Reforms to Free Travel Scheme

Emme

I get the Waterford train to Dublin every morning and get on in Carlow at 7.08 or 7.59. The trains seems to get fuller every morning and it is not unusual for people to have to stand from Newbridge and often Athy. A good proportion of travellers on the 7.59 are pensioners. They get this train instead of the 8.58 because the 8.58 is already full to capacity when it gets to Carlow. Most seem to travelling for a "day out" which is fair enough.

However commuters who are paying thousands per year (even with taxsaver benefits) for a train ticket often have to stand. They arrive to work exhausted and their productivity is compromised. They also get sick more often. This has a negative impact on business.

The fact is there are not enough trains on the Waterford line to support unlimited travel for commuters and pensioners. Iarnrod Eireann are unable to put on more trains because of a lack of resources. The lack of resources could also be addressed by moving jobs outside the capital city to rural cities/towns such as Kilkenny, Naas and Portlaoise. Portlaoise is on another train line but commuters on that line suffer similar problems with crowded trains.

Until the lack of resources is resolved I am putting forward a modest proposal. Free travel pass holders should only be able to travel on off-peak trains unless they can prove they are going to a medical appointment or seeing somebody who is very ill in hospital.

If they are able-bodied and well able to get around they should not get free travel for someone to travel with them unless that person also qualifies for a free travel pass. At the moment they are taking up seats on commuter trains that are badly needed by beleaguered exhausted workers who cannot get suitable employment nearer to where they live.

This modest proposal may raise a few hackles but it is not fair to expect taxpayers who pay thousands for a train ticket to fund free travel passes for those who take up seats leaving paying passengers to stand! Why can't these people have a day out in Kilkenny or Waterford? These cities have lots to offer and if the free travel pass holders spent their money there they would support the local economy and keep train seats free for those who are paying for them and need them to get to work.

munchkin_utd

the one argument against would be that the pensioners need to have peak morning travel to make a hospital appointment.
You'd need to cater for that somehow, maybe that they bring their referal letter or something and then an exemption is made for them in that particular instance.

But yes, you'd have to say that its sensible to have people travelling for free not increasing to overcrowding, and if the scheme is based on pensioners getting free spins as there's a seat going free anyhow, then it should be tailored to that, i.e. off peak services only where trains are often ferrying air about the place.

BTW, theres a rail review just launched so best make your views heard there, not here.

Emme

munchkin_utd wrote: »

BTW, theres a rail review just launched so best make your views heard there, not here.

Are you a mod? If so could you please move the train to the rail review.

hytrogen

Ask yourself these questions when you come to retire and see what you say then when you're travelling up to see the grandkids or travelling up to the big smoke for a hospital appointment.
A public service is a service for all people without discrimination of race, age, sex, ethics, etc.
A counter to your seating issue is there are designated seating for assisted needs or restricted mobility users on all public transport. If they aren't in those seats it's probably because some pleb has selfishly taken up the seat and has refused to give it up for that elderly person in your seat.
So instead of lobbying for discrimination of a should-be respected group of society how about lobbying for an improved and more frequent service?! Because according to the spin doctors and antisocial anti-brit-empire movements (see western rail corridor thread for examples) "...nobody uses the trains..." and "...Irish rail are hemorrhaging money despite being subsidised.." is just some of the rhetoric being slapped around lately.

Carawaystick

Emme wrote: »

However commuters who are paying thousands per year (even with taxsaver benefits) for a train ticket often have to stand.

I'll return to this point below

Emme wrote: »

They arrive to work exhausted and their productivity is compromised. They also get sick more often. This has a negative impact on business.

They get sick more than the pensioners?

Emme wrote: »

The fact is there are not enough trains on the Waterford line to support unlimited travel for commuters and pensioners.

The fact is there is not an unlimited number of people.

Emme wrote: »

Until the lack of resources is resolved I am putting forward a modest proposal. Free travel pass holders should only be able to travel on off-peak trains unless they can prove they are going to a medical appointment or seeing somebody who is very ill in hospital.

How could this possibly comply with data protection rules? Consent to share data has to be given freely. A ticket checker has no business knowing the medical details of a passenger, or even more rediculously, a third party in hospital.

Emme wrote: »

If they are able-bodied and well able to get around they should not get free travel for someone to travel with them unless that person also qualifies for a free travel pass. At the moment they are taking up seats on commuter trains that are badly needed by beleaguered exhausted workers who cannot get suitable employment nearer to where they live.

Commuter trains have people standing all around the world at peak times.

Emme wrote: »

This modest proposal may raise a few hackles but it is not fair to expect taxpayers who pay thousands for a train ticket to fund free travel passes for those who take up seats leaving paying passengers to stand!

How do you know the pensioners pay no tax? They pay income tax and a reduced rate of usc, if their income is above the limits, vat, excise, and indirect taxes. Also the bottom 10% of population pay the second highest amount of their income in taxes in Ireland, once all taxes are included, not just income taxes.

Returning to your first point, it seems you have no problem with getting a subsidy from the exchequer for your train ticket, and just begrudge others getting a better subsidy. Should self employed people who pay the full price of season tickets get a seat ahead of the employees getting a tax rebate on their season tickets?

murphaph

Just for some international context: Over here (Berlin) there is no such thing as a free travel pass for OAPs. They get a discounted ticket, more steeply discounted if they take a ticket that does not allow travel during the morning rush (no restriction in the evenings). Disabled passes are also "graded", so a severely disabled person gets free travel, whilst somebody with a minor disability pays a reduced rate for their monthly ticket. These passes are only valid on Berlin local and regional public transport, not national bus or rail services.

There is no assumption made here that an OAP = someone who can't afford to pay for their own ticket. I think this is reasonable.

magicbastarder

Emme wrote: »

However commuters who are paying thousands per year (even with taxsaver benefits) for a train ticket often have to stand. They arrive to work exhausted and their productivity is compromised. They also get sick more often. This has a negative impact on business.

that's a hell of a conclusion to draw from the fact that someone may have had to stand for half an hour or an hour.
if they're exhausted from this amount of effort, i'm not surprised they get sick more often.

an aside, the repeated use of 'modest proposal' gave me a chuckle.

punisher5112

This is how passes use to work. There were different colour ones for different reasons.

Some were for off peak.

It really should be means tested anyway to be honest.

Drug addicts also get unlimited free travel so the whole system is crazy.

Emme

hytrogen wrote: »

Ask yourself these questions when you come to retire and see what you say then when you're travelling up to see the grandkids or travelling up to the big smoke for a hospital appointment.
A public service is a service for all people without discrimination of race, age, sex, ethics, etc.
A counter to your seating issue is there are designated seating for assisted needs or restricted mobility users on all public transport. If they aren't in those seats it's probably because some pleb has selfishly taken up the seat and has refused to give it up for that elderly person in your seat.
So instead of lobbying for discrimination of a should-be respected group of society how about lobbying for an improved and more frequent service?! Because according to the spin doctors and antisocial anti-brit-empire movements (see western rail corridor thread for examples) "...nobody uses the trains..." and "...Irish rail are hemorrhaging money despite being subsidised.." is just some of the rhetoric being slapped around lately.

I said there should be an option for travel pass holders who are travelling for medical appointments - hospital, consultant, opthalmologist etc.

People who commute to work pay thousands of euro for an annual ticket. It is not unreasonable for them to expect to travel to and from work in safety for that. Standing for an hour from Carlow, Athy or indeed Portlaoise is not safety. We are the ones who are working, paying taxes and contributing to the pot that pays for the free travel.

It's all very well offering free travel passes but if there isn't the capacity for the hordes who want to use them they're pointless. If train travel is a public service for all then there should be reasonable capacity for all. I am sure that travel pass holders would prefer to travel on later off peak trains where possible but due to overcrowding they have to travel on commuter trains. There isn't the capacity on trains to accommodate travel pass holders and commuters. Standing for 20 minutes on a train is reasonable, standing for an hour is not. There's a big difference between standing for 20 minutes on a train each way to standing for an hour on a train each way.

The Taxsaver offer makes train travel more attractive to commuters for economic reasons. The alternative would be more people on already overcrowded roads. Having said that, carpooling is starting to look good.

There are other contributory factors such as the policy of cramming as many businesses and services as possible into Dublin. It has got to the point where roads and public transport to Dublin are crammed beyond their capacity. Overcrowded trains are just one facet of the problem. Overpriced housing is another which isn't relevant to this thread but then again if people could afford to live nearer their place of work they wouldn't be putting themselves through the hell of a long train commute.

How do you know somebody on a train is a pleb?

hytrogen

murphaph wrote:

Just for some international context: Over here (Berlin) there is no such thing as a free travel pass for OAPs. They get a discounted ticket, more steeply discounted if they take a ticket that does not allow travel during the morning rush (no restriction in the evenings). Disabled passes are also "graded", so a severely disabled person gets free travel, whilst somebody with a minor disability pays a reduced rate for their monthly ticket. These passes are only valid on Berlin local and regional public transport, not national bus or rail services.

With respect and not to de-rail the thread (see what I did there?) Berlin imao is the most inaccessible capital city in Europe, very unfriendly unaccommodating to special needs, restricted mobility access in terms of ramps, lifts, special pavements, etc. I have ever seen on a public transport network. I visited there during the summer. The signage, signalling paving surface, platforms to trains / trams, buses, everything was very unaccommodating overall. Some would view as a deterrent, even discriminatory to those with special needs or elderly tourists. So I'm not surprised with the ticketing principals to conform to these observations..

Gatling

Emme wrote: »

It's all very well offering free travel passes but if there isn't the capacity for the hordes who want to use them they're pointless. There isn't the capacity on trains to accommodate travel pass holders and commuters.

How do you know somebody on a train is a pleb?

Oh the barbarians .

Not sure what the pleb question is.

magicbastarder

just in case the OP is not aware of the understanding many people take of the phrase 'a modest proposal':

In English writing, the phrase "a modest proposal" is now conventionally an allusion to this style of straight-faced satire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

if the OP is familiar with that use and was deliberately hinting at it, that throws the question into a different light.

hytrogen

Emme wrote:

It's all very well offering free travel passes but if there isn't the capacity for the hordes who want to use them they're pointless. If train travel is a public service for all then there should be reasonable capacity for all. I am sure that travel pass holders would prefer to travel on later off peak trains where possible but due to overcrowding they have to travel on commuter trains. There isn't the capacity on trains to accommodate travel pass holders and commuters.

If the capacity isn't there then you need to lobby for more capacity, not discriminate against a minority group who use the service, more frequent services would definitely contribute to easing that burden.

Emme wrote:

How do you know somebody on a train is a pleb?

Sure you see the same kind of plebs on buses and trams who don't give up their seat to people with special needs, elderly or disabled access / restricted mobility needs. There's a reason the big blue sticker is beside that seat, it's to allow those needing the seat to exit the carriage more efficiently and not delay the service departing.

Emme

magicbastarder wrote: »

just in case the OP is not aware of the understanding many people take of the phrase 'a modest proposal':

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal

if the OP is familiar with that use and was deliberately hinting at it, that throws the question into a different light.

I am aware of this - it originates from Swift's pamphlet "A Modest Proposal" suggesting that the poor of 17th century Dublin eat their babies because they couldn't afford food. However I still want to bring attention to the following:

Inadequate capacity on trains, especially on the Waterford line
Travel pass holders being forced to take commuter trains because of overcrowding on off peak-trains
The policy of locating all businesses in Dublin with all its adverse effects - roads clogged up so much that there is at least one crash every day on the M50 and/or M7, housing that is unaffordable for the average working family, overcrowded public transport to Dublin

Lest anyone say "look at London, people suffer worse with the rail system there" we are no longer subjects of the Crown so we do not have to follow the British example on everything.

pc7

I don't believe anything should be entirely free, be it travel, medical cards etc. A small/nominal amount should have to be paid to say travel on the train, even 50c. Same for doctors appointments with medical cards, even €1.

Emme

hytrogen wrote: »

If the capacity isn't there then you need to lobby for more capacity, not discriminate against a minority group who use the service, more frequent services would definitely contribute to easing that burden.


Sure you see the same kind of plebs on buses and trams who don't give up their seat to people with special needs, elderly or disabled access / restricted mobility needs. There's a reason the big blue sticker is beside that seat, it's to allow those needing the seat to exit the carriage more efficiently and not delay the service departing.

With respect, the people you refer to as plebs don't usually get up early enough to take morning commuter trains. They are not taking up seats at 7am or 8am.

hytrogen

Emme wrote:

People who commute to work pay thousands of euro for an annual ticket..... It's all very well offering free travel passes but....

Those elderly with the free travel pass have paid the same taxes and fares as you are now in principal. Those contributions that they paid then was to go towards them being able to use the services now for free as a reward for their positive contributions to society, as you're presently doing. Of course funds have since been squandered tralala and here we are with over crowded under capacity and under funded services as you report (thumbs up and high fives all around, I'm agreeing with you!)

hytrogen

Emme wrote:

With respect, the people you refer to as plebs don't usually get up early enough to take morning commuter trains. They are not taking up seats at 7am or 8am.

True those at that hour are the ones that the coffee hasn't kicked in yet :P

gctest50

Emme wrote: »

Inadequate capacity on trains, especially on the Waterford line

.

Just add on a few more carriages ?

magicbastarder

Emme wrote: »

The policy of locating all businesses in Dublin

whose policy is this?

magicbastarder

what would be considered the catchment area of a railway station? obviously it's going to be different based on whether we're talking commuter or intercity rail, but i'd be curious as to whether there are figures for how many people live within a certain radius of a railway station, which would obviously have an impact on its viability.

GG66

Standing on trains sucks over long journeys but I don't believe targeting senior citizens as the source of your problem is productive. Encouraging better rail services and more regional employment would be a better use of your time.

Emme wrote: »

However commuters who are paying thousands per year (even with taxsaver benefits) for a train ticket often have to stand. They arrive to work exhausted and their productivity is compromised. They also get sick more often. This has a negative impact on business.

There's more to life than business and productivity.

But if you feel that way, standing up can improve productivity.
Ask your boss for a stand up desk and you can stand up all day.
http://read.bi/1IstpZp

That's if you work at a desk.

Emme wrote: »

The fact is there are not enough trains on the Waterford line to support unlimited travel for commuters and pensioners. Iarnrod Eireann are unable to put on more trains because of a lack of resources. The lack of resources could also be addressed by moving jobs outside the capital city to rural cities/towns such as Kilkenny, Naas and Portlaoise. Portlaoise is on another train line but commuters on that line suffer similar problems with crowded trains.

Packed commuter trains is a fact of life all over the world.

Emme wrote: »

Until the lack of resources is resolved I am putting forward a modest proposal. Free travel pass holders should only be able to travel on off-peak trains unless they can prove they are going to a medical appointment or seeing somebody who is very ill in hospital.

Define very ill?
How would you police these elderly people and prove they indeed have a very sick friend?

"You're going to visit a very sick friend, I see. Prove that to me"
WTF

Emme wrote: »

At the moment they are taking up seats on commuter trains that are badly needed by beleaguered exhausted workers who cannot get suitable employment nearer to where they live.

Lobby your TD for local employment
Maybe you're not working at a desk after all. What are you doing at night that has you so exhausted every morning.

Emme wrote: »

This modest proposal may raise a few hackles but it is not fair to expect taxpayers who pay thousands for a train ticket to fund free travel passes for those who take up seats leaving paying passengers to stand!

I'll make a modest assumption that many of these citizens have paid taxes all their lives. Personally I prefer to live in a country where senior citizens are recognised for their contribution to society. I think it's nice to show elderly people respect and give up my seat if they need one whether they're paying for it or not.

Emme wrote: »

Why can't these people have a day out in Kilkenny or Waterford? These cities have lots to offer and if the free travel pass holders spent their money there they would support the local economy and keep train seats free for those who are paying for them and need them to get to work.

A day out eh? all of them?

Emme

gctest50 wrote: »

Just add on a few more carriages ?

Not possible. Most trains have 6 cars which is the maximum capacity for platforms on the Waterford line. Some of the platforms are too small for the number of people waiting for commuter trains in the morning - people are almost falling onto the tracks. More trains need to be put on at peak commuting time.

gctest50

Emme wrote: »

Not possible. Most trains have 6 cars which is the maximum capacity for platforms on the Waterford line....

6 carriages and that's it ? Hornby train station needs to be extended

Emme wrote: »

Some of the platforms are too small for the number of people waiting for commuter trains in the morning - people are almost falling onto the tracks.
....

I don't doubt you at all, comedy train station definitely needs to be extended

Emme wrote: »

More trains need to be put on at peak commuting time.

More carriages - then you can keep all the carriages at the front for people who have paid thousands for a yearly ticket

Emme

GG66 wrote: »

Standing on trains sucks over long journeys but I don't believe targeting senior citizens as the source of your problem is productive. Encouraging better rail services and more regional employment would be a better use of your time.

I made the point that most businesses seem to be located in the Dublin area which is putting undue strain on public transport and on roads.

GG66 wrote: »

There's more to life than business and productivity.

Most people have to work for a living. If they don't deliver they're out.

GG66 wrote: »

But if you feel that way, standing up can improve productivity.
Ask your boss for a stand up desk and you can stand up all day.
http://read.bi/1IstpZp

That's if you work at a desk.

Thanks for the suggestion. I already stand on the train some days. I don't want to be at more risk of vascular disease.

GG66 wrote: »

Packed commuter trains is a fact of life all over the world.

Are they?

GG66 wrote: »

Define very ill? How would you police these elderly people and prove they indeed have a very sick friend? "You're going to visit a very sick friend, I see. Prove that to me" WTF

I am not a qualified medical professional. A doctor's letter should suffice for hospital appointments and sick family.

GG66 wrote: »

Lobby your TD for local employment
Maybe you're not working at a desk after all. What are you doing at night that has you so exhausted every morning.

My local TDs are trying to stop what businesses are left in the area from closing down. I prefer to get employment on my own merits and not on "pull". At night I am doing household chores and trying to get some sleep. I suffer from autoimmune disease and that often has me fatigued.

GG66 wrote: »

I'll make a modest assumption that many of these citizens have paid taxes all their lives. Personally I prefer to live in a country where senior citizens are recognised for their contribution to society. I think it's nice to show elderly people respect and give up my seat if they need one whether they're paying for it or not.

How do you know they need one? For all you know they could be fitter than you. I agree that they contributed to society but many of them did not work the hours people work today nor did as many of them have long commutes. Yes they deserve respect but standing on a train for an hour each way day in day out while you're paying thousand for it at the expense of people who don't pay for their seats would wear down the patience of most people.

GG66 wrote: »

A day out eh? all of them?

Some of them but not all of them.

n97 mini

hytrogen wrote: »

Ask yourself these questions when you come to retire and see what you say then when you're travelling up to see the grandkids or travelling up to the big smoke for a hospital appointment.
A public service is a service for all people without discrimination of race, age, sex, ethics, etc.

One section of the population getting free travel is a form of discrimination. No discrimination would mean equal access for all. People could still travel to the big smoke or a hospital appointment but would have to pay the same as everyone else at peak time.

gctest50

Jem72 wrote: »

Maybe they should just take everyone for free on a bus if there are empty seats since the bus is going anyway.

.

Infini

There is a third option. Travel shouldnt be free duing peak times but there should be a concession fare of 25~50% of the normal fare. The department isnt paying its fare share and hasnt been for years.

murphaph

hytrogen wrote: »

With respect and not to de-rail the thread (see what I did there?) Berlin imao is the most inaccessible capital city in Europe, very unfriendly unaccommodating to special needs, restricted mobility access in terms of ramps, lifts, special pavements, etc. I have ever seen on a public transport network. I visited there during the summer. The signage, signalling paving surface, platforms to trains / trams, buses, everything was very unaccommodating overall. Some would view as a deterrent, even discriminatory to those with special needs or elderly tourists. So I'm not surprised with the ticketing principals to conform to these observations..

Interesting. How were the buses inaccessible?

Emme

Infini2 wrote: »

There is a third option. Travel shouldnt be free duing peak times but there should be a concession fare of 25~50% of the normal fare. The department isnt paying its fare share and hasnt been for years.

Iarnrod Eireann are always stating that they are short of money. Yet trains are packed to capacity with people standing for much of the journey. Their NCPS car parks are full in the mornings. Some rural stations on busy lines are in very bad repair and have had no money spent on them for decades. So where is the money going? Connolly Station is much better equipped than Heuston so maybe the money isn't going where it should. Was too much spent on the Dublin to Belfast line trying to impress the Northerners?