Reforms to Free Travel Scheme

gctest50

Emme wrote: »

Iarnrod Eireann are always stating that they are short of money. Yet trains are packed to capacity with people standing for much of the journey. .......

Small wonder they've no money for the routes that need it - the politicians got stuck into it :

Railway line is costing €550 per passenger to run


Subvention for every passenger journey on the Dart is 90 cent, while on the Limerick-Ballybrophy (via Nenagh) line it is €550.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/railway-line-is-costing-550-per-passenger-to-run-1.2867906

newacc2015

hytrogen wrote: »

Ask yourself these questions when you come to retire and see what you say then when you're travelling up to see the grandkids or travelling up to the big smoke for a hospital appointment.
A public service is a service for all people without discrimination of race, age, sex, ethics, etc.

Can we get real and realise that most OAPs on the bus/train early in the are not going to the hospital or seeing their grandchildren. At most they would probably see their consultant every 6 months. Do they really need peak travel for the other 363 days of the year? I think not. Even if they are seeing their grandchildren, do they really need to take the 7.30 am train while everyone is trying to get to work around them? Not really, they could take the 10am train when all commuters are in work

It is interesting you bring up that it is a public good. One of the issues with public goods is if you do LC economics is the free rider problem, which is someone who uses a good and doesnt contribute to the cost of it. OAPs are free riders, they are using public transport and not fairly paying for it. I know they paid etc. But I imagine if they are paid a nominal amount even say €5 for Cork to Dublin during peak, I say their would a be fraction of them on it.

Ireland is unique in the sense that students pay ridiculous fares for public transport, while OAPs pay nothing. In most European cities, students pay next to nothing and OAPs pay close to full fare or full fare. Most OAPs can afford to pay for transport no problem. While broke students are expected to pay massive fares standing on full trains. But it is fine as long as an OAP can see her grandchildren a few hours earlier?

harr

As a free pass holder I am shocked who is actually entitled to a free travel pass...I use mine twice a week to bring my son to appointment in city centre..I go free but I have to pay for my child ...all appointments are for 10 am so I need to get 7.30 train or latest 8 am train..I honestly don't see the crowd of OAP other people are talking about and yes we have to stand all the way to Dublin on occasions not easy with a special needs child in tow..
I have spoken to people I know from the town who are known drug addicts and they are entitled to travel pass to go collect methadone and I also have seen others who would be homeless on occasions travel between Dublin and Galway just to have somewhere warm to go...

Peppa Pig

newacc2015 wrote: »

Can we get real and realise that most OAPs on the bus/train early in the are not going to the hospital or seeing their grandchildren.

Where do you reckon they are going?

Gatling

harr wrote: »

I have spoken to people I know from the town who are known drug addicts and they are entitled to travel pass to go collect methadone

People who are actually Ill and suffering various medical complications from addiction there on disability too like thousands of others too including those visiting there favorite golf course for 18 hole's to alleviate their depression ,

Spanish Eyes

Anyone with free travel must be really off their heads if they use rush hour commuting times for non essential travel. So it must be essential right?

That applies to everyone. Imagine you have a day off work and want to go into the city, well wouldn't you wait until after 9am anyway? Well I would!

I suppose it depends on the origin and destination though, before anyone kills me.

I'm talking suburban rail/luas/bus within the Dublin catchment area here.

newacc2015

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Where do you reckon they are going?

Shops, mass, work etc. I find it hard to believe tens of thousands of OAPs have medical appointments during rush hour every day

Hilly Bill

harr wrote: »

While I agree with some points ...especially getting rid of the paper pass ..I have to disagree with the carer only traveling with the person they are caring for..
I am a full time carer for a child with a disability who spends various spells in hospital so I use my pass to travel to and from the hospital on the train...I also have various meetings and training involved with my child's needs again I need to use public transport as I do not have use of a car most days as wife uses the car to get to her job.. I do try use the pass only when traveling to appointments connected with my child's disability, without my pass we would be put under more Financial pressure and things are tough enough money wise as things stand...does not help when a lot of people brand all travel pass holders as freeloaders and wasters (not op)
I need my pass ..
And I agree that a lot of people are getting the pass to easy.

Is the pass in your name?

Hilly Bill

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Where do you reckon they are going?

Newry and Belfast shopping.

harr

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Is the pass in your name?

Yes as a carer I get a travel pass

Emme

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Newry and Belfast shopping.

JJ Kavanagh should run a bus to Newry and Belfast for the shoppers but there's one problem, they'd have to pay to travel by private bus.

If they're coming up on the Waterford line to go to Newry and Belfast they would have to take the train from Connolly. If they do a day return (bless their stamina) they would be taking FOUR peak time trains on the one day. That's abusing the system.

If they can afford to go shopping in Newry and Belfast they can afford to buy a ticket to travel by train in Ireland.

Vic_08

Peppa Pig wrote: »

Where do you reckon they are going?

Anywhere, everywhere and often nowhere.

There are plenty of FTP joyriders who just go and come back, some are prolific.

One I could mention would travel almost daily on a certain Bus Eireann commuter route into Dublin. Taxi from house to bus stop then 2 return journeys and taxi back home, depending on the driver she wouldn't even get off the bus at the terminus. Plenty of scarce peak time seats taken up by that one on a route where people were often left to wait for the next service due to the bus being full.

murphaph

Vic_08 wrote: »

Anywhere, everywhere and often nowhere.

There are plenty of FTP joyriders who just go and come back, some are prolific.

One I could mention would travel almost daily on a certain Bus Eireann commuter route into Dublin. Taxi from house to bus stop then 2 return journeys and taxi back home, depending on the driver she wouldn't even get off the bus at the terminus. Plenty of scarce peak time seats taken up by that one on a route where people were often left to wait for the next service due to the bus being full.

But but but the old people worked all their lives do do this!

gctest50

Vic_08 wrote: »

Anywhere, everywhere and often nowhere.

There are plenty of FTP joyriders who just go and come back, some are prolific.

One I could mention would travel almost daily on a certain Bus Eireann commuter route into Dublin. Taxi from house to bus stop then 2 return journeys and taxi back home, depending on the driver she wouldn't even get off the bus at the terminus. Plenty of scarce peak time seats taken up by that one on a route where people were often left to wait for the next service due to the bus being full.

The taxi drivers get a few euros and it's better than a nursing home

Go downhill quickly if yer not active n out n about, then she could end up in hospital in that "awkward" place - not safe enough to dischage, not really sick enough to be there



costs less too :

about €160 a day

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/list/4/olderpeople/nhss/costofcareHSE.pdf

Geuze

newacc2015 wrote: »

Ireland is unique in the sense that students pay ridiculous fares for public transport, while OAPs pay nothing. In most European cities, students pay next to nothing and OAPs pay close to full fare or full fare. Most OAPs can afford to pay for transport no problem. While broke students are expected to pay massive fares standing on full trains. But it is fine as long as an OAP can see her grandchildren a few hours earlier?

+++++++++++++

I agree 100%.

My unemployed brother got a tiny discount off the adult fare for a 10-journey BE weekly ticket on the 109, while studying to improve himself.

My parents will 1/2 million in financial assets travel for free.

Sam Russell

If the FTP was restricted to just being valid for use after 9:30am and valid for discounted fares prior to that time, it might make for more sensible use. [Clearly this would need detailed thought, for example if the only service of the morning starts at 9.05, should the FTP be valid?]

The argument that some might need it for hospital appointments, while valid, is only a small proportion of its users. Equally, having carers getting the card for their own use without the cared for being present encourages the idea of widespread abuse, even if it is rare.

However, revenue protection need to be beefed up as I have hardly ever had my ticket checked while travelling on the Dart.

AlekSmart

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the FTP was restricted to just being valid for use after 9:30am and valid for discounted fares prior to that time, it might make for more sensible use. [Clearly this would need detailed thought, for example if the only service of the morning starts at 9.05, should the FTP be valid?]

The argument that some might need it for hospital appointments, while valid, is only a small proportion of its users. Equally, having carers getting the card for their own use without the cared for being present encourages the idea of widespread abuse, even if it is rare.

However, revenue protection need to be beefed up as I have hardly ever had my ticket checked while travelling on the Dart.

Very valid points.

As of 2014 there were 812,892 Free Travel Passes legitmately in circulation.

When the Spouse/Companion entitlement is factored in,that extends to c.1.33 Million individuals entitled to Free Public Transport provision within the State.

(NB: The 1.33 Million figure is an approximate as the DSP were unable to supply a definitive figure to the Dail Committee on Public Accounts during it's 2015 appearance ).

murphaph

Something rotten in the state of Denmark with those numbers.

AlekSmart

murphaph wrote: »

Something rotten in the state of Denmark with those numbers.

The updated figures for 2015 now report a total of 842,744 Free Travel Passes in Legitimate circulation.

For a country which was/is technically bankrupt,it's not bad,is it ? :rolleyes:

Bray Head

AlekSmart wrote: »

murphaph wrote: »

Something rotten in the state of Denmark with those numbers.

The updated figures for 2015 now report a total of 842,744 Free Travel Passes in Legitimate circulation.

For a country which was/is technically bankrupt,it's not bad,is it ? :rolleyes:

A 30k increase is not so strange when you consider that the >65 population is growing at 22k per annum at the moment.
For the record, pensioners are the age group least likely to experience poverty and the age group with by far the highest household wealth.

Despite this you get many non-means-tested benefits when you hit 70 and at 65 you pay far less tax on your income and no PRSI: http://www.publicpolicy.ie/old-people-pay-much-less-tax-than-the-young.

At administrative level the 'cost of standing still' is well understood but politicians are petrified to do anything about it.

Policies like peak-time travel for pensioners (introduced by Seamus Brennan) were absurd as they undermined the original logic of the scheme which was designed to smooth demand across the day. Of course once introduced, this kind of policy is next to impossible to get rid of, and it's the working youth that have to pay.

AlekSmart

Bray Head wrote: »

A 30k increase is not so strange when you consider that the >65 population is growing at 22k per annum at the moment.
For the record, pensioners are the age group least likely to experience poverty and the age group with by far the highest household wealth.

Despite this you get many non-means-tested benefits when you hit 70 and at 65 you pay far less tax on your income and no PRSI: http://www.publicpolicy.ie/old-people-pay-much-less-tax-than-the-young.

At administrative level the 'cost of standing still' is well understood but politicians are petrified to do anything about it.

Policies like peak-time travel for pensioners (introduced by Seamus Brennan) were absurd as they undermined the original logic of the scheme which was designed to smooth demand across the day. Of course once introduced, this kind of policy is next to impossible to get rid of, and it's the working youth that have to pay.

All well and good,but before wading in to the ageing hordes with sabres flashing,it may be worthwhile to recall that the Free Travel Scheme is NOT solely for Pensioners...

The 2014 figures show the TOTAL number of passes issued to pension aged persons as 476,971...which approximates to c. 60 % of the total.

The other large groupings of Free Travel Scheme members are 112,079 on Disability Benefit followed by 108,267 classified as "Others"...59,367 on Carers Allowance,53,396 on Invalidity Pension,2396 Deserted Wives,

There is a growing reality,that in a country of c.3.6 Million adults,affording some 1.4 Million,Free Public Transport 24/7/365 can only be maintained at a cost,which is far above the €79 Million currently provided since 2010.

Sam Russell

The easiest restriction to apply would be to put a start time for travel, such as 9:30am. It used to be restricted between 4:30 pm and 6 or 7 pm, but that would restrict people who were away from home and could be trapped.

Another restriction that could be applied would be a small fare, or turn the FTP into a special Leap card with a weekly or monthly allowance.

It could be restricted to fewer groups, or it could carry an annual charge, or perhaps be means tested.

But it is obviously very hard to remove it once granted.

Bray Head

AlekSmart wrote: »

All well and good,but before wading in to the ageing hordes with sabres flashing,it may be worthwhile to recall that the Free Travel Scheme is NOT solely for Pensioners...

The 2014 figures show the TOTAL number of passes issued to pension aged persons as 476,971...which approximates to c. 60 % of the total.

The other large groupings of Free Travel Scheme members are 112,079 on Disability Benefit followed by 108,267 classified as "Others"...59,367 on Carers Allowance,53,396 on Invalidity Pension,2396 Deserted Wives,

There is a growing reality,that in a country of c.3.6 Million adults,affording some 1.4 Million,Free Public Transport 24/7/365 can only be maintained at a cost,which is far above the 79 Million currently provided since 2010.

Very true. The fact that only 60% of eligible pensioners take it up speaks volumes.

Cookie_Monster

2396 Deserted Wives

that's a pretty random one to get free travel...

Gatling

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that's a pretty random one to get free travel...

Considering they stopped the actual payment years ago for social welfare,

I'd love to know what "Others"are

Emme

Bray Head wrote: »

Very true. The fact that only 60% of eligible pensioners take it up speaks volumes.

I wonder what proportion of that 60% live on the Waterford line which has relatively few trains running per day and certainly not enough to cater for passenger demand.

If a train line has low passenger capacity and runs fewer trains then these trains will carry a higher proportion of passengers using free travel than trains on lines with more capacity.

If trains outside the peak travel period are very full then free travel pass holders are more likely to use trains inside the peak travel period. FTP passengers have no choice but to travel on commuter trains and if there are no seats left at stations like Athy and Carlow it is unfair on commuters who pay a lot (even after taxsaver) for an annual ticket.

Free travel passes only work if there is the capacity to accommodate those using them, especially at peak travel periods on train lines with fewer trains.

newacc2015

Sam Russell wrote: »

But it is obviously very hard to remove it once granted.

I wonder would it be possible for the various arms of CIE to refuse taking the free travel pass? I know it would be very political and unwelcome. But the fact is the travel pass in eating into revenues. I know tons of people who would love to take the train, but hate paying €40 at the station to stand for 3 hours as the train is full of free travel pass OAPs. So they pay €15 for a BE ticket.

If DB refused to take travel passes over lack of revenue and instead made OAPs pay fares, it would probably be better off financially. Plus it would be dealing with overcrowding at peak times.

TheQuietFella

Limit the usage and distances of travel.

If you can travel to the airport on one you can surely pay for the journey to the airport.

Emme

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Limit the usage and distances of travel.

If you can travel to the airport on one you can surely pay for the journey to the airport.

The same applies for using the train to do your Christmas shopping. If you can afford to go Christmas shopping on the train you can afford to pay for a ticket. Many regular commuters are so strapped for cash after mortgage, bills, annual train ticket, parking at the station etc. they can't afford Christmas.

Del.Monte

Yeah, yeah we've heard it all before, just get rid of free travel for OAP's and Irish Rail will be an overnight success. How about just tweaking the free travel scheme a bit such as charging a flat couple of Euros per journey and see how that pans out?