Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

Teferi

https://twitter.com/Old_Pens_RFC/status/773199974800748544



MOD WARNING: This thread or the Lions tour is not to be used as a provincial pissing contest. Any provincial bickering or jabbing will result in bans.

awec

Well that is some awful news right there.

molloyjh

Ah we all knew he'd be named as coach. Its disappointing but as it stands I can't see Ireland being hugely represented anyway. Combine that with Gatland as coach and NZ as our opponents (and what that means competitively) and it's not something that's going to garner huge interest here. It's a foregone conclusion with little Irish involvement.

ClanofLams

awec wrote: »

Well that is some awful news right there.

Depends on your perspective. Ireland keep Schmidt for the 6N is more important for me.

Teferi

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah we all knew he'd be named as coach. Its disappointing but as it stands I can't see Ireland being hugely represented anyway. Combine that with Gatland as coach and NZ as our opponents (and what that means competitively) and it's not something that's going to garner huge interest here. It's a foregone conclusion with little Irish involvement.

What irish players do you reckon will be involved? Do you think it will be majority English/Welsh?

awec

Irish guys who went to Australia:

Rory Best
Tom Court
Cian Healy
Paul O'Connell
Sean O'Brien
Jamie Heaslip
Conor Murray
Jonathan Sexton
Brian O'Driscoll
Tommy Bowe
Simon Zebo
Rob Kearney

Breaking these guys down into categories (and ignoring all new players):

Definitely not travelling in 2017
POC
BOD
Best
Court
Bowe
Kearney

Most likely not going to travel, due to form or age or alternate options from other nations
Healy (Jack McGrath will take his spot)
Heaslip (I think he'll only bring 2 number 8s in Faletau and Vunipola)

Fighting for a spot
Zebo
SOB (needs to stay fit)

Place on plane assured
Murray
Sexton

bilston

I don't see too many nailed on Irish players at the moment, maybe just three actually

Jack McGrath
Conor Murray
Jonny Sexton


The likes of Iain Henderson, Sean O'Brien (if fit), Jamie Heaslip, Robbie Henshaw and Jared Payne have a very decent chance, but I wouldn't bet the house on any of them.

Teferi

Dillane as a dark horse bolter? If he puts in a good six nations, I could see him going and being part of the midweek team.

Cosmo Kramer

I thought it was a foregone conclusion anyway, let him off with them. They're on a hiding to nothing out there next summer, the fewer of our lads that are involved the better as far as I'm concerned. He got the easy tour in Australia and nearly messed it up, now he's getting the hardest tour. This will be the making or, more likely, the breaking of him.

thomond2006

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

I thought it was a foregone conclusion anyway, let him off with them. They're on a hiding to nothing out there next summer, the fewer of our lads that are involved the better as far as I'm concerned. He got the easy tour in Australia and nearly messed it up, now he's getting the hardest tour. This will be the making or, more likely, the breaking of him.

They will get well paid!

molloyjh

Teferi wrote: »

What irish players do you reckon will be involved? Do you think it will be majority English/Welsh?

As a few have already said McGrath, Murray and Sexton are the only nailed on Irish players. I think Toner might have a shot if he goes well this season. Other than that Heaslip and SOB are possibles but I wouldn't think are in the mix as it stands. Henshaw maybe. That's about it. Unless Stander can force his way in?

bilston

molloyjh wrote: »

Teferi wrote: »

What irish players do you reckon will be involved? Do you think it will be majority English/Welsh?

As a few have already said McGrath, Murray and Sexton are the only nailed on Irish players. I think Toner might have a shot if he goes well this season. Other than that Heaslip and SOB are possibles but I wouldn't think are in the mix as it stands. Henshaw maybe. That's about it. Unless Stander can force his way in?

Toner might have a chance as an alternative to the big beefy English second rows, but it is a really competitive position. Kruis, Itoje and Launchbury from England, AWJ from Wales, Johnny Gray from Scotland and Toner and maybe Henderson from Ireland. I'd say Kruis, Itoje and AWJ are pretty much nailed on at the moment.

irishbucsfan

There were 5 locks in 2013. This time you'd imagine that Itoje and Wyn Jones are absolute certainties (Wyn Jones possible as captain). After them I'd think Jonny Gray and Ian Henderson are likely and then probably one more of the English guys (Kruis or Launchbury or someone like that). I'd say Toner will be very lucky to travel, doesn't fit Gatland's style at all.

For all the toy-throwing, people forget that our forwards were excellent in 2013, among the best forward packs the Lions have produced. I don't really see how Toner fits into that style and it'll be absolutely essential for the Lions to be dominant up front. Henderson is our most likely Lock imo.

swiwi_

Jeepers there is too much bitter lemon already. Sure Gatland is persona non grata on this forum, but the Lions are your team and they will have Irish representation for sure.

Your other options are...indifference...or supporting NZ...

C'mon people we need some healthy banter for the series not a damp squib.

(I think everything in Ireland seems to fall into 2 categories: sainthood or devil incarnate, middle ground doesn't exist...)

Yeah_Right

Gatland would go for Charteris over Toner. Similar players but WG is familiar with one.

As others have said, there's three Irish players who barring injury will definitely be going. There's probably another 8-10 who are contenders depending on form and injuries for them and the others in their positions.

irishbucsfan

swiwi_ wrote: »

Jeepers there is too much bitter lemon already. Sure Gatland is persona non grata on this forum, but the Lions are your team and they will have Irish representation for sure.

Your other options are...indifference...or supporting NZ...

C'mon people we need some healthy banter for the series not a damp squib.

But, he dropped BOD?

swiwi_

FWIW I think McGrath, Dillane, Henderson, a fully fit SOB, Heaslip, Murray, Sexton, Henshaw are all with a decent chance at touring.

Probably the only nailed on is McGrath for me, there is a lot of Lions depth at lock, 9 and 10 in particular.

former total

I think the Lions is a great concept and Gatland is as good a choice of coach as anyone else. They're going to lose but sure winning isn't everything.

Ireland will have 6-7 players in the squad, maybe more with a strong Six Nations.

awec

I will be shocked if there are as many as 6 or 7 irish players, and the idea we'd have more than that is pure fantasy to be honest. It's not being bitter at Gatland, I just think we don't have that many players who'd get into the team right now to play Gatland's way.

swiwi_

awec wrote: »

I will be shocked if there are as many as 6 or 7 irish players, and the idea we'd have more than that is pure fantasy to be honest. It's not being bitter at Gatland, I just think we don't have that many players who'd get into the team right now to play Gatland's way.

For the schedule they'll face they'll need 40+ players. Taking Scotland into account it's hard to see 30 players coming from Wales & England alone.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

I will be shocked if there are as many as 6 or 7 irish players, and the idea we'd have more than that is pure fantasy to be honest. It's not being bitter at Gatland, I just think we don't have that many players who'd get into the team right now to play Gatland's way.

In the starting team? Probably not going to have that many. If they pick Murray/Sexton we could get close, I reckon we'll have two in the pack and maybe Henshaw might get a chance in the backs because he fits the style. We could easilly end up with as few as 2/3 if Webb/Biggar start at half back.

awec

swiwi_ wrote: »

For the schedule they'll face they'll need 40+ players. Taking Scotland into account it's hard to see 30 players coming from Wales & England alone.

They only took 37 to Australia for the same number of fixtures and we had more guys back then who were nailed on for a call up.

There were 25 from England and Wales in Australia.

Yeah_Right

How many players were in the original squad in 2013 and how many more were called up? I'm guessing there'll be 35 in the original party and another dozen will get called up. I just hope they don't go like 2005 with 45 players and 50 odd support staff.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

In the starting team? Probably not going to have that many. If they pick Murray/Sexton we could get close, I reckon we'll have two in the pack and maybe Henshaw might get a chance in the backs because he fits the style. We could easilly end up with as few as 2/3 if Webb/Biggar start at half back.

I'm talking about the squad.

Jaysus, in the starting test team I honestly don't think there is a single Irish player who is the clear choice in their position. Jack McGrath maybe.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

I'm talking about the squad.

Jaysus, in the starting test team I honestly don't think there is a single Irish player who is the clear choice in their position. Jack McGrath maybe.

Well we had the same numbers as the English last time despite doing horrifically in the 6 Nations (2nd from bottom) and none of our players showing any form internationally, so whatever you're smoking I wouldn't mind a little bit of that...

We'll send a couple of front rowers, a few loose forwards, both our half backs and I'd be very surprised if Henshaw is our only outside back travelling.

swiwi_

Think the lions should go for speed at 9, I'd favour Webb. Fly half will depend on 6N form. Lions will need every point they can get so a top goalkicker is a must...Farrell in the mix, to send a further frisson of delight down the forums spine.

As a neutral I look forward to the 6N jostling for positions.

The single most locked on player HAS to be Itoje. If Gatland doesn't pick him then Hansen will...he is an all black after all...

irishbucsfan

swiwi_ wrote: »

Think the lions should go for speed at 9, I'd favour Webb. Fly half will depend on 6N form. Lions will need every point they can get so a top goalkicker is a must...Farrell in the mix, to send a further frisson of delight down the forums spine.

As a neutral I look forward to the 6N jostling for positions.

The single most locked on player HAS to be Itoje. If Gatland doesn't pick him then Hansen will...he is an all black after all...

I think Webb/Biggar are quite likely to play at half back.

We need every point, if only we had the best kicker in world rugby available to us! A halfpenny for Gatland's thoughts on how he solves that problem!

Farrell at 12 is possibly how they solve the continuity problems they had in the last series, a second pivot might be crucial. That's one of the major tactical decisions to be made by whoever takes the backs, go for the Gatlandesque 20-phase series of play or try play short-phase rugby and put ball carriers in midfield. That could be the decision that decides the series.

former total

There's going to a long season of grinding negativity here.

But yeah I'd say 6 players minimum. Even that would be our lowest representation since 2001 when we were a much worse team.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well we had the same numbers as the English last time despite doing horrifically in the 6 Nations (2nd from bottom) and none of our players showing any form internationally, so whatever you're smoking I wouldn't mind a little bit of that...

We'll send a couple of front rowers, a few loose forwards, both our half backs and I'd be very surprised if Henshaw is our only outside back travelling.

Last time we had POC, BOD and Bowe who were all absolute certs to tour.

awec

former total wrote: »

There's going to a long season of grinding negativity here.

But yeah I'd say 6 players minimum. Even that would be our lowest representation since 2001 when we were a much worse team.

Who are the 6 (or more) Irish players you feel are certain to tour?

Nothing about being negative either, that's just rubbish. Being realistic more like. We are not a terrible team full of terrible players but we don't have too many guys who are certain to be on the plane next year.

irishbucsfan

awec wrote: »

Last time we had POC, BOD and Bowe who were all absolute certs to tour.

How many certs you have to tour is completely irrelevant though. Last time Scotland had noone who was a cert and this time I'd say Hogg and Jonny Gray are both certs to tour based on last season, doesn't mean I think they'll have more players on tour.

former total

awec wrote: »

Who are the 6 (or more) Irish players you feel are certain to tour?

Nothing about being negative either, that's just rubbish. Being realistic more like. We are not a terrible team full of terrible players but we don't have too many guys who are certain to be on the plane next year.

Stop being so condescending with your "pure fantasy" and "just rubbish" remarks and I'll engage with you.

awec

former total wrote: »

Stop being so condescending with your "pure fantasy" and "just rubbish" remarks and I'll engage with you.

Perhaps if you refrained from your sanctimonious and patronising "it's going to be a long season of negativity" stuff I wouldn't be so condescending in return.

former total

awec wrote: »

Perhaps if you refrained from your sanctimonious and patronising "it's going to be a long season of negativity" stuff I wouldn't be so condescending in return.

Check the sequence of posts there chief.

molloyjh

Well having a spat isn't going to make anything any better lads.

McGrath, Murray and Sexton will all travel if got. Henshaw, SOB, Heaslip and Stander are all in with a decent shout. I know what people think regarding Toner not suiting the style but I wouldn't be surprised to see him travel of only for mid-week games. Hendo is in with a shout as well. So 5-6 isn't unreasonable. But that's dependent on fitness and form obviously.

We don't have many outstanding individuals compared to other sides. When you have big leaders with huge experience like POC and BOD you have those guys almost always in there. We've few of those guys now.

awec

The breakdown of the original selection last time was

3 lh props
2 th prop
1 ambipropstrous thing
3 hookers
5 locks
5 flankers
2 no8
3 scrumhalfs
2 flyhalves
4 centres
4 wings
3 fullbacks

irishbucsfan

molloyjh wrote: »

Well having a spat isn't going to make anything any better lads.

McGrath, Murray and Sexton will all travel if got. Henshaw, SOB, Heaslip and Stander are all in with a decent shout. I know what people think regarding Toner not suiting the style but I wouldn't be surprised to see him travel of only for mid-week games. Hendo is in with a shout as well. So 5-6 isn't unreasonable. But that's dependent on fitness and form obviously.

We don't have many outstanding individuals compared to other sides. When you have big leaders with huge experience like POC and BOD you have those guys almost always in there. We've few of those guys now.

I think all those guys will travel and I think Henderson is almost a certainty if fit. He covers back row and he's the type of player that Gatland loves.

I also think Best could travel given the other options at hooker and his leadership.

I think Furlong could travel. Maybe we might even see Marty Moore travel if he has a good season (which will come as a shock if the IRFU leave him out in the cold). Let's not forget there's links between his new club and Gatland. There's not that many top class tightheads in Europe and both those guys do a lot of work around the field which we know Gatland likes. Healy could travel if he recovers form, more unlikely in my opinion. Denis Buckley might go as the "uncapped player," let's not forget that tradition.

I've no idea about the backs, I don't even know who will be playing where in the backs for us in the 6 Nations, Payne might put himself on the plane as a very flexible back with a local knowledge. Maybe Olding or Marshall end up having a great 6 Nations in midfield. Maybe Keith Earls or Simon Zebo have a great 6 Nations.

There's plenty of guys who could put their hands up between now and then.

awec

In the backs, I would say (if he keeps the same numbers)

SH: Webb, Murray, Davies/Youngs
FH: Biggar, Sexton
Centre: Davies, Roberts, Farrell, ?? (maybe Tuilagi if he's fit! :pac:)
Wing: North, Zebo?, ??, ??
Full back: Hogg, Halfpenny, Brown

Wing is a problem, can't think of too many players. Put Zebo in but he'll need to play wing for Ireland. I'm sure one of the English wingers will get called, wouldn't be shocked if he picked Amos or someone like that.

Edit: forgot about Earls!

bilston

The Six Nations will dictate who tours. If Ireland win the Six Nations (entirely possible) then we'll have 10+ players. If we finish 3rd or 4th we'll have half that number.

bilston

awec wrote: »

In the backs, I would say (if he keeps the same numbers)

SH: Webb, Murray, Davies/Youngs
FH: Biggar, Sexton
Centre: Davies, Roberts, Farrell, ?? (maybe Tuilagi if he's fit! :pac:)
Wing: North, Zebo?, ??, ??
Full back: Hogg, Halfpenny, Brown

Wing is a problem, can't think of too many players. Put Zebo in but he'll need to play wing for Ireland. I'm sure one of the English wingers will get called, wouldn't be shocked if he picked Amos or someone like that.

Edit: forgot about Earls!

You forgot about Rob Lyttle! Surely he is nailed on already!

irishbucsfan

I'd say Anthony Watson is very likely to be one of the wingers on tour

RichieRich89

Tommy Seymour and Jack Nowell would be others in contention

bilston

Dreadful person (on the pitch) but a terrific player...Liam Williams must have a great chance of making the squad.

AbusesToilets

The less Irish players picked the better tbh. Lions tours always crock the teams that supply the majority of players.

Adbrowne

molloyjh wrote: »

Well having a spat isn't going to make anything any better lads.

McGrath, Murray and Sexton will all travel if got. Henshaw, SOB, Heaslip and Stander are all in with a decent shout. I know what people think regarding Toner not suiting the style but I wouldn't be surprised to see him travel of only for mid-week games. Hendo is in with a shout as well. So 5-6 isn't unreasonable. But that's dependent on fitness and form obviously.

We don't have many outstanding individuals compared to other sides. When you have big leaders with huge experience like POC and BOD you have those guys almost always in there. We've few of those guys now.

I dont think we will have many backrows travel. I reckon Warburton, Faletau, Lydiate, Tipuric, Vunipola, Haskell will all be close to the squad and maybe that lad Davies from the Team GB 7s squad as a bolter. Wouldnt be surprised if Itoje went as a flanker either.

ClanofLams

I will possibly get mocked for this but I'd have Niyi Adeolokun down as a (very) outside bolter. Can see him getting capped in November and maybe becoming first choice for 6N. Were that to happen, he's in the mix.

AbusesToilets

ClanofLams wrote: »

I will possibly get mocked for this but I'd have Niyi Adeolokun down as a (very) outside bolter. Can see him getting capped in November and maybe becoming first choice for 6N. Were that to happen, he's in the mix.

If he keeps up the level from last season, he should definitely be in the conversation as a starter for Ireland. Beyond that, who knows. Earls toured after all.

CatFromHue

Earls is great for a tour like this as he can cover a few positions, in 09 he started games at 15 and 13.

I believe Niyi is an out and out winger which makes it more tricky for him.

Swan Curry

bilston wrote: »

Dreadful person (on the pitch) but a terrific player...Liam Williams must have a great chance of making the squad.

In fairness to him he's cleaned up his act in recent times

twinytwo

I dont think sexton should go... too many warm up games and lets be honest he will be singled out.

Gatty will pick wales go down there get hammered off the pitch. Personally id prefer no Irish involvment with what will turn into a shambles.

I know where Tom Court will be spending his holidays next summer!