Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

ohnonotgmail

steddyeddy wrote: »

No moral problem with the British selling arms to Gadaffi (they did) who sold it to the IRA. Then complaining about the IRA. Logic fails you my recently thawed friend.

except Gaddafi didnt pass on the weapons he got from britain to the ira. he gave them mostly soviet bloc weapons like AKs and RPGs.

Iwasfrozen

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So no moral problem with my selling weaponry to North Korea if they tell me it will only be used as a deterrent?

See above, there are UN sanctions against NK.

https://www.sipri.org/databases/embargoes/un_arms_embargoes/north_korea

greendom

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The the next thing is to work through UN sanctions. Not unilateral sanctions which only hurt the economy of the seller nation.

God forbid that the economy is hurt to prevent the deaths of innocents.

What about doing the right thing and acting with a clean conscience?

Professor Moriarty

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

See above, there are UN sanctions against NK.

https://www.sipri.org/databases/embargoes/un_arms_embargoes/north_korea

That's not the point.

Enzokk

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

See above, there are UN sanctions against NK.

https://www.sipri.org/databases/embargoes/un_arms_embargoes/north_korea

If you decide to sell weapons (not implements that can be used as weapons) then you have to decide whether you will be a responsible seller or you don't care. It seems that the UK has decided that profit is more important than being responsible with their weapons sales and that is their choice.

Iwasfrozen

greendom wrote: »

God forbid that the economy is hurt to prevent the deaths of innocents.

What about doing the right thing and acting with a clean conscience?

But unilateral sanctions won't prevent innocents dying, the buyer would just source another seller. Instead the economy would be hurt and innocents would continue to die regardless.

That's why I believe sanctions, when warranted, should be placed by the UN with the power to enforce them.

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The reason most of us are not xenophobes and racists is because we use our 'reason'. What is notable in the Leave campaign and the UK's delivery of Brexit  is the absence of reason.

That is just not true. Go to countries around the world and get the views of citizens views of outsiders (foreigners) coming into those countries.

Iwasfrozen

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

That's not the point.

Yes it is, because another country couldn't pock up the North Korean market, the NK market doesn't exist.

*Not legally anyway.

Professor Moriarty

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes it is, because another country couldn't pock up the North Korean market, the NK market doesn't exist.

*Not legally anyway.

No. My question is simply this: Do you think that morals should play any part in a country's decision to supply weapons to another country?

Iwasfrozen

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

No. My question is simply this: Do you think that morals should play any part in a country's decision to supply weapons to another country?

Yes, but the place to channel those concerns is through group action. Not ineffective unilateral sanctions.

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

No. My question is simply this: Do you think that morals should play any part in a country's decision to supply weapons to another country?

Should that not apply to all trade, or is taking money from oppressive regimes OK as long as it isn't for arms?

Zubeneschamali

A Little Pony wrote: »

The UK will be leaving the EU and the single market.

Yes, that's how it looks.

Given the scale of the disaster that will be for the UK's economy, I can see why people might be looking for loopholes.

Professor Moriarty

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes, but the place to channel those concerns is through group action. Not ineffective unilateral sanctions.

I wouldn't agree. Just like human beings, societies should have a moral code and act in alignment with that code even if it means acting unilaterally. The alternative is to say: Well, we believe that what country X is doing with their weapons is wrong but we'll supply weapons to them because everybody else doesn't agree with our position.

That reminds me of the Groucho Marx quote: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Should that not apply to all trade, or is taking money from oppressive regimes OK as long as it isn't for arms?

Good question. Sometimes you might have to ban all trade with the country on order to force change. Of course, that may then hurt the population of that country. It's a judgement call when it comes to commodities such as food.

Iwasfrozen

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I wouldn't agree. Just like human beings, societies should have a moral code and act in alignment with that code even if it means acting unilaterally. The alternative is to say: Well, we believe that what country X is doing with their weapons is wrong but we'll supply weapons to them because everybody else doesn't agree with our position.

That reminds me of the Groucho Marx quote: "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."

I disagree, if your actions one way or another have no effect on an outcome then you cannot be held morally accountable for the existence of that outcome.

Professor Moriarty

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I disagree, if your actions one way or another have no effect on an outcome then you cannot be held morally accountable for the existence of that outcome.

If I don't supply weapons to a country I am having an effect. You are not factoring in competition, pricing, quality etc. I am also taking a moral stand which informs other countries of my opinion.

VinLieger

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I disagree, if your actions one way or another have no effect on an outcome then you cannot be held morally accountable for the existence of that outcome.

That's some twisted sense of morality your using there to justify your own idealogy for being pro brexit.

The idea that just cus "someone else would do it if I wasn't and that makes any results of it not my fault" is child like in its reasoning.

So if a thief sees a car with the keys in its ignition and steals it he's morally sound in doing so just cus its likely another thief would have done it anyway?

Iwasfrozen

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

If I don't supply weapons to a country I am having an effect. You are not factoring in competition, pricing, quality etc. I am also taking a moral stand which informs other countries of my opinion.

The weapons can be sourced from another country, Nome of those factors you mention affect a weapon's ability to commit atrocities. That remains static.

Professor Moriarty

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The weapons can be sourced from another country, Nome of those factors you mention affect a weapon's ability to commit atrocities. That remains static.

Are weapons made in every country exactly the same? Same price?

Iwasfrozen

VinLieger wrote: »

That's some twisted sense of morality your using there to justify your own idealogy for being pro brexit.

The idea that just cus "someone else would do it if I wasn't and that makes any results of it not my fault" is child like in its reasoning.

So if a thief sees a car with the keys in its ignition and steals it he's morally sound in doing so just cus its likely another thief would have done it anyway?

This conversation had nothing to do with Brexit, it was off topic.

To answer your question the thief can't know that someone else would steal the car so the situations are not the same.

Professor Moriarty

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

This conversation had nothing to do with Brexit, it was off topic.

To answer your question the thief can't know that someone else would steal the car so the situations are not the same.

I would disagree. For instance, Britain may become less moral as a country when it leaves the EU.

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's a judgement call when it comes to commodities such as food.

Or to put it another way, stuff Ireland supplies.

Why exactly is this being discussed on a thread about the eu?

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I would disagree. For instance, Britain may become less moral as a country when it leaves the EU.

It may become more so.

VinLieger

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

This conversation had nothing to do with Brexit, it was off topic.

To answer your question the thief can't know that someone else would steal the car so the situations are not the same.

Okay lets do it this way then if he saw another thief coming down the road and he said to the first thief "first come first served, im taking it if you don't"

Using your logic the first thief is then morally clear of any wrong doing if he steals the car simply cus the second thief would have stolen the car if the first thief didn't?

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It may become more so.

Indeed. But my point was that discussion of Britain's morality as a country is very much on topic in the context of Brexit.

Iwasfrozen

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Are weapons made in every country exactly the same? Same price?

The ability of a weapon to commit atrocities is not linked to the cointry that sells the weapons. I imagine prices for comparable weapons aren't far off each other.

Professor Moriarty

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The ability of a weapon to commit atrocities is not linked to the cointry that sells the weapons. I imagine prices for comparable weapons aren't far off each other.

Of course it is. I'd rather buy a weapon made in the US than one made in Somalia but I could buy far more from Somalia as they would be cheaper.

Professor Moriarty

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Or to put it another way, stuff Ireland supplies.

Why exactly is this being discussed on a thread about the eu?

Could you please quote my entire post when replying to me.

Ireland? What's your point?

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Indeed. But my point was that discussion of Britain's morality as a country is very much on topic in the context of Brexit.

why?

will leaving the eu mean the uk exports more weapons to Saudi?

Fratton Fred

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Could you please quote my entire post when replying to me.

Ireland? What's your point?

you specifically mentioned food. Ireland sells a lot of food to Saudi.

But, why is this being discussed on a thread about Britain leaving the eu?