Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

letowski

I think Jack McGrath has lost a bit of ground after the tournament. Looked like a solid bet for the LH slot as Mako has been injured, but if he keeps up his current form he wont start.

FellasFellas

FB: Hogg, Halfpenny
Wings: North, Daly, Watson, Nowell, Liam Williams
Centres: Henshaw, Scott Williams, Ringrose, Davies
Outhalves: Sexton, Farrell, Biggar/Russell
Scrumhalves: Murray, Webb, Youngs

Props: Vunipola, McGrath, Healy; Furlong, Cole, Lee
Hookers: Best, George, Ken Owens
Second Rows: Gray x2, Itoje, AWJ, Launchbury
Flankers: Warburton, Stander, Tipuric, H Watson, O'Mahony
Number 8's: Vunipola, Faletau

Cosmo Kramer

I think SOB has played his way off the plane at this stage, he has had a poor tournament. O'Mahony may have just played his way onto the plane yesterday. Other than that I don't think yesterday will make too much difference to the Irish players chances, the ones that were always going will still go.

For a team that finished fifth in a five horse race Wales are going to be seriously over represented on tour. Scotland had a better tournament and comfortably beat Wales but beyond Hogg and Jonny Gray who have they as candidates really? And that's being kind to Gray because he fell way short of the hype put out about him here in Scotland. You'd have sworn he was the new Brodie Retallick the way some people were going on about him. Too many Scottish players had a disaster against England, but still I cant see them not getting a token third player, the same as last time, probably either Seymour or Huw Jones because there aren't too many good options in the outside backs. .

Anyway here's what I would predict at this stage (includes excess Welsh players to allow for Gatty being the coach):

Jack McGrath
Mako Vunipola
Rob Evans

Dylan Hartley
Rory Best
Ken Owens

Tadhg Furlong
Dan Cole
Samson Lee

Alun Wyn Jones
Joe Launchbury
Maro Itoje
Jonny Gray
George Kruis (if fit)

CJ Stander
Peter O'Mahony
Sam Warburton
Justin Tipuric
Billy Vunipola
Ross Moriarty

Conor Murray
Rhys Webb
Ben Youngs

Jonathan Sexton
Dan Biggar

Owen Farrell
Jonathan Joseph
Robbie Henshaw
Jonathan Davies
Elliott Daly

Anthony Watson
Liam Williams
George North
Leigh Halfpenny
Tommy Seymour

Mike Brown
Stuart Hogg

13 English, 13 Welsh, eight Irish and three Scots in there.

Erik Shin

To say Wales finished 5th is a bit disingenuous...If France hadn't scored that 146th minute try, they'd have been second ..And probably deservedly so

Littlehorny

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I think SOB has played his way off the plane at this stage, he has had a poor tournament. O'Mahony may have just played his way onto the plane yesterday. Other than that I don't think yesterday will make too much difference to the Irish players chances, the ones that were always going will still go.

For a team that finished fifth in a five horse race Wales are going to be seriously over represented on tour. Scotland had a better tournament and comfortably beat Wales but beyond Hogg and Jonny Gray who have they as candidates really? And that's being kind to Gray because he fell way short of the hype put out about him here in Scotland. You'd have sworn he was the new Brodie Retallick the way some people were going on about him. Too many Scottish players had a disaster against England, but still I cant see them not getting a token third player, the same as last time, probably either Seymour or Huw Jones because there aren't too many good options in the outside backs. .

Anyway here's what I would predict at this stage (includes excess Welsh players to allow for Gatty being the coach):

Jack McGrath
Mako Vunipola
Rob Evans

Dylan Hartley
Rory Best
Ken Owens

Tadhg Furlong
Dan Cole
Samson Lee

Alun Wyn Jones
Joe Launchbury
Maro Itoje
Jonny Gray
George Kruis (if fit)

CJ Stander
Peter O'Mahony
Sam Warburton
Justin Tipuric
Billy Vunipola
Ross Moriarty

Conor Murray
Rhys Webb
Ben Youngs

Jonathan Sexton
Dan Biggar

Owen Farrell
Jonathan Joseph
Robbie Henshaw
Jonathan Davies
Elliott Daly

Anthony Watson
Liam Williams
George North
Leigh Halfpenny
Tommy Seymour

Mike Brown
Stuart Hogg

13 English, 13 Welsh, eight Irish and three Scots in there.

Exactly, Wales will have 3 to 4 lucky ones going, meaning 3 to 4 guys will miss out. But thats life, the selection will live or die on how well they perform over there.
Your spot on about O Brien alright, like Halpenny he has played his way off the squad. I am surprised that Mike Brown is on nobody elses selection to go as a full back option, surely he's playing better stuff than Halpenny?

Bridge93

If any Welsh front rowers go it's a bad indictment of the game in the NH

stadedublinois

Patrick McC wrote: »

If Italian and French players could be selected, Picamoles and Parisse would be in. I'd also pick Fickou and Serin.

Guirado and Slimani would be in the squad too and Gourdon has had a great 6 nations. Fofana too if he was fit.

MJohnston

Erik Shin wrote: »

To say Wales finished 5th is a bit disingenuous...If France hadn't scored that 146th minute try, they'd have been second ..And probably deservedly so

It's not disingenuous - they didn't stop France scoring, and they actually finished 5th. It's perfectly accurate!

Erik Shin

MJohnston wrote: »

It's not disingenuous - they didn't stop France scoring, and they actually finished 5th. It's perfectly accurate!

And again :rolleyes:

Former Former

Bridge93 wrote: »

If any Welsh front rowers go it's a bad indictment of the game in the NH

I think Ken Owens will be in mix. Hookers will most likely be Hartley, Best and George but Owens won't be far off.

Cosmo Kramer

Erik Shin wrote: »

To say Wales finished 5th is a bit disingenuous...If France hadn't scored that 146th minute try, they'd have been second ..And probably deservedly so

Actually, if they'd held on at the end that would only have got them up to fourth, ahead of France but still in last place of the four countries that make up the Lions.

Bridge93 wrote: »

If any Welsh front rowers go it's a bad indictment of the game in the NH

I agree but the front row options are limited enough, especially at tight head. I expect Owens will go at Hooker, there's no standout Hooker so anyone selected could end up being the starting number 2.

Marler had a stinker yesterday which might open up a loose head slot. Personally I'd pick Healy all day ahead of Evans but he isn't first choice for club or country so Evans might get the spot.

Nel's injury is a blow at tighthead because after Furlong and Cole there isn't much else to pick from. Fagerson is a hopeless scrummager and we've seen very little of Kyle Sinkler. Tomas Francis was a disaster yesterday so that really just leaves Samson Lee unless I'm forgetting someone. An injury to Furlong would be a disaster for the Lions.

Having taken so much punishment yesterday and come through smiling I'd say Sexton is in poll position for test starter. Provided he stays fit for the rest of the season of course.

CIARAN_BOYLE

I expect Leinster to be the club with the biggest contribution to the Lions squad. At least 3 props, a backrow an outhalf and a centre to travel. Possibly a lock and and another backrow and a centre too.

FellasFellas

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Actually, if they'd held on at the end that would only have got them up to fourth, ahead of France but still in last place of the four countries that make up the Lions.



I agree but the front row options are limited enough, especially at tight head. I expect Owens will go at Hooker, there's no standout Hooker so anyone selected could end up being the starting number 2.

Marler had a stinker yesterday which might open up a loose head slot. Personally I'd pick Healy all day ahead of Evans but he isn't first choice for club or country so Evans might get the spot.

Nel's injury is a blow at tighthead because after Furlong and Cole there isn't much else to pick from. Fagerson is a hopeless scrummager and we've seen very little of Kyle Sinkler. Tomas Francis was a disaster yesterday so that really just leaves Samson Lee unless I'm forgetting someone. An injury to Furlong would be a disaster for the Lions.

I'd actually bring Sinckler as a bolter, I think he's hugely talented and would be a perfect midweek game player down there. Lee is ok, but I would go for Furlong, Cole and Sinckler.

Dog Botherer

The English press love Cole but I don't get it. He's either stable at scrumtime or gets absolutely rinsed, with no in between, and I can't recall a game in recent memory where he didn't give away at least one stupid penalty at the breakdown.

He'll probably travel due to lack of options, but no way should he start.

.ak

Dog Botherer wrote: »

The English press love Cole but I don't get it. He's either stable at scrumtime or gets absolutely rinsed, with no in between, and I can't recall a game in recent memory where he didn't give away at least one stupid penalty at the breakdown.

He'll probably travel due to lack of options, but no way should he start.

He's a decent engine, gets around the field, and is technically sound at the breakdown, and so makes his presence felt outside of the set pieces. People pick up on that.

He's a good player and I'd be happy to see him in the squad.

.ak

Erik Shin wrote: »

To say Wales finished 5th is a bit disingenuous...If France hadn't scored that 146th minute try, they'd have been second ..And probably deservedly so

No, it wouldn't have been deservedly so.

Wales have been fairly poor in all their games bar against us. I wasn't that impressed with them against England as much as people touted it as good game from them. They were awful against Italy and Scotland, and the less said about the France game the better.

Based on what we saw this season England, Ireland, France and Scotland were better than them. They finished 5th and that was deserved.

OP has a perfectly good point, and if all you can do is use an emoticon to disagree with it then that says a lot more about his argument than yours.

Erik Shin

.ak wrote: »

No, it wouldn't have been deservedly so.

Wales have been fairly poor in all their games bar against us. I wasn't that impressed with them against England as much as people touted it as good game from them. They were awful against Italy and Scotland, and the less said about the France game the better.

OP has a perfectly good point, and if all you can do is use an emoticon to disagree with it then that says a lot more about his argument than yours.

Fair enough, i don't have time to debate this never ending.....
Wales played well against England, regardless of what you think...They beat us comfortably enough...And if results had gone differently yesterday, we'd have been fifth...Fine margins and all that ...Ireland beat a poor Italy, an average France and upped their performance completely and beat the English... Reality isn't something that some of ye deal with here, so I'm not bothered debating the point anymore, sound?

jacothelad

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I think SOB has played his way off the plane at this stage, he has had a poor tournament. O'Mahony may have just played his way onto the plane yesterday. Other than that I don't think yesterday will make too much difference to the Irish players chances, the ones that were always going will still go.

For a team that finished fifth in a five horse race Wales are going to be seriously over represented on tour. Scotland had a better tournament and comfortably beat Wales but beyond Hogg and Jonny Gray who have they as candidates really? And that's being kind to Gray because he fell way short of the hype put out about him here in Scotland. You'd have sworn he was the new Brodie Retallick the way some people were going on about him. Too many Scottish players had a disaster against England, but still I cant see them not getting a token third player, the same as last time, probably either Seymour or Huw Jones because there aren't too many good options in the outside backs. .

Anyway here's what I would predict at this stage (includes excess Welsh players to allow for Gatty being the coach):

Jack McGrath
Mako Vunipola
Rob Evans

Dylan Hartley
Rory Best
Ken Owens

Tadhg Furlong
Dan Cole
Samson Lee

Alun Wyn Jones
Joe Launchbury
Maro Itoje
Jonny Gray
George Kruis (if fit)

CJ Stander
Peter O'Mahony
Sam Warburton
Justin Tipuric
Billy Vunipola
Ross Moriarty

Conor Murray
Rhys Webb
Ben Youngs

Jonathan Sexton
Dan Biggar

Owen Farrell
Jonathan Joseph
Robbie Henshaw
Jonathan Davies
Elliott Daly

Anthony Watson
Liam Williams
George North
Leigh Halfpenny
Tommy Seymour

Mike Brown
Stuart Hogg

13 English, 13 Welsh, eight Irish and three Scots in there.

I don't think Ken Owens will make it unless it is at the expense of either Best or Hartley and both are better player. England's best hooker isn't Hartley.

Samson Lee isn't the Welsh starting 3 and there are far better tight heads than him playing in the Premiership. Kyle Sinckler for one. If Lee goes it will be one of the great mysteries of sport alongside people touting Nel as a cert to travel...... until he got injured.

MJohnston

Erik Shin wrote: »

Fair enough, i don't have time to debate this never ending.....
Wales played well against England, regardless of what you think...They beat us comfortably enough...And if results had gone differently yesterday, we'd have been fifth...Fine margins and all that ...Ireland beat a poor Italy, an average France and upped their performance completely and beat the English... Reality isn't something that some of ye deal with here, so I'm not bothered debating the point anymore, sound?

Now you're being slightly disingenuous - things would have had to have gone very differently yesterday for us to finish fifth. Namely - us losing to England with no LBP, and Wales beating France but giving them a LBP. Regardless, the final table position is rather unimportant to qualifying relative performances, insofar as it's about more than just a win-loss record.

Tigerandahalf

It will be interesting to see how many props will go. Will he take 3 of each?

Finlay Bealham is an interesting option as he can cover both sides quite well. I could see him being called up as an injury replacement.

I thought Cian Healy was a weak link when he came on in the scrum. The ref could have easily pinged him more than the 1 occasion he did.

He has never been a great scrummager and with his injury record he may not be the best option.

I think Evans has played quite well at LH for Wales. He gave Furlong plenty to think about in the Wales game.

FellasFellas

We may see a decision like 2013 where Robshaw as England captain did not travel; I know the backrow was a lot more competitive then than hooker is now. It's just grim for Jamie George who is miles better than Hartley and will not attract controversy is likely to miss out on a Test spot because of that clown.

Clegg

I'll need to have a look back at the game but from what I remember Healy had Sinckler in all sorts of bother.

.ak

.ak wrote: »

I'm going just doing this for my own entertainment... want to look back at this AFTER the 6N has finished, but my pre-6N 23 based on form from Europe and a little guess work...

01. M. Vunipola
02. Hartley
03. Furlong
04. Iotje
05. AWJ
06. Stander
07. Warburton
08. Heaslip
09. Murray
10. Farrell
11. North
12. Henshaw
13. Davies
14. Byrne (thanks Will!)
15. Hogg

16. Best
17. McGrath
18. Cole
19. Henderson
20. SOB
21. Youngs
22. Russell
23. L. Williams

Okay, so wanted to have a look at this after the tournament.

Has much changed? Yeah, obviously a bit of a stab in the dark on some players (Byrne :P) but not much has changed. I think based on the 6N form to date we'll see the following (changes in bold);

01. M. Vunipola
02. Hartley
03. Furlong
04. Iotje
05. AWJ
06. Stander
07. Warburton
08. B. Vunipola
09. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Williams
12. Farrell
13. Davies
14. North
15. Hogg

16. Best
17. Healy
18. Cole
19. Lawes
20. SOB
21. Youngs
22. Ford
23. Daly

EDIT: Thought it might be worth totting up the nationalities...

England: 10
Ireland: 7
Wales: 5
Scotland: 1

Dog Botherer

I know AWJ will almost definitely travel on reputation but he's in shocking form. Shouldn't be anywhere near the test side but I could see Gatland giving him the captaincy.

.ak

Dog Botherer wrote: »

I know AWJ will almost definitely travel on reputation but he's in shocking form. Shouldn't be anywhere near the test side but I could see Gatland giving him the captaincy.

I think having an old vet like that in the row is important. Sometimes guys offer a lot more than just footballing. He's one of them, I think he's a brilliant leader. He'd be my choice for Captain too.

Clegg

In.a recent interview Gatland said the Lions captain is a hugely important position but not one which necessarily implies a starting berth in the test matches. Can see one of Best or AWJ getting the captaincy but not stepping on the field against New Zealand. Although Best would be more likely to start as there's not much quality at hooker.

Launchbury, Itoje, Grey Bros and Lawes had better tournaments than AWJ. Even Kruis, when he returns, is in with a shout. Excellent lock forward.

Dog Botherer

.ak wrote: »

I think having an old vet like that in the row is important. Sometimes guys offer a lot more than just footballing. He's one of them, I think he's a brilliant leader. He'd be my choice for Captain too.

If you want a gnarly veteran lock then at least take one whose form isn't in the toilet. I'd take Donnacha Ryan over AWJ right now, barring an absolutely spectacular change in form.

irishbucsfan

There's a huge demand for rugby IQ on these tours, AWJ will tour and I'd say he'll be in the team come the tests.

Cosmo Kramer

jacothelad wrote: »

I don't think Ken Owens will make it unless it is at the expense of either Best or Hartley and both are better player. England's best hooker isn't Hartley.

Samson Lee isn't the Welsh starting 3 and there are far better tight heads than him playing in the Premiership. Kyle Sinckler for one. If Lee goes it will be one of the great mysteries of sport alongside people touting Nel as a cert to travel...... until he got injured.

Owens had a decent enough six nations, I'd be surprised if Gatland didn't pick him. Similar with Lee, being Welsh will definitely be an advantage here, a bit like Joe picking so many Leinster players in his early days as Ireland coach there's always a liklihood that a coach will stick to what he knows when there's a close call between a few players. Plus, as far as we know, Gatland intends to return to the Wales job, which could be a factor.

If I was picking my own squad I'd probably pick one, at most, of the Wales front row but it's Gatland making the final call and assuming he goes for nine front row players I could see all three of them going.

One thing that's missing is a prop that is genuinely able to cover both sides. Someone mentioned Bealham and if he had held off John Ryan for the Ireland 18 shirt he'd have been a real contender. But between missing that and Connacht missing the ECC quarters his chance has probably gone.

At this stage I'm not sure where a genuine bolter might come from. I don't think Elliot Daly counts because he's been around for a while now, Sinckler maybe if there are injuries. At one point I thought someone like Hamish Watson or Fraser Brown might get into the mix, but probably not after what happened in Twickenham last week. I'd be surprised if Ringrose makes it also.