental illness or physical disablement. And it's wholly ignorant of the poster I quoted to even suggest such a thing. It's all too common to hear rubbish like that. "Sure what's wrong with you, you look grand". Especially when it comes to mental illness it's disgusting to hear people say things like that.

then how do you explain the massive increase in those on disability in recent years. Are you suggesting we suddenly have one of the most unhealthy populations in Europe, specifically only within the last few years? It's either that or the piss is being taken on an extraordinary level...

Cookie_Monster

joeysoap wrote: »

Afaik Eastern Europeans who came to Ireland prior to their country joining EU were all 'put' on disability benefit. Might partly explain the ' upward swing' from 1996.

Schroedinger's Immigrants, stealing our jobs and on welfare and disability... :rolleyes:

oppenheimer1

hytrogen wrote: »

Those elderly with the free travel pass have paid the same taxes and fares as you are now in principal. Those contributions that they paid then was to go towards them being able to use the services now for free as a reward for their positive contributions to society, as you're presently doing. Of course funds have since been squandered tralala and here we are with over crowded under capacity and under funded services as you report (thumbs up and high fives all around, I'm agreeing with you!)

The tax system is not a savings system where you pay in during your working life to cash out at retirement. Taxpayers of today pay for the pensioners of today.

looksee

I have a FTP - as an OAP - and I use it occasionally. I would probably use it more often but limitations on my energy levels means I only travel when I have to. Though I have travelled on peak trains from Waterford and I honestly cannot say I have seen hords of OAPs. In fact the train is very quiet for the first hour or more, so why not put on extra commuter trains on the short, busy stretch from, say, Carlow to Dublin?

I would think that charging a proportion of the fare at peak times would be fair, to encourage people who can to travel at quieter times.

Edups2.0

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The tax system is not a savings system where you pay in during your working life to cash out at retirement. Taxpayers of today pay for the pensioners of today.

And the taxpayers of yesterday paid for the pensioners of yesterday. What's your point? Should old people work until they die?

Edups2.0

I think it should also be mentioned - that on busy services paying customers are priority. So if a train or bus is full pass holders are rejected.

joeysoap

Edups2.0 wrote: »

I think it should also be mentioned - that on busy services paying customers are priority. So if a train or bus is full pass holders are rejected.

I have been a paying passenger on a private bus service to Dublin (great service) and have seen the driver do this. The bus had maybe 10 free seats but he very politely informed maybe 4 pensioners that they would have to wait for the next bus (1 hour max). Sure enough one stop later (regional college) there's a queue waiting on the bus. Pretty sure there was no free seats after this stop. Do they refuse to take it at railway stations if the train is full? How would they know at an intermediate stop?

Edups2.0

joeysoap wrote: »

I have been a paying passenger on a private bus service to Dublin (great service) and have seen the driver do this. The bus had maybe 10 free seats but he very politely informed maybe 4 pensioners that they would have to wait for the next bus (1 hour max). Sure enough one stop later (regional college) there's a queue waiting on the bus. Pretty sure there was no free seats after this stop. Do they refuse to take it at railway stations if the train is full? How would they know at an intermediate stop?

I could be wrong about trains but buses definitely. As you said the bus driver knew what was ahead. In fairness to Dublin bus they do have a fair idea of how busy a certain route and time is likely to be.

AlekSmart

Edups2.0 wrote: »

I could be wrong about trains but buses definitely. As you said the bus driver knew what was ahead. In fairness to Dublin bus they do have a fair idea of how busy a certain route and time is likely to be.

It is important to clarify this issue.

DSP FT Scheme members travelling on services provided by the CIE group companies do NOT have any restrictions on their use of the FTP.

The arrangements for Private Operators on Licenced services are covered by individual commercial agreements between the Operator and the DSP,which could allow for the imposition of such restrictions.

One such example can be found here....

http://wexfordbus.com/terms-and-conditions/

Department of Social Welfare Travel Passes Terms and Conditions

Department of Social Welfare Travel Passes (without integrated photographs) are only accepted with valid photo identification such as a Drivers Licence or Passport.

Social Welfare Travel Pass holders without valid photo identification will be asked to pay for their journey.

Passes are only valid for use by the named individual identified on the card. If pass specifies, the named individual can be accompanied by their spouse or companion.

New Department of Social Welfare Travel Passes (these are credit card size and have integrated photos and chips) will be validated by the National Transport Authorities ticket machines that are installed on our buses. If the card validation is unsuccessful pass holders will be asked to pay for their journey and to report their faulty card to the Department of Social Protection.

If the bus is nearing capacity, passengers with Wexford Bus prepaid tickets including return tickets, tax saver tickets, Flexi 10 tickets, weekly tickets and internet bookings will be taken before passengers with Department of Social Welfare Travel Passes or those paying cash.

Passengers with Department of Social Welfare Travel Passes or those paying cash are boarded on a first come first served basis. Please note, Wexford Bus has no control over the queuing system at the bus stop.

The drivers decision is final.

It is most unlikely that any attempt to impose similar requirements on CIE group services would be accepted.

looksee

^^^ I wouldn't like to be the driver having to sort that out at the bus stop!

Bray Head

Irish welfare rates of payment best compared to the UK as things like contributions and eligibility are quite similar (and very different to France for example). I am comparing weekly jobseekers and pension payments as these are a large part of welfare spending in both places.
All comparisons at today's exchange rates.
Jobseekers assistance (maximum): IRL: 188 UK: 86.26
State pension (maximum): IRL: 233.30 UK: 140.71

Even if you allow for the sharp decline in sterling and lower price level in UK you are looking at Irish benefits which are at least a quarter more generous.

AndrewJRenko

Bray Head wrote: »

Irish welfare rates of payment best compared to the UK as things like contributions and eligibility are quite similar (and very different to France for example). I am comparing weekly jobseekers and pension payments as these are a large part of welfare spending in both places.
All comparisons at today's exchange rates.
Jobseekers assistance (maximum): IRL: 188 UK: 86.26
State pension (maximum): IRL: 233.30 UK: 140.71

Even if you allow for the sharp decline in sterling and lower price level in UK you are looking at Irish benefits which are at least a quarter more generous.

These comparisions are meaningless unless you look at cost of living and related support services. If you compare Ireland vs UK, you have take into account (for example) the value of the many additional supports that the UK provide via the NHS.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

then how do you explain the massive increase in those on disability in recent years. Are you suggesting we suddenly have one of the most unhealthy populations in Europe, specifically only within the last few years? It's either that or the piss is being taken on an extraordinary level...

There could be a whole pile of reasons for this. Maybe people with disabilities are more assertive about their entitlements, maybe more of them are getting out of residential institutions, maybe Government has pushed more people off the dole onto disability so they can claim that unemployment is falling.

You've chosen one possible explanation that suits your argument.

Bray Head

The comparisons are not meaningless. I mentioned the lower cost of living in the UK.

Actually I was wrong, according to Eurostat comparable goods and services were 6.5% MORE expensive in the UK than in Ireland. This makes Irish benefits look even more generous!

Healthcare is the key place where in-kind benefits differ a lot between Ireland and the UK. But otherwise they are broadly the same.

n97 mini

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

These comparisions are meaningless unless you look at cost of living and related support services. If you compare Ireland vs UK, you have take into account (for example) the value of the many additional supports that the UK provide via the NHS.

The health service here provides medical cards, so the cost to the end user is comparable to the UK (i.e. very little or free).

In addition it's usually the cost of living in Dublin and urban areas that are used for comparison by those claiming it's high. The reality is that the cost of living in many other parts of the country is quite low.

Emme

n97 mini wrote: »

The health service here provides medical cards, so the cost to the end user is comparable to the UK (i.e. very little or free).

In addition it's usually the cost of living in Dublin and urban areas that are used for comparison by those claiming it's high. The reality is that the cost of living in many other parts of the country is quite low.

That is not true. The cost of living in rural Ireland is just as high as in Dublin. I have lived in Dublin and I live in rural Ireland now. Indeed many things are more expensive in rural Ireland because there is no competition and suppliers can charge what they like.

AndrewJRenko

Bray Head wrote: »

The comparisons are not meaningless. I mentioned the lower cost of living in the UK.

Actually I was wrong, according to Eurostat comparable goods and services were 6.5% MORE expensive in the UK than in Ireland. This makes Irish benefits look even more generous!

Healthcare is the key place where in-kind benefits differ a lot between Ireland and the UK. But otherwise they are broadly the same.

You mentioned the lower cost of living, but you didn't put a number on it. You didn't mention healthcare, and you didn't put a number on it. You didn't mention issues like the cost and provision of appliances, like wheelchairs or walking frames or computer software or hardware needed to communicate. You didn't mention the costs of supplies like incontinence pads, special shoes or other clothing, and even the costs of waste disposal. You didn't mention social care services provided by UK local authorities, and how these impact lives for people for disabilities, particularly those that provide personal budgets.

UK and Ireland are very different environments for people with disabilities.