Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

bilston

I think O'Mahony and Henderson may have played themselves into contention yesterday. Competitive positions mind.

d2ww

Fwiw, Stephen Jones in the Sunday Times came up with this

STEPHEN JONES’ SQUAD
Full-backs R Kearney (Ireland), L Halfpenny (Wales)
Wings A Watson (England), G North (Wales),
S Maitland (Scotland), L Williams (Wales)
Centres J Joseph (England), R Henshaw (Ireland), E Daly (England), O Farrell (England), S Williams (Wales)
Fly-halves J Sexton (Ireland), D Biggar (Wales)
Scrum-halves C Murray (Ireland), R Webb (Wales), G Davies (Wales)
No 8 B Vunipola (England), T Faletau (Wales)
Flankers M Itoje (England), J Haskell (England), CJ Stander (Ireland), S Warburton (Wales),
J Strauss (Scotland)
Locks AW Jones (Wales), L Charteris (Wales), C Lawes (England), J Launchbury (England)
Hookers D Hartley (England), J George (England), K Owens (Wales)
Props J Marler (England), M Vunipola (England), J McGrath (Ireland), T Furlong (Ireland), D Cole (England), K Sinckler (England

Faletau and Charteris would be a surprise

Cosmo Kramer

d2ww wrote: »

Fwiw, Stephen Jones in the Sunday Times came up with this

STEPHEN JONES’ SQUAD
Full-backs R Kearney (Ireland), L Halfpenny (Wales)
Wings A Watson (England), G North (Wales),
S Maitland (Scotland), L Williams (Wales)
Centres J Joseph (England), R Henshaw (Ireland), E Daly (England), O Farrell (England), S Williams (Wales)
Fly-halves J Sexton (Ireland), D Biggar (Wales)
Scrum-halves C Murray (Ireland), R Webb (Wales), G Davies (Wales)
No 8 B Vunipola (England), T Faletau (Wales)
Flankers M Itoje (England), J Haskell (England), CJ Stander (Ireland), S Warburton (Wales),
J Strauss (Scotland)
Locks AW Jones (Wales), L Charteris (Wales), C Lawes (England), J Launchbury (England)
Hookers D Hartley (England), J George (England), K Owens (Wales)
Props J Marler (England), M Vunipola (England), J McGrath (Ireland), T Furlong (Ireland), D Cole (England), K Sinckler (England

Faletau and Charteris would be a surprise

Gareth Davies? Josh Strauss? No Stuart Hogg, Rory Best or Justin Tipuric? Strange squad from a strange man.

blackcard

Erik Shin wrote: »

.ak wrote: »

No, it wouldn't have been deservedly so.

Wales have been fairly poor in all their games bar against us. I wasn't that impressed with them against England as much as people touted it as good game from them. They were awful against Italy and Scotland, and the less said about the France game the better.

OP has a perfectly good point, and if all you can do is use an emoticon to disagree with it then that says a lot more about his argument than yours.

Fair enough, i don't have time to debate this never ending.....
Wales played well against England, regardless of what you think...They beat us comfortably enough...And if results had gone differently yesterday, we'd have been fifth...Fine margins and all that ...Ireland beat a poor Italy, an average France and upped their performance completely and beat the English... Reality isn't something that some of ye deal with here, so I'm not bothered debating the point anymore, sound?

The "reality" is that Ireland finished second and Wales fifth. The "reality" is that results did not go different yesterday.

blackcard

Erik Shin wrote: »

.ak wrote: »

No, it wouldn't have been deservedly so.

Wales have been fairly poor in all their games bar against us. I wasn't that impressed with them against England as much as people touted it as good game from them. They were awful against Italy and Scotland, and the less said about the France game the better.

OP has a perfectly good point, and if all you can do is use an emoticon to disagree with it then that says a lot more about his argument than yours.

Fair enough, i don't have time to debate this never ending.....
Wales played well against England, regardless of what you think...They beat us comfortably enough...And if results had gone differently yesterday, we'd have been fifth...Fine margins and all that ...Ireland beat a poor Italy, an average France and upped their performance completely and beat the English... Reality isn't something that some of ye deal with here, so I'm not bothered debating the point anymore, sound?

The "reality" is that Ireland finished second and Wales fifth. The "reality" is that results did not go different yesterday.

Neil3030

Ho humm... what pack do I now want.... probably something like:

McGrath
Hartley
Furledge
Launchbury
AWJ
Itoje
Tipuric
Big Billy

One of Stander/POM and then Hendy on the bench... #datimpact

Elvisjuice

how long before the tour does the squad get named ?

Korat

Elvisjuice wrote: »

how long before the tour does the squad get named ?

19th of April apparently.

A couple of weeks earlier than last time.

Doesn't leave much time for anyone who had a poor 6N to play their way back into contention.

MJohnston

Korat wrote: »

Doesn't leave much time for anyone who had a poor 6N to play their way back into contention.

That's unlikely to happen even with an extra month of club games. Plenty of time for some injuries to clear up though.

pickarooney

Dog Botherer wrote: »

I know AWJ will almost definitely travel on reputation but he's in shocking form. Shouldn't be anywhere near the test side but I could see Gatland giving him the captaincy.

He picked up a potentially serious injury yesterday too.

Why does everyone seem to rate George so much? How often do you see him play?

Elvisjuice

Korat wrote: »

19th of April apparently.

A couple of weeks earlier than last time.

Doesn't leave much time for anyone who had a poor 6N to play their way back into contention.

thanks

thomond2006

Korat wrote: »

19th of April apparently.

A couple of weeks earlier than last time.

Doesn't leave much time for anyone who had a poor 6N to play their way back into contention.

So that's before the European semi-finals. Munster's 2009 QF demolition of the Ospreys was a big reason IMO they had such a large contingent selected.

Clegg wrote: »

In.a recent interview Gatland said the Lions captain is a hugely important position but not one which necessarily implies a starting berth in the test matches. Can see one of Best or AWJ getting the captaincy but not stepping on the field against New Zealand. Although Best would be more likely to start as there's not much quality at hooker.

Launchbury, Itoje, Grey Bros and Lawes had better tournaments than AWJ. Even Kruis, when he returns, is in with a shout. Excellent lock forward.

This screams something that Gatland has to say for PR purposes but where the opposite is true. The captain is going to start the tests.

Former Former

So after the Six Nations, I'd guess at:

Locked In:
McGrath, Hartley, Furlong, Cole
Launchbury, AWJ
Itoje, Warburton, Stander
Murray, Webb
Sexton, Farrell
Henshaw, North, L Williams, Daly, Hogg

Probables:
M. Vunipola, Best, Cole
J. Gray
Tipuric, B. Vunipola
Youngs
J. Davies, Joseph

In with a good shout:
Marler, Healy, George, Owens, Sinckler
Lawes, Henderson, R. Gray
O'Brien, Heaslip, Haskell, Strauss
G. Davies
Ford, Biggar
Ringrose, S. Williams
Nowell, Seymour, Brown, Zebo, Kearney

Don't deserve to go but probably will anyway:
Faletau, Halfpenny

Some guys will need to do less than others to move up a group, eg Billy Vunipola just needs not to get injured again and he'll be locked in.

EDIT: Earls is probably in with a shout too.

Buer

With the dust settling, I reckon there's a handful of Irish guys already on the plane now.

Sexton, Murray, McGrath, Stander, Furlong and Henshaw are all going to NZ this summer, I believe.

There are others that I think are in the mix but are as likely to travel as they are to miss out. Heaslip, Payne, Best, Healy and I think Earls and Ringrose have quietly moved into an outside chance too.

In terms of those who have probably gone backwards in the pecking order I would say Kearney is out of contention now for the most part. Zebo was looking a likely tourist and is now looking very shakey due to the performances of others elsewhere. SOB has not had a strong tournament and the two Welsh opensides have gone very well making him potentially surplus.

We've an outside shot of a lock travelling but I don't think any of them will. They're all too inconsistent and none have had a stand out big performance where the likes of Johnny Gray or Joe Launchbury have comfortably delivered there. Itoje will travel as the dual option. AWJ will go too. I'd imagine one last lock will go and that will probably go to another English lock although I wouldn't rule out the other Gray or even Jake Ball who has gone about his business quietly.

irishbucsfan

I think Itoje will travel as a lock. Makes sense for England to use him in the back row but I can't see Gatland doing that in his pack.

Its very early but I really think Warburton and Stander will be test Lions, so the question for me really is whether they're thinking of playing Stander at 6 and Warburton at 7 or Warburton at 6 and Stander at 8. I think the rest of the puzzle fills in from there, because they'll only bring 2 8s and Vunipola will be one of them.

FellasFellas

Why would Hartley go unless he's the captain? He doesn't do a lot on field, always goes off around 50/55 and always holds the risk of doing something stupid. Unless he's captain which he certainly won't be, I really don't think he's worth travelling.

Buer

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think Itoje will travel as a lock. Makes sense for England to use him in the back row but I can't see Gatland doing that in his pack.

Its very early but I really think Warburton and Stander will be test Lions, so the question for me really is whether they're thinking of playing Stander at 6 and Warburton at 7 or Warburton at 6 and Stander at 8. I think the rest of the puzzle fills in from there, because they'll only bring 2 8s and Vunipola will be one of them.

I think the make up of the back row could be tactical. I don't see Stander getting the 6 jersey if Vunipola is at 8. I think they'll go for someone who can challenge on opposition ball thows which Itoje offers. Stander and Vunipola would leave a massive amount of donkey work to go to Warburton.

At this point, if I had to guess the Lions pack, I'd go with:

McGrath, Owens (stop sniggering), Furlong, Launchbury, AWJ, Itoje, Warburton, Vunipola.

I think Stander's flexibility and strong carrying makes him a good option for the 20 jersey in the same way we saw SOB there 4 years ago.

English Lurker

I'm very surprised no one's been touting POM as a back row lineout option who can actually play back row.

Gatland's been making some comments - namechecked Kruis as a good lineout caller (despite him being injured) and pointed out that Hartley's under pressure from George and that there's Best and Owens as well. Probably made some others too but those were the ones that stuck in my mind.

Buer

English Lurker wrote: »

I'm very surprised no one's been touting POM as a back row lineout option who can actually play back row.

I think he's under consideration but I also think he's up against it due to the timing of things. If he had been given that opportunity in week 4 and managed to start another game, he'd have a stronger case.

The fact is that he had a great game at the weekend. But prior to that he got 13 minutes against France and 18 minutes against Wales where he didn't get an opportunity to do anything.

He also suffers from not having any history withe the selectors. He was overlooked in 2013 too after having a good 6N tournament for Tom Croft who he was probably playing better than. Croft barely featured in the 6N due to injury but had money in the bank from 2009, though.

If we go through all of the options for the back row, there's going to be a quality player disappointed. I think Stander, Tipuric, Warburton and Itoje are all on the plane (Itoje as a lock/flanker). Going on 2013's selection, that leaves one more spot for a flanker.

SOB has history with Gatland and was a key member of the winning team in 2013. I don't think he deserves it but will be under consideration. Haskell has had a big 12 months and plays across the back row also.

Then there's Ross Moriarty who went to NZ and played as a flanker in 3 tests last summer, having a strong tour. I don't see him mentioned much of late but he's in the discussion too.

There's an outside bet that Gatland might seek to go with more than one dual lock and look at someone like Henderson to cover blindside also.

I think POM is in the mix, undoubtedly, but for him to make the plane, he's going to have to tear it up in the ECC now to back up the weekend and force Gatland's hand. He might well do it too.

English Lurker

You might be right about Gatland's logic, but if I was picking I'd have him pencilled in. But then, like most other English fans I know, I'm now of the opinion that the less Itoje plays at flanker the better.

I think Gatland's mentioned an intention to take more players than last time; an extra lock/back row might be one of the guys he brings along if he does.

Tigerandahalf

The one advantage POM has is that he has very little rugby played and would be very fresh for a tour. The likes of Itoje could be playing in the European cup final the week before they travel after a long season upto that.

I also don't think Itoje is mobile enough for 6 given that NZ will be moving the play around quite a bit. If they were playing S Africa maybe Itoje would be a better fit at 6.

I would reckon POM would make a great tourist too and he has always been seen as a great leader.

It is likely that NZ will attack the Lions' lineout as the Lions will probably use the maul tactic quite a bit. That would mean a 3rd option in the lineout being vital. Warburton is an option but POM does offer more defensively in the lineout too.

I can only see B Vunipola at 8 at the moment. I suppose the question is if you have Warburton at 7 does POM at 6 give you enough carriers?

Stander looks a good option as sub cover for 6/8.

Clegg

Despite not having a great 6N I think SoB has a very good chance of being selected. As.was mentioned, he performed well in the last Lions tour and he also raises his game against NZ. He was exceptional in the second test at the Aviva in November.

It may be a case if bringing him to play him into form for the test side. SoB at his best is possibly the best backrow in Europe.

Lancher

Lancher wrote: »

Based on original squad numbers in 2013.
Only includes players fit to play in 6N to date and who have not picked up an injury.

3 LH Props Healy, McGrath & Marler
3 TH Props Furlong, Cole & Fagerson
3 Hookers Best, George & Hartley
5 Locks Gray, Gray, AWJ, Itoje & Henderson
5 Flankers O'Brien, Tipuric, Warburton, Stander & Haskell
2 No8 Faletau, Heaslip
3 Scrumhalves Murray, Webb & Youngs
2 Flyhalves Biggar, Jackson
4 Centres Farrell, Henshaw, Davies, Ringrose
4 Wings Zebo, Williams, Nowell & Daly
3 Fullbacks Hogg, Brown & Halfpenny

Notable names not considered include Vunipola, Vunipola, Kruis, Sexton, North & Robshaw.

Eng 11 Ire 13 Sco 4 Wal 9

It may seem odd to have more Irish than English or Welsh but Warrenball might be ditched in an attempt to outplay the ABs. Ireland's win in Chicago could be the template for B&I Lions.

3 LH Props Healy, McGrath & Vunipola
3 TH Props Furlong, Cole & Fagerson
3 Hookers Best, George & Owens
5 Locks J. Gray, Launchbury, AWJ (R.Gray/D Ryan if AWJ out), Itoje & Henderson
5 Flankers O'Mahoney, Tipuric, Warburton, Stander & Haskell
2 No8 Vunipola, Heaslip
3 Scrumhalves Murray, Webb & Youngs
2 Flyhalves Farrell, Sexton
4 Centres Jones, Henshaw, Joseph & Ringrose
4 Wings North, Williams, Seymour & Daly
3 Fullbacks Hogg, Brown & Payne

Tour Captain Rory Best

Test team
1&3 - Easy call. McGrath & Furlong - strongest scrum in the 6N.
2 - No real stand out hooker - Rory ahead of Owens on leadership. George ahead of Hartley who is anonymous if not being carded for something.
4&5 - Itoje is better in the row than at 6 and Launchbury was consistently excellent throughout the 6N.
6&7 - Tipuric and Warburton are the best combination on the flanks. They stopped every team from opening up a poor Welsh side. Huge tackle count for both as well as poach threat.
8 - Billy was poor against Ireland but still the best option.
9 - Murray is all round the best SH though Webb will put pressure on him.
10 - Sexton. Different class, so much better than the rest.
11 - North. No real competition here.
12 - Henshaw. Makes yards where there's none. Offloads, tackles, clear outs. Farrell is not enough of playmaking 12 to keep Henshaw out.
13 - Ringrose. No outstanding candidate again. Joseph is quick and strong. Passing is poor though. Defensively both get caught occasionally. Ringrose just has a little more potential for me.
14 - Elliot Daly edges it though he'll have to switch wings. Williams will push to start though.
15 - Hogg. No contest. Occasionally suspect tackling but going forward....

Bench
Owens - consistency and experience
Vunipola - scrummaging may be iffy but he's a quality rugby player.
Cole - no pens please Dan
J. Gray - a proper lock to cover lock
O'Mahoney - old dog for the hard road. Covers 8 too.
Webb - will push to start if tactics require a change in style.
Farrell - covers 10 & 12. Covers 13 too with Henshaw moving outside.
Williams - Covers back three

Eng 12 Ire 13 Sco 5 Wal 7

Webbs

15 Hogg (defensively suspect but has real X factor)
14 Williams
13 Henshaw (move Henshaw to his best position finally)
12 Farrell
11 North
10 Sexton
9 Murray (but Webb pushing very very close, depends on how expansive game plan is)

1 McGrath (props these days are really a unit of starter/finisher, Vunipola probably offers more impact)
2 Owens
3 Furlong
4 AWJ (c)
5 Launchbury
6 Warburton
7 Haskell
8 Vuinipola

Subs
With both Farrell and Sexton on the pitch I don’t see a specialist 10 needed for the bench

Vuinipola
Cole
Best
Itoje
Webb
Daly
Joseph
Stander (though just as easily J Gray as specialist lock)

CMOTDibbler

Just for a different view, here are the selections from The Telegraph's rugby journos. Mostly the same, but a few interesting ones there. These are their picks for the first test.

|Mick Cleary|Brian Moore|Kenny Logan|Gavin Mairs|Daniel Schofield|Tom Cary|Richard Bath|James Corrigan
15|Stuart Hogg |Stuart Hogg |Stuart Hogg |Rob Kearney |Stuart Hogg |Stuart Hogg |Stuart Hogg |Stuart Hogg
14|George North |George North |George North |George North |Tommy Seymour |George North |George North |George North
13|Jonathan Joseph |Garry Ringrose |Jonathan Joseph |Jonathan Joseph |Jonathan Joseph |Jonathan Joseph |Garry Ringrose |Robbie Henshaw
12|Owen Farrell |Owen Farrell |Owen Farrell |Owen Farrell |Robbie Henshaw |Owen Farrell |Owen Farrell |Owen Farrell
11|Elliot Daly |Liam Williams |Elliot Daly |Elliot Daly |Elliot Daly |Elliot Daly |Elliot Daly |Elliot Daly
10|Jonathan Sexton |Jonathan Sexton |Jonathan Sexton |Jonathan Sexton |Owen Farrell |Jonathan Sexton |Jonathan Sexton |Jonathan Sexton
9|Conor Murray |Conor Murray |Conor Murray |Conor Murray |Conor Murray |Conor Murray |Rhys Webb |Rhys Webb
1|Mako Vunipola |Joe Marler |Jack McGrath |Mako Vunipola |Mako Vunipola |Mako Vunipola |Jack McGrath |Mako Vunipola
2|Jamie George | Ken Owens | Jamie George |Rory Best |Rory Best |Dylan Hartley |Rory Best |Rory Best
3|Tadhg Furlong |Tadhg Furlong |Tadhg Furlong |Tadhg Furlong |Tadhg Furlong |Tadhg Furlong |Tadhg Furlong |Tadhg Furlong
4|Courtney Lawes |Joe Launchbury |Maro Itoje |Alun Wyn Jones |Alun Wyn Jones |Maro Itoje |Maro Itoje |Courtney Lawes
5|Joe Launchbury |Alun Wyn Jones |Courtney Lawes |Joe Launchbury |Maro Itoje |Alun Wyn Jones |Alun Wyn Jones |Alun Wyn Jones
6|CJ Stander |CJ Stander |CJ Stander |Maro Itoje |Peter O’Mahony |Peter O’Mahony |CJ Stander |Maro Itoje
7|Sam Warburton |Justin Tipuric |Sam Warburton |Sean O’Brien |Sam Warburton |James Haskell |Sam Warburton |Billy Vunipola
8|Billy Vunipola |Billy Vunipola |Ross Moriarty |Billy Vunipola |Billy Vunipola |Billy Vunipola |Jamie Heaslip |Sam Warburton


It seems a bit unfair that Maro Itoje gets to play in three different positions

Buer

I find it incredible that none of them have selected Jonathan Davies at 13 and only one has called on Liam Williams.

I also find it odd that 5 see MV as the starter after he failed to get back into the England side.

Furlong and Farrell the only unanimous selections. Hogg, Sexton and Daly in 7 sides. BV in 6 teams as are Murray, AWJ and Itoje.

Daly aside, I reckon those lads are all very likely to make the test side at this point.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

I find it incredible that none of them have selected Jonathan Davies at 13 and only one has called on Liam Williams.

I also find it odd that 5 see MV as the starter after he failed to get back into the England side.

Furlong and Farrell the only unanimous selections. Hogg, Sexton and Daly in 7 sides. BV in 6 teams as are Murray, AWJ and Itoje.

Daly aside, I reckon those lads are all very likely to make the test side at this point.

North nearly unanimous as well

EDIT: Gavin Mairs would want to keep an eye out after that fullback selection, he might make some enemies around here!

CMOTDibbler

irishbucsfan wrote: »

North nearly unanimous as well

EDIT: Gavin Mairs would want to keep an eye out after that fullback selection, he might make some enemies around here!

Richard Bath also living on the edge

Tigerandahalf

Interesting that someone mentioned no need for outhalf cover. It would certainly make a difference to have an extra oitside back to come off the bench.

At the moment only Daly, L Williams and possibly Payne can offer enough cover for all positions but with 2 back options you could have a lot better impact off the bench.

Webbs

I dont really get the Joseph love in, OK he had a flier against Scotland but against any team that actually defended in the centre channels he was OK but didnt set the world alight.
Thought his defence was a little suspect, though there is little doubting his strengths as a stepper off both feet, this is NZ we are talking about not Scotlands Red Sea defence.
At 13 I would have Henshaw, Davies and Daly ahead of him