Brexit: The Last Stand (No name calling)

Enzokk

Enzokk wrote: »

I am sure she thinks she is the right person for the job, even GW Bush was happy that the 2008 GFC started with him still in office as he was under the impression he was the right person to deal with the crisis.

He also had the clear knowledge that in a few months he could walk away from it and let some other sucker take care of the fallout of whatever decisions he made.
Obama should count his lucky stars that wubble w didn't really screw it up for him.

fritzelly

Saw a program there just recently from the time Britain had a referendum on whether to join the EU, the placards and slogans of the time were something along the lines of "The young vote to join" - kinda the same as this time around
Yet all those "young" voters of the time are the ones who voted to leave
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/how-did-different-demographic-groups-vote-eu-referendum

Lot of vitriol in this thread about Britain leaving, yet other countries are eyeing them up as to what happens when it finally happens to see if they can get out of it too.
Not so long ago Hungary said they don't care what the EU tells them about immigrants - they are doing what they want to for example.

The only country that would likely be worse off is Ireland and they have already said they want to keep the relations as they were pre-EU

Capt'n Midnight

demfad wrote: »

You have been told repeatedly that this is incorrect. You have to obey the majority of the parliament as far as article 50 is concerned. No one else with or without a referendum.

Just a reminder that the recent votes in parliament were also advisory and not binding.

youreadthat

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

But is it what the 52% wanted? According to recent polling people that voted for this will not accept them being any worse off following the UK's departure. Given that this scenario is not likely to be possible since the key demand is an end to free movement which is unlikely to be compromised on by the EU poses a real dilemma for the UK. How can it deliver a Brexit that is at worst cost neutral from the outset?

Given the disparate views of what brexit should look like among the 52% (Hard, soft, medium) its hard to say that the 52% will be satisfied with whatever the UK government will come up with. Whatever plan the UK government comes up with a majority of UK citizens will be opposed to it.

The 48% on the other hand were a cohesive group arguing for the status quo.

What the hell? The remain argument spanned everything from "we'll help change and reform the EU from withing" to "full federalisation!" to "let's just tick along".

youreadthat

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

wanting your cake and eating it.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/10/poll-public-will-not-accept-brexit-worse-off-tim-farron-ukip-lib-dem-yougov?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Are we still trusting polls on complex questions like that when they can't figure out which of 2 boxes people will tick?

First Up

fritzelly wrote:

Lot of vitriol in this thread about Britain leaving, yet other countries are eyeing them up as to what happens when it finally happens to see if they can get out of it too. Not so long ago Hungary said they don't care what the EU tells them about immigrants - they are doing what they want to for example.

"Other countries" is a bit imprecise. Yes, there are anti-EU (and anti everything else) elements in every country but they include everything from communists to anarchists to ultra right-wing radicals and none of them have been put into government, or are capable of forming one.

Hungary has a reasonable point about immigrants and it is hardly a surprise to find that 27 countries don't always agree on everything.

But there is a bigger picture and most people see it.

VinLieger

Fratton Fred wrote: »

For pretty much the same reason children can't vote.

You understand what an analogy is yeah?

Dyr

First Up wrote: »

Hungary has a reasonable point about immigrants and it is hardly a surprise to find that 27 countries don't always agree on everything.

Bear in mind the one country that has repeatedly ignored the need for consensus on such matters is Germany, right back to them breaking ranks and unilaterally recognizing Serbia and Croatia

Angela didnt lick it off a stone

First Up

Bambi wrote:

Bear in mind the one country that has repeatedly ignored the need for consensus on such matters is Germany, right back to them breaking ranks and unilaterally recognizing Serbia and Croatia

There's plenty of issues on which EU members differ. At the moment, 23 EU member countries recognise Kosovo and 5 don't. Nobody is saying the EU should break up over it.

Capt'n Midnight

youreadthat wrote: »

Are we still trusting polls on complex questions like that when they can't figure out which of 2 boxes people will tick?

It wasn't a complex question and I think you'll find people are very focused when it comes to spending their own money.

And only 5% though leaving the EU was worth £100 a month.

Given the drop in sterling most people have already lost that much.

A Little Pony

The day of freedom is nearer.

Professor Moriarty

A Little Pony wrote: »

The day of freedom is nearer.

Are you being released from the asylum?

A Little Pony

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

The day of freedom is nearer.

Are you being released from the asylum?

No, Article 50 is being triggered soon, starting the process of gaining our sovereignty back and making our own laws and being an independent nation.

Fratton Fred

VinLieger wrote: »

You understand what an analogy is yeah?

I do, that just isn't a good one.

First Up

A Little Pony wrote:

No, Article 50 is being triggered soon, starting the process of gaining our sovereignty back and making our own laws and being an independent nation.

And you will all live happily ever after.

Iwasfrozen

steddyeddy wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It would be more treasonous to ignore the results of a referendum.

Isn't it advisory. Also the people were lied to.

If we were to discount the results of a referendum because the people were lied to we'd have to discount every referendum.

Don't you see what a dangerous precedent that would set?

Iwasfrozen

steddyeddy wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It would be more treasonous to ignore the results of a referendum.

Isn't it advisory. Also the people were lied to.

If we were to discount the results of a referendum because the people were lied to we'd have to discount every referendum.

Don't you see what a dangerous precedent that would set?

Iwasfrozen

I don't understand the whining that's going on in this forum. I didn't want Brexit but the vote happened and I accepted it. I didn't want Trump but the vote happened and I accepted it.

Some people here want the UK government to ignore a referendum result because they didn't get the result they want, some use excuse like "politicians told lies" to justify their position.

Dry up, if we were to discount a referendum because politicians told lies we'd never be able to have referendums.

The UK will leave the EU, the exact details have yet to be decided but it's time some people here accepted that and moved on.

Thousands of British people opposed membership of the EU but had to live with it, those who oppose the UK leaving will have to learn to live with it too.

marienbad

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't understand the whining that's going on in this forum. I didn't want Brexit but the vote happened and I accepted it. I didn't want Trump but the vote happened and I accepted it.

Some people here want the UK government to ignore a referendum result because they didn't get the result they want, some use excuse like "politicians told lies" to justify their position.

Dry up, if we were to discount a referendum because politicians told lies we'd never be able to have referendums.

The UK will leave the EU, the exact details have yet to be decided but it's time some people here accepted that and moved on.

Thousands of British people opposed membership of the EU but had to live with it, those who oppose the UK leaving will have to learn to live with it too.

I don't think anybody is whining as you put it , most have moved on but are fascinated watching a carcrash unfold , much like watching Republicans in the USA applauding the Putin hacking scandal , assuming there will be no consequences for them .

If anything it is the leave voters now getting what they wished and 'whining' the EU isn't rolling over for them ,

Professor Moriarty

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't understand the whining that's going on in this forum. I didn't want Brexit but the vote happened and I accepted it. I didn't want Trump but the vote happened and I accepted it.

Some people here want the UK government to ignore a referendum result because they didn't get the result they want, some use excuse like "politicians told lies" to justify their position.

Dry up, if we were to discount a referendum because politicians told lies we'd never be able to have referendums.

The UK will leave the EU, the exact details have yet to be decided but it's time some people here accepted that and moved on.

Thousands of British people opposed membership of the EU but had to live with it, those who oppose the UK leaving will have to learn to live with it too.

The Brexiteers lied before, during and after the referendum. If you want to passively accept being duped then simply stop worrying about the whole matter and avoid discussions about Brexit. Simples.

Iwasfrozen

marienbad wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't understand the whining that's going on in this forum. I didn't want Brexit but the vote happened and I accepted it. I didn't want Trump but the vote happened and I accepted it.

Some people here want the UK government to ignore a referendum result because they didn't get the result they want, some use excuse like "politicians told lies" to justify their position.

Dry up, if we were to discount a referendum because politicians told lies we'd never be able to have referendums.

The UK will leave the EU, the exact details have yet to be decided but it's time some people here accepted that and moved on.

Thousands of British people opposed membership of the EU but had to live with it, those who oppose the UK leaving will have to learn to live with it too.

I don't think anybody is whining as you put it , most have moved on but are fascinated watching a carcrash unfold , much like watching Republicans in the USA applauding the Putin hacking scandal , assuming there will be no consequences for them .

If anything it is the leave voters now getting what they wished and 'whining' the EU isn't rolling over for them ,

You must not be reading the same thread as I am. Either that or you're skipping over the posts wishing the Parliament would ignore the referendum results.

These people haven't gotten past stage one, accepting the results of the referendum, worry about the EU after that.

Iwasfrozen

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't understand the whining that's going on in this forum. I didn't want Brexit but the vote happened and I accepted it. I didn't want Trump but the vote happened and I accepted it.

Some people here want the UK government to ignore a referendum result because they didn't get the result they want, some use excuse like "politicians told lies" to justify their position.

Dry up, if we were to discount a referendum because politicians told lies we'd never be able to have referendums.

The UK will leave the EU, the exact details have yet to be decided but it's time some people here accepted that and moved on.

Thousands of British people opposed membership of the EU but had to live with it, those who oppose the UK leaving will have to learn to live with it too.

The Brexiteers lied before, during and after the referendum. If you want to passively accept being duped then simply stop worrying about the whole matter and avoid discussions about Brexit. Simples.

As I wrote in my post. It would be impossible to hold a referendum without one or both sides lieing so if that invalidates the results of a referendum in your eyes you must discount the results of any referendum.

marienbad

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You must not be reading the same thread as I am. Either that or you're skipping over the posts wishing the Parliament would ignore the referendum results.

These people haven't gotten past stage one, accepting the results of the referendum, worry about the EU after that.

I am reading the same thread . most of us here are not even from that jurisdiction , nobody is whinging about it , it is just possibly the most fascinating political story in the last 40 years so is bound to be discussed from every angle .

and it has major consequences for Ireland so why wouldn't we .

Professor Moriarty

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As I wrote in my post. It would be impossible to hold a referendum without one or both sides lieing so if that invalidates the results of a referendum in your eyes you must discount the results of any referendum.

So rather than discuss their lies and possible remedies, you would like everyone to shut up and accept that lies are inevitable. Rather defeatist attitude, if you don't mind me saying so. Maybe you are assuming that the referendum is absolute and binding. Many disagree with that position in case you weren't following recent developments.

Iwasfrozen

marienbad wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You must not be reading the same thread as I am. Either that or you're skipping over the posts wishing the Parliament would ignore the referendum results.

These people haven't gotten past stage one, accepting the results of the referendum, worry about the EU after that.

I am reading the same thread . most of us here are not even from that jurisdiction , nobody is whinging about it , it is just possibly the most fascinating political story in the last 40 years so is bound to be discussed from every angle .

and it has major consequences for Ireland so why wouldn't we .

No one has said this topic shouldn't be discussed.

But those who think Parliament should ignore the result need to grow up, dry up, and learn to respect democratic results they don't agree with.

There were thousands of Brits who until the referendum was called opposed the UK's membership but apart from voting UKIP just had to live with it. Pro EU Brits are now in the same position.

Iwasfrozen

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As I wrote in my post. It would be impossible to hold a referendum without one or both sides lieing so if that invalidates the results of a referendum in your eyes you must discount the results of any referendum.

So rather than discuss their lies and possible remedies, you would like everyone to shut up and accept that lies are inevitable. Rather defeatist attitude, if you don't mind me saying so. Maybe you are assuming that the referendum is absolute and binding. Many disagree with that position in case you weren't following recent developments.

As I've said. If you were to discount the results of a referendum because one or both sides told lies then you'd have to discount the results of every referendum. Actually it would be impossible to hold a referendum at all.

Since you're arguing Parliament should ignore the wishes of the majority of it s people then yes, I thin your arguments are inherently anti democratic.

Professor Moriarty

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

As I've said. If you were to discount the results of a referendum because one or both sides told lies then you'd have to discount the results of every referendum. Actually it would be impossible to hold a referendum at all.

Since you're arguing Parliament should ignore the wishes of the majority of it s people then yes, I thin your arguments are inherently anti democratic.

You really should inform yourself as to the legalities involved.

Nate--IRL--

Is the referendum binding? NO
Is Parliament going to respect it? YES

Can we now move on FFS? Jesus it's like fúcking groundhog day.

Nate

Iwasfrozen

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

You really should inform yourself as to the legalities involved.

You should look up the word democracy.

Professor Moriarty

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You should look up the word democracy.

Why?